I gave up reading the bleeding heart Other Idiots India blog, which is another loony leftist hole; given my somewhat-dimmed propensity to dissect Leftist crap, several readers have asked me why I haven’t dissected the Other India. If the previous line sounds pompous/patronizing I assure you, that wasn’t the intent. Rather, the intent is to answer all those readers: that site isn’t worth it. One, they’ve made up their mind what they want to conclude and spin endless yarn around the same thing. Any attempt to debate has proved futile: evidence, the steep decrease in the number of comments. Response to opposing viewpoints on that blog is typically characterized by burying said viewpoints under a mountain of incomprehensible tripe. Case in point: the merit versus social justice argument. That merit and excellence alone help any endeavour is basic commonsense. But that won’t do in the Other India. They actually bring up “evidence” against merit.
Emerson famously said (in a different context though) there comes (is) a time in every man’s education. Such a time has arrived in this blog’s education where I’ve decided to break my silence on the Other India.
Courtesy, this piece of crap by Annie, who by the way, also runs a whiny blog. This time she has chosen to let her heart bleed for shit-lifters, and traces their plight to the Rig Veda.
Research and history tell us that manual scavengers - who are to the bottom of the caste pyramid, much below other dalits, have never been given a choice in this affair of shit-lifting.
Read the Rig Veda. It began as early as then. The day it was decided that we were going to have four varnas, and that one of these varnas was going to do all the stuff you didn’t want to do - would be forced to do it, and would never be allowed to do anything else - the fate of manual scavengers was sealed.
She writes with such authority that would make us quake in our shoes. Since she’s brought this up, the onus lies on her to answer some of these questions:
1. Show me just one place in the Rig Veda where this is written.
2. Annie, have you read the Rig Veda? If yes, where does this occur? I want you to quote from the Rig Veda itself, not some moonbat’s translation.
3. You say “the day it was decided that we were going to have four varnas.” Can you tell me whom do you mean when you say “we decided to…?” If you can’t answer that, can you at least tell me who decided to have the Varna system?
4. What exactly is your understanding of the term Varna? Is it caste, or something else? Please susbstantiate with evidence.
5. You say further, “and that one of these varnas was going to do all the stuff you didn’t want to do.” How did you arrive at this? Again, some evidence from primary sources, please?
6. Furthermore, “…and would never be allowed to do anything else.” How’re you this dead sure that it was this rigid, starting right at the Rig Vedic period you quote?
7. And later, down in the article you spout, “Untouchability has its roots in this concept of ‘purity’ and ‘pollution’. In the concept of caste itself.” On what basis do you say this? What EXACTLY do you think is the concept of caste? What’s your source of information on this?
8. And please don’t expose your ignorance by lines like this one: “After all, before the Aryan era, during the Harappan civilization, India had very well-planned toilet systems.” Lady, have you bothered to update your education from where you left off–after your sixth standard history?
9. This one is pure ROTFL:
Go to ‘primitive’ cultures, go to tribal societies. You may have some sort of class hierarchy but you will never find anybody lifting another’s shit.
You write with such confidence as though you’ve personally seen all those tribal cultures and societies. Just a blanket statement, no evidence whatsoever. Or perhaps you’ll “find evidence” when it is convenient: like quoting the Rig Veda. But wait! “class hierarchy” explains all! The ONE SOLUTION that Reverend Marx gave the world. Assume all social structures across the world are identical: find an Oppressed and Oppressor class to solve the wretched problem of inequality. And round off your drivel with a flourish:
.that is why manual scavenging is not just an economic issue. It is a caste issue. It is a gender issue. It is a race issue. It is an oppression issue.
Why stop at that? It is a social issue. It is a communal issue. It is a communist issue. It is a capitalist issue. It is a religious issue. It is a fundamentalist issue. It is an intellectual issue. It is a literary issue. Go on.
More seriously, Annie, this is an open challenge. I know I’ve been harsh but I’ll adopt a supremely polite stance if you begin answering all the issues I’ve raised above, between #1 to # 9.
