I had called for an open debate on Annie’s assertions about the Rig Vedic origins of shit-lifters (that’s her term, not mine). To her credit, she responded, a tepid fare compared to spirited tone of her original shit-lifting post. It’s doubly tepid because it’s sooo disappointing. Here’s an excerpt:
…and oh, there have been found Harappan civilzation (no varna/caste) excavations at Lothal, dating at least 2400 BC, if not 2500 BC. good sewage systems. which 6th std history books do not talk about, strangely. the Aryan era (Rigvedic era) is pegged at about 1700 BC.
All the more reason for Annie to update her stagnant knowledge of ancient Indian history. Repeat infinitely: there was nothing like an Aryan Invasion. Perhaps, she’d like to start with this blog. And thanks for pointing me to that Frontline article. You naturally link to an article that supports your perspective; how about linking something that carries an opposing/different perspective? And isn’t it generally accepted that Frontline is a…err…humour magazine?
And she follows that up with this line:
Just think a little about that, dear dissector of leftist crap (you do wear gloves, I hope
)
Yeah, sometimes I do wear them, but there’re some kinds of crap which slip through if I wear gloves. Your post is one such example.
As for the rest, I carry on my dissection without making any noises that generally go in this vein: oppressed, downtrodden, caste-evil…
I still notice that you have answered almost none of my points but have continued your obsession with shit-lifting?
Tags: History, Indian Politics, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, Society & Culture, War on Communism, Weblogs
I posted this on the OtherIndia site. Reproduced here just in case Annie’s friends pull a trick on us and censor this comment.
Zx Sep 27th, 2006 at 12:54 am
>> It is all too easy to blame everything on either the muslims or the british.
But it is to vent spleen on Rig Veda and blame everything on Hinduism eh? With half-baked knowledge on “Aryans” to boot?
>> if you do want to accuse muslims of something, go out and do a little research first
Good suggestion. But when you glibly claim:
>> Scholars have noted that the first instances of manual scavenging were noted in the Narada Samhita
Which “scholars”? Can you name three?
Scout the net and you find only one repeatedly mentioned, invariably a leftist site: “Gita Ramaswamy”. ScholarS?
But let’s take her claim that Narad Samhita — apparently an astrological treatise — lists the duties of slaves and scavenging figures among them. Two points: how does that establish that there were scavenging castes? two. does the alleged mention of a practice in a book conclusively tie that practice to the followers of a religion? do we know for certain that people in Arabia were also not putting slaves to such miserable use? This weirdo logic would suggest that Christians invented sodomy because the practice figures in the bible
Not only were there no scavenging castes before Muslim invasions, but Hindus did not need scavengers, because they did not use latrines. Another text — that favorite one Hindu-baiters routinely use to bash Hinduism, Manusmriti — lays down that people must defacate at a distance of 150 feet to source of water. (And by the way, how come manusmriti, though it lays down defacation rules, doesn’t mention manual scavenging at all?)
Moreover, striking a blow to annie’s refined sensitivities, the shit economy isn’t alien to Muslims either. There are bhangis among Muslims:
“A Bhangi, either Muslim or non-Muslim, is not permitted to enter a mosque no matter how clean he may be at the time. Although in theory a Muslim Bhangi or Chamar is allowed to offer his prayer[s] in a mosque, but in usual practice their entrance into such pious places as mosques and shrines of Muslim saints is socially disapproved and thus it is resisted. Even if they could get into a mosque or shrine, provided they have had a bath and are dressed in clean clothes, they do not usually proceed beyond the entrance steps. In contrast to the Hindu caste system, Muslim Bhangis are allowed to learn the Quran, but they are not expected to teach it.
It is a common practice observed in almost all the households of Ashraf, Muslim Rajputs, and the clean occupational castes, that Bhangis, either Muslim or non-Muslim, are generally served food in their own containers. If they do not have their own bowls they are served in clay pots which are not again used to serve clean caste members. Bhangis are given water to drink in such a way that the jar does not touch even their lips”
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_karan_caste.htm
>> would be nice if you could deal with this business of caste and related problems, without trying to find an ‘outsider’ scapegoat.
Guess what? That’s precisely what “scholarS” do when pointed out that caste is as firmly entrenched amongst Muslims and Christians as among Hindus. Of course, they first try denial, when that doesn’t work, blame Hinduism! Lily-white Islam and Christianity wouldn’t have bad practices like caste discrimination if they weren’t “polluted” by that dreaded “other”: Hinduism.
>> don’t you think that there would have been similar problems in Arabia and Syria and Iran and so on?
And what makes you think there weren’t? Do you have evidence that slaves were not put to scavenging use in Arabia?
But we do know — and there is direct textual reference to it in Muslim scriptures — that Islam allowed the owning of slaves.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/says_about/slavery.html
Zx,
Wow!
That’s it!
Hi! Sandeep read this…
Hi! annie such a lively debate was on at Sandeep’s,we all were waiting for you.But in vain.
Hi! come back and share your wisdom with us.
Do post at sandeep we are waiting.
Regards
# posted by Anil Joshi : 8:20 PM
anonymous: enlightened again. thanks
buzz: yes, I’ve heard of the film. have read a lot about it but have not yet seen it.
anil: i tried wading through it, but after a bit, the lively debate lost me. sorry, but have been the unwilling centre of such lively debates in the past, and their charm is lost on me. but do make my excuses to those lovely people I’ve kept waiting… and for more of my wisdom, keep coming back here or to HTOHL. I shall not disappoint.
# posted by annie : 6:32 PM
Anil Joshi said…
Hi! Annie,Thanks for the invitation.I prefer dialogues over monologues and that is why I sit silently and listen to both points of views.
As for monologues,I chat with me, which again is a dialogue with your inner self.
Writing long monologues and claiming to be a repostry of wisdom is to me, is Preposterous.
Regards,
Anil Joshi
2:21 PM
[...] What I’m talking about instead is about our bleeding heart Annie whom this blog had covered earlier. Her heart bleeds for street children. Again. [...]