Book Review: AAVARANA

Aavarana is a book Indian secular intellectuals love to hate but cannot ignore. The “average reader” (which increasingly means someone endowed with commonsense, a healthy sense of balance, and has not mortgaged brains at the ideological altar) chose to respond differently. In the miniscule market for Kannada fiction, Aavarna has seen nine reprints in just four months since it was first published in February this year. This however, is not a significant measure of its success.

Aavarana owes its success by justifying what its title signifies.

In the preface to the book, S L Bhyrappa, the author of Aavarana expounds the meaning of Aavarana. To this end, he draws from such diverse primary sources as Nagarjuna, Vedanta, and Advaita. He captures the essence of Aavarana as Maya and Avidya. Aavarana is an illusion, a veil–a suppression of the real nature of things.

Aavarana is perhaps the first novel in recent times that deals with an explosive theme in a world dangerously supercharged with political correctness. It is notable for another substantial reason. Of all his works, Aavarana contains marked political undertones like in no other Bhyrappa work–not even the epic Tanthu (Strand). Aavarana marks a complete departure from all of Bhyrappa’s works in terms of theme, form and content.

In just about 300 pages, Aavarna uncovers the flimsy lid on top of the abyss of Islam’s encounters with India. It is simultaneously historical and contemporary because it exposes the contemporary manipulation of history justified in the garb of preserving secularism.

Aavarana opens with Razia, a middle-aged feminist filmmaker mulling over the ruins at Hampi. She’s there with her husband, Ameer to make a government-sponsored documentary on Hampi. The goal of the documentary ostensibly, is to project Hampi as a symbol of Hindu-Muslim brotherhood. Her research slowly leads her to doubt the history she has learned to believe, and takes her back in time to examine her own life so far. News of her father’s sudden death takes her back in space to her native village near Hassan. As she examines his personal effects, she is astonished to find his library stocked with volumes of scholarly literature about Islam’s encounters with India. She reads his detailed notes on almost every page of each book and suddenly recalls what he had told her when she had announced her decision to marry Ameer: Lakshmi, some day in future, your own descendants will destroy temples. (Ed: liberal paraphrased translation)

Lakshmi’s past provokes her again. As a bright graduate blazing her way towards success as a feminist filmmaker, she decides to marry her classmate, Ameer. Both are products of the ’60s secular/progressive school of thought that shuns artificial barriers of caste and religion. However, when she marries Ameer, it never occurs to her why she should convert to Islam, and change her name despite Ameer’s disbelief in said artificial obstacles to True Love. Her first tryst with beef-eating poses similar problems. She self-justifies them all but isn’t fully convinced till her fateful visit to Hampi. Her son, a PG from a US university has found a job in Saudi Arabia. He is a product of the modern world unable to reconcile its ways with his newfound zeal for the “pure” Islamic way of life. Living in Saudi Arabia, he firmly veers towards Islam.

Lakshmi/Razia stays back at her village and begins reading the copious literature her father has left behind. What she learns horrifies her. She decides to write a novel on it.

From here on, Aavarna alternates between Lakshmi/Razia and her novel. S. L Bhyrappa uses the play-within-a-play technique.

Lakshmi/Razia’s novel starts with the conquest of a tiny Hindu kingdom by Mughal hordes. Everybody except the teenaged-crown prince dies in the encounter. The kingdom’s family diety is smashed, trampled upon, and desecrated and the prince taken prisoner, converted and renamed to Khwaja Jahan. Khwaja Jahan wonders why they spared him. It takes him exactly one painful encounter to realize that his innocent, boyish face has caught the commander’s fancy. He is given special attention for a few weeks. Some days later, he is treated to a nice drink, which makes him drowsy, and then he’s semi-conscious. Two powerfully-built men hold his legs while a third uses wooden tongs to castrate him. The commander pleasures himself with the boy and later, sells him as a slave.

Khwaja Jahan realizes that he’s just one among tens of thousands of such castrated males. He is made in charge of guarding the quarters of a commander’s mansion of concubines. The rest of Lakshmi’s novel chronicles Khwaja Jahan’s experiences in this role.

Aavarana bares the excesses of the Mughal slave system in horrid detail. Equally, it describes how Islamic rule destroyed centuries of lofty civilization and wounded an entire way of life. It shows the painful struggles of people fighting to preserve it. Khwaja Jahan’s dialogue with a Sadhu on the banks of the Ganga in Benares is heart-rending to read. At one level, Aavarana is difficult to read without squirming at the atrocities an entire civilization has gone through.

Aavarana’s singular merit is just one shocking symbolism. Khwaja Jahan’s violent castration shows exactly where Islamic imperialism aimed at. To an extent it is also a measure of its success. It is also interesting that the success rate of a person staying alive after this kind of violent castration was very low. But Khwaja Jahan stays alive, another symbol of the plight of Hindu civilization under Islamic rule. For instance, Hindus suffered on a massive scale during the more bloodier part of Mughal rule under Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb. Unarguably, Aurangzeb inflicted the most damage on Hindu ethos and populace than any other Islamic ruler. Lakshmi/Razia finds it tragic that today’s Delhi has a road named after Aurangzeb, a monument to remember a barbarian. In a way, Khwaja Jahan symbolizes an emaciated India that was never prepared for, and reeled under repeated waves of invasions, which had their roots in religious ideology.