Go on, make a beginning.
Postscript: I’m infinitely grateful to Nilu for the link.
Tags: History, Indian Politics, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, Society & Culture, War on Communism, Weblogs
I’m sure you do realise that it is not very difficult to do what you have done above.
I grew up a ‘Brahmin’ and terribly orthodox at that. People who ate meat were unclean. People who scavenged were impure and you were not to touch them or else you had to have a bath immediately. There was no outright ‘prejudice’ against these people. It was just that they were Others.
#1 : Maybe you cannot show a single place in the Vedas where such work has communal sanction. Does it detract from the consideration that the practice dates back till then? Or thereabouts?
#2 : Not much sense in responding to this. Maybe you haven’t. Maybe you are only quoting from someone else who asserts that he/she has. It does not matter.
#3 : We do not know who decided to have the Varna system ( or division of labour, if I am not terribly wrong ). We have been led to believe that the practice dates back to antiquity. Its a little trite to argue that those who got the practice implemented are not us. We ( as a people ) are complicit in the sustenance of the practice. Assuming that the division of labour was ( logically at least ) reasonable and well-intended, it is not unreasonable to assume, that the present practice is a corrupted ( over period of time ) system ( which is natural and human ) having derived itself therefrom. So, maybe you won’t find a mention in the Vedas, maybe not an explicit sanction. But it exists, and it is not new.
#4 : If I remember my Sanskrit from school, it means ’section’ / ‘part’. Use a little common sense ( as you would like to ) and you can almost visualise the natural progression to nebulous ‘class’ and so on to rigidly crystallised ‘caste’. So what is your point?
#5 : It, probably was never intended so, but that seems pretty much the way that it has mutated over the ages ( Very ‘human’, in the Indian context - would you disagree ? ). It is a pity we do not have too many records of people documenting these transitional processes over the years.
#6 : You’re probably right - it is difficult to imagine it being so rigid earlier on. But that’s the way things happen…rigor mortis sets in. And you know what happens thereafter.
#7 : Hmmm…you know, it could be right. The notion of ‘untouchability’ hits too close to home with the associated notions of ‘purity’ and ‘pollution’. Since these concepts are not self-illuminated and self-evident when it comes to cross-section social intercourse, ‘caste’ becomes a well-referenced marker and, oh so convenient. As humans, our entire civilisation is based on the idea of convenience; or would you vehemently disagree?
#8 : Ah well, so people were detailed to lift human waste even prior to the periods that you allude to. What difference does it make?
#9 : Ah well. you are most unkind. You have to permit a little literary and emotive flourish to professional writers.
So, where were we?
The folks at The Other India are well intentioned but too emotional. The emotion clouds their judgement and they unwittingly support a system that should be their primary target. Characteristic of rebellious young people.
Ask Annie to interview the same Shit lifters whether anyone from their community is benefitting from the quota system ? Ask if they are classified as SC or merely as OBC (you will be surprised) ? Run a profile of the “shit liftees” - they lift crap from OBC, muslim, and christian houses too.
Let us all sign an online petition to ask the government to collect data about the night soil carriers and subsequently create a sub quota for them within SCs or OBCs or MBCs. The test of their sincerity is whether they would support such a move.
You hit the nail on the head about the tribals. We need this type of impassionate data. It can be easily proven that even 60-100 years back most houses did not really have any sanitation. They crapped in the open fields and bathed in the pond/river/well. Only the dubashes, zamins, jagirdards had havelis with dry latrines. Ironically most zamins at least in the south are now classified as OBCs.
WillOWisp
Pressed for time so will respond in parts.
>>Maybe you cannot show a single place in the Vedas where such work has communal sanction. Does it detract from the consideration that the practice dates back till then? Or thereabouts?
Then why did she say “Read the Rig Veda? As to when it dates back, the issue is under dispute so I’m sure you’ll agree that it makes for bad argument to quote something under dispute as a valid point.
