Comments on: In Search of Indian Poverty http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/ Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:05:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Seriously Sandeep » Archive » Recalling a Train Journey http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-245757 Seriously Sandeep » Archive » Recalling a Train Journey Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:06 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-245757 [...] About three years ago, Dilip D’Souza concluded that liberalization had done little to improve India’s economy. I had pointed out that his conclusion was fantastic because it was based on just one train journey and a few anecdotal evidences. [...] [...] About three years ago, Dilip D’Souza concluded that liberalization had done little to improve India’s economy. I had pointed out that his conclusion was fantastic because it was based on just one train journey and a few anecdotal evidences. [...]

]]> By: Voice From a 2.5-World Country » Blog Archive » I’m leaving…. http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-123565 Voice From a 2.5-World Country » Blog Archive » I’m leaving…. Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:23:51 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-123565 [...] Here [...] [...] Here [...]

]]> By: Yazad http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-9236 Yazad Mon, 02 May 2005 15:32:28 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-9236 Your piece inspired me to respond to Dilip on rediff. Read it <a href="http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/may/02guest1.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. And thanks! Your piece inspired me to respond to Dilip on rediff. Read it here. And thanks!

]]> By: uspeed http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8802 uspeed Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:05:32 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8802 >> Why don’t you get your own domain? That would be too much work for me :-D >> Why don’t you get your own domain?

That would be too much work for me :-D

]]> By: Sandeep http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8745 Sandeep Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:04:54 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8745 Right. For a multi-talented guy like DDD, trying to be liberal, politically-correct, minority-rights-upholder, anti-riot crusader, economist... phew! it's asking for too much. Right on spot, uspeed. BTW, I visit your blog quite often nowadays. Why don't you get your own domain? Right. For a multi-talented guy like DDD, trying to be liberal, politically-correct, minority-rights-upholder, anti-riot crusader, economist… phew! it’s asking for too much. Right on spot, uspeed. BTW, I visit your blog quite often nowadays. Why don’t you get your own domain?

]]> By: uspeed http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8640 uspeed Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:30:43 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8640 >> Don’t jump up in joy when he says that “reforms must happen”. Let him spell out what those reforms are, and whether the current set of reforms militate against them. Hey, cut the guy some slack :-D that would be too much work :-P >> Don’t jump up in joy when he says that “reforms must happen”. Let him spell out what those reforms are, and whether the current set of reforms militate against them.

Hey, cut the guy some slack :-D that would be too much work :-P

]]> By: ABC http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8603 ABC Thu, 28 Apr 2005 05:21:52 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8603 Uspeed, I thought the argument is whether the lot of the poor has improved, not whether the pace of improvement is good enough. Of course, what pace of improvement can be good enough? You are trying to read in the D'Souza piffle arguments he does not make. The D'Souza argument almost always rests on redefining words to mean the opposite of what they conventionally mean. Don't jump up in joy when he says that "reforms must happen". Let him spell out what those reforms are, and whether the current set of reforms militate against them. Uspeed, I thought the argument is whether the lot of the poor has improved, not whether the pace of improvement is good enough. Of course, what pace of improvement can be good enough?

You are trying to read in the D’Souza piffle arguments he does not make. The D’Souza argument almost always rests on redefining words to mean the opposite of what they conventionally mean. Don’t jump up in joy when he says that “reforms must happen”. Let him spell out what those reforms are, and whether the current set of reforms militate against them.

]]> By: uspeed http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8574 uspeed Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:18:25 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8574 One can cite figures that a lot fewer Indians are sleeping on an empty stomach today as compared to 15 years ago, but there have been other negatives: pollution, big ticket corruption, .. And a (usually) full stomach is hardly the thing that can enable the poor to participate fully in a global economy. In the absence of this, the only thing the poor shall get is the crumbs via a trickle down of the economic prosperity, nothing more. Perhaps, a better distribution of investment could have yielded better returns. For instance, what do you need first, better highways or better schools ? Its not the answer here that matters, but its a matter of concern that questions like this are not even asked in India today. Just as we were asked to believe in the Socialist credo earlier, we are being blasted with propoganda of a different kind today. For e.g. the expenditure on education, health care appears to have stagnated, or at least its not very *visible* in the same way that IT/Bangalore, 100 million phones, 1 million cars an year etc are visible. Dilip of course is a fool to ignore all the visible changes that have happened, but so are we, if we ignore the things that have not changed yet, and will need substantial effort/investment/time to change. One can cite figures that a lot fewer Indians are sleeping on an empty stomach today as compared to 15 years ago, but there have been other negatives: pollution, big ticket corruption, .. And a (usually) full stomach is hardly the thing that can enable the poor to participate fully in a global economy. In the absence of this, the only thing the poor shall get is the crumbs via a trickle down of the economic prosperity, nothing more.