>>Not much sense in responding to this. Maybe you haven’t. Maybe you are only quoting from someone else who asserts that he/she has. It does not matter.
It does matter. When you make an assertion like “Read the Vedas, you should’ve read them yourself” because you know your blogpost will be commented upon. That’s the reason I said give me primary sources. As for me, I have learnt it (by rote) at the proverbial feet of a Guru. Empty assertions don’t hold much water.
>> We do not know who decided to have the Varna system ( or division of labour, if I am not terribly wrong ). We have been led to believe that the practice dates back to antiquity.
Partly agree. But we have been led to believe a LOT of falsehoods: Aryan Invasion, etc. The varna system as division of labour only covers part of the defintion.
More later.
Thanks.
On reconsideration, let’s assume that she is misguided, if not outright ‘loony’. Let’s also assume that the practice came about through its institutionalisation through the British administration ( who knows ? - reasonable? ), who needed it; and we have seized upon as a prized legacy since then. Or for that matter, lets even say that the practice is a generation old ( folklore / history of the communities concerned be damned ). The fact that cannot be denied is that it exists, as it does today. Does it have to? Exist as it does? Breed itself as it does?
On an aside - Emotion does not necessarily cloud judgement. Sometimes, it propels it.
Sandeep
Came back to the blog after a long time due to a hectic schedule. Nice piece here. I read Annie’s reply to you. As expected no direct answers to your questions. Just accusations and nicely worded prose about themselves.
Willothewasp
On reconsideration, let’s assume that she is misguided, if not outright ‘loony’.
The main question here is how she claims to have quoted directly from the Rigveda. When one claims ‘xxxxx is written in the Rigveda, one should have the necessary information. - Not claiming so and so wrote in such and such a publication on the Rigveda and I have quoted from there - Which Annie has not even done.
Moreover if anybody has been following arguments and some writing on history recently, the Aryan invasion theory has been disproved.
Reality Check
Do not agree with this statement ‘ The folks at The Other India are well intentioned but too emotional’
There seems to be an agenda at the Other India. Mainly be a cheerleader for the ruling party and all their hare-brained schemes. For example read Dilip Dsouza’s latest eulogy on Manmohan Singh’s humiliating behavior at Havana.
Moreover you have to be their yes-man. Once you disagree as I did with Uma once, you are blacklisted and they go into a sulk refusing to debate further or moderating your comments. Dilip - is an exception. I have to admit he carries on the debate not simply refuse to answer.
Some more on Annie - In the comments section on the Sabarimala controversy she had written some sarcastic piece on the pundits involved. When I replied to her piece and referenced something about her co-religionists, she as usual did not reply
Niketan-
* WARNING - I do not know any of these folks personally. You can substitute their names with your favorite young rebels if you wish*
I doubt if Shivam and Annie (I may be wrong) have an agenda. They just seem to be young people who think they are rebelling against something. In reality, they end up supporting the very system they should be rebelling against. A case in point is this story of shit lifters.
No doubt this is a moving story. I can also tell moving stories of Arunthatiyars - whos job is to take in dead animals, strip out their entrails, skin them, and beat the raw hides with a stick. Narikuravas move from town to town, living under plastic sheets, may eat crows and squirrels they hunt using a catapult. No shit, this happens to this day.
These youngsters - who are typically urban middle or upper class - are just finding these things out and are outraged. They will not support you because they are lashing out at anything in their sight.
Their main concern is “who did this to them dammit” instead of “why are they still in this position after 60 years of independence” ?
Someone should sit them down and tell them - “dont waste your time trying to find out the culprits - everyone one of us is responsible for this society”. Spend your time getting outraged at “why there is no future for them”.
40+ year olds on the other hand (Abi/Dilip) are experienced enough to know where the problems lie. Yet, they might have a leftist agenda they are pushing. The fact that they got these young people lined up to support this broken system of social justice - is a sign of their victory.
Just an idle reflection … at Spend your time getting outraged at “why there is no future for them”.
Isn’t it a pity that our political commentators / bloggers / debators are people with no personal / individual experience of public administration, war, policing, policy-making, politics?
The problem with shaping public opinion is that, at best ( or worst ), incites political appeasement. Developing and Impacting Ideology might be more dangerous, but it produces far deeper-reaching consequences, not all of which are necessarily bad …
Appropos after 60 years of Independence, experience teaches you ( along with a bit of wisdom ), that it is yet just 60 years since then… Join the above efforts if you are feeling just that bit impatient.
Will-o-the-wisp -
Everyone has their own style of helping. Some make noises some dont. Send me an email - I will tell you the activities I am involved in. No, I did not give my life in a war yet. That does not mean I cant talk about others who do.
I can tell you that I have travelled quite a bit and interacted with many. I can assure you that 60 years is a *LOT* of time to turn a society around.
Every society has had its oppressors and oppresed. Legions of chinese were living in conditions not much better than pig styies - living a dazed existance on opium. Now half of India will immigrate to china if given half a chance.
Wake up, the time is now. We cant wait forever. Let us work towards fast tracking the really needy into society.
So I invite *you* to join me in these efforts.
“experience teaches you ( along with a bit of wisdom ), that it is yet just 60 years since then… Join the above efforts if you are feeling just that bit impatient.”
>>>Experience in the Soviet Union taught Primakov kind of economics, only that it doesn’t work today. 60 yrs. is a long long time and most humans have achieved changes within one generation. If America had its greatest generation, we have our own wasted (socialist, obviously) generation. That experience doesn’t count for much and people touting the experience of wasted generation will do well to start afresh. When experience trumps reason, waste follows. We should not let that happen again, NEVER.
Will’O
>>Isn’t it a pity that our political commentators / bloggers / debators are people with no personal / individual experience of public administration, war, policing, policy-making, politics?
How can you say that with such certainty? Realitycheck has answered appropriately so I won’t bother repeating the same points.
And why is it a pity? Why do you forget that the founders of several hugely successful political movements in the West were these very people who didn’t have any “practical experience?” Also, why don’t you recount the names of all those writers whose works influenced statesmen and laymen alike?
>>The problem with shaping public opinion is that, at best ( or worst ), incites political appeasement.
Not always. Every idea has opponents and there are definitely some disgruntled people whom you cannot simply convince. It doesn’t mean the way out to deal with such people is appeasement. Appeasement never works.
>>Appropos after 60 years of Independence, experience teaches you ( along with a bit of wisdom ), that it is yet just 60 years since then…
60 years is a short time? How long do you think it took Singapore to transform itself?
I’m no student of Economcs and pretty much a professional political neutralist, so I would not know much about the various -isms that are being talked about. I read a strong undercurrent of tension / distrust of socialism / the left in this blog and some others linked from here. I would not like to assume so easily that the people who institutionalised it were naive ( for want of a better word ) - hence a question : Is it that the ideology was flawed or its succesive implemenmtations? Could it also be that the present state of the system ( if not good enough ) is due to insufficient personal motivation / professional imagination of succeeding generations ( who also seem to have developed a heightened degree of personal interest { read corruptibility } )?
I feel that the notion of learned public debate would acquire a meaningful dimension, only if people from the spheres of public life / works were an integral part of it, which is not the case. Hence, my statement that it is a pity.
Harnessing the potential of ( at least superficially ) homogeneous ( in comparison )cultures such as China and Singapore or for that matter the US, Germany, UK and France is a different cup of tea from that of a state such as India. I feel compelled to reiterate that it is just sixty years since Independence and it would assist in formulating a less-strident and more-balanced perspective, if one were to view it so, without going in for pointless comparisons.
P.S. There seems to be a problem with the comments on this page …
[...] What I’m talking about instead is about our bleeding heart Annie whom this blog had covered earlier. Her heart bleeds for street children. Again. [...]