Perhaps, a better distribution of investment could have yielded better returns. For instance, what do you need first, better highways or better schools ? Its not the answer here that matters, but its a matter of concern that questions like this are not even asked in India today. Just as we were asked to believe in the Socialist credo earlier, we are being blasted with propoganda of a different kind today.

For e.g. the expenditure on education, health care appears to have stagnated, or at least its not very *visible* in the same way that IT/Bangalore, 100 million phones, 1 million cars an year etc are visible.

Dilip of course is a fool to ignore all the visible changes that have happened, but so are we, if we ignore the things that have not changed yet, and will need substantial effort/investment/time to change.

]]> By: uspeed http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8573 uspeed Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:33 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8573 Excerpt from the linked article. >> There's no doubt in my mind: reforms must happen. But 15 years after the process began, I can't help feeling that something is wrong about the way we are pursuing them. For I am yet to see the one effect they must have, first and above all: a visible lessening in the level of Indian poverty. Fewer poor Indians around us. I can't see that. I dont think he is arguing against reforms per se, deap within, he knows that that debate is already over. I think he is arguing for a more vigorous reforms program, and a stronger investment in the social sector (mid day meals, primary health care, stronger investment in education) and so on. Personally, I find this unexceptionable. But he does have a round about way of saying things.. :-D Excerpt from the linked article.

>> There’s no doubt in my mind: reforms must happen. But 15 years after the process began, I can’t help feeling that something is wrong about the way we are pursuing them. For I am yet to see the one effect they must have, first and above all: a visible lessening in the level of Indian poverty. Fewer poor Indians around us. I can’t see that.

I dont think he is arguing against reforms per se, deap within, he knows that that debate is already over. I think he is arguing for a more vigorous reforms program, and a stronger investment in the social sector (mid day meals, primary health care, stronger investment in education) and so on. Personally, I find this unexceptionable. But he does have a round about way of saying things.. :-D

]]> By: Murali http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8528 Murali Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:49:23 +0000 http://www.sandeepweb.com/2005/04/27/in-search-of-indian-poverty/#comment-8528 Dilip's arguments contain more fallacy - look at his analogy of the muck heap. He assumes that ALL the poverty occured in the last 50 years and 15 years constitute one-third of that. The fact is that the impoverisation of India started long before, with colonization, perhaps even before. Maybe India never was rich, for all we know. If his analogy was like 'my great great grand father started accumulating the muck when he was young..' it would make better sense. Another fallacious assumption of Dilip's is that creation and eradication of poverty are symmetric processes. It is possible to create abject poverty in a few years - Idi Amin and Pol Pot will vouch for that. Reducing poverty is a much more difficult task. So, even if all the povety in India is the result of the last 50 years, 15 years is too short a time to eradicate even one-third of that. However, I feel we have done pretty well in terms of poverty reduction, struggling as we are against heavy odds. Dilip’s arguments contain more fallacy - look at his analogy of the muck heap. He assumes that ALL the poverty occured in the last 50 years and 15 years constitute one-third of that. The fact is that the impoverisation of India started long before, with colonization, perhaps even before. Maybe India never was rich, for all we know. If his analogy was like ‘my great great grand father started accumulating the muck when he was young..’ it would make better sense. Another fallacious assumption of Dilip’s is that creation and eradication of poverty are symmetric processes. It is possible to create abject poverty in a few years - Idi Amin and Pol Pot will vouch for that. Reducing poverty is a much more difficult task. So, even if all the povety in India is the result of the last 50 years, 15 years is too short a time to eradicate even one-third of that. However, I feel we have done pretty well in terms of poverty reduction, struggling as we are against heavy odds.

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