Aavarana has understandably outraged intellectuals/progressives/secularists/writers in Karnataka. I’ve written about Professor Shastri in my earlier post so I don’t need to cover that again. S.L Bhyrappa contends that it is dishonest to conceal historical facts on the (flimsy) excuse of promoting communal harmony/secularism. Aavarna raises the important question of Hinduism vis-a-vis Islam and Christianity. Hindus have admitted to several social evils and set themselves on corrective action–Mahatma Gandhi’s emancipation of Harijans, etc. The West rejected Christianity as a guide/means to rule the state, embraced democracy, etc. Why don’t we see a similar introspection among the Muslims?

A few critics also raise the why-Aavarana-now question. The answer is buried in the question. How long do we want to ignore the obvious threat of Islamic fundamentalism? Not much has changed in Islam from Aurangzeb’s time to now. Bin Laden is merely Aurangzeb’s cousin in time. The same ideological compulsions motivated them both. Aavarana explores precisely these compulsions laid down in Islamic literature starting with the Quran. Besides, much of what passes as India’s medieval “history” is mere interpretation. In other words, a veil, concealment of facts, Aavarana. More fundamentally, has concealing/falsifying history really ensured communal harmony?

Finally, the reactions to Aavarana–while they were expected–also reveal the tragic depths we’ve plumbed. Kannada has a rich repository of historical novels that includes Masti’s Chikaveera Rajendra, Korati’s Paramesha Pulikeshi, and Ta Ra Su’s Durgastamana (Durga’s Sunset). Durgastamana describes the fall and destruction of Chitradurga under the Nayakas when Hyder Ali attacked Chitradurga. Durgastamana is still hailed as a classic in Kannada literature. I wonder how our progressives would react if he’d written Durgastamana now.

Postscript: It is only available in Kannada now but it is worth more than the 200 Rupees (approx) it costs.

Crossposted on Desicritics.

186 comments for “Book Review: AAVARANA

  1. December 31, 2013 at 3:24 PM

    now it is available in Gujarati also @ Rs 200 only…. it is very good book… Writer has sown us real History of last 1000 years & it is covered in just 300 pages book

  2. kK
    November 6, 2012 at 11:22 AM

    The more I read about Islam, the more I realize it is a pure and unadulterated force of barbarity.

    Their civilization achieved nothing in the past 1400 years and whenever it finds something/someone far more superior to itself, it seeks to destroy it.

    Bhyrappa expresses in a few sentences what our intellectual worthies will not be capable of expressing in a few lifetimes.

  3. November 19, 2011 at 7:10 AM

    THUMBA THUMBA CHENNAGIDE! I just finished reading it. Amazing! Fantastic, Superb, Thrilling and Disturbing – all at the same time! MUST READ for every one! Dhanyavaada Sandeep’avare, nimme blognindane ee pustakagaLa parichayavaautu. (Thank you Sandeep’ji I got to know about SLB’s books through youyr blog though my uncle used to talk about him ~20 years ago, I was a kid still then! )

    MANDRA is next on my list :-)

  4. K P Ganesh
    June 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM

    Sri. S L Bhyrappa’s Aavarana has just gone for it’s 26th re-print. It’s a huge success. Your blog spot on Aavarana is being discussed in Breaking India forum. Hari Om.

  5. Deepak Arekal
    July 15, 2008 at 3:06 PM

    I admire Ravi Belegere as a novelist. he has written quite good novels such as “MATAGATI” , “MANDOVI”, “HELI HOGU KARANA” these are really excellent work. I really do not even bother about the his writings about crime, politics which give me nothing.
    am fan of him, that does not mean i do not read novels of others.

  6. November 26, 2007 at 12:04 PM

    READ ABOUT SEXUAL SLAVERY PRACTISED BY THE MUSLIMS ON HINDUS IN MY WEBSITE

    http://groups.google.co.in/group/cyber-hindu-warriors?hl=en

    IN SEXUAL SLAVERY ………………..

    MORE THAN 100 MILLION , ABOUT 10 CRORE HINDUS HAVE BEEN SLAUGHTERED BY ALLAH’S ASSHOLES.

    ALSO READ THE TYRANT OF MYSORE : TIPU SULTAN ….. THE BASTARD WHO KILLED MANY AND SECULARIST WANT TO PROJECT HIM AS

  7. Niketan
    October 5, 2007 at 8:13 AM

    Any update on the English translation of Aavarnaa?

  8. Palahalli
    August 17, 2007 at 2:08 PM

    No…this guy Auster is very good at his job. He is cold and logical. Reading him, you realize why the “West” is mostly on top. It was essentially built by folks with the “Auster” outlook.

    Another reason why China and Russia will forever be apart from the “West”.

  9. August 17, 2007 at 11:29 AM

    Ahh you fill me with despair. When I saw a couple of Auster’s blog entries I thought he was just a traditional right winger. Now he seems to be a bigot and I have no use for such people.

    All I want is to live in peace, and in order to do that I am willing to make compromises with folks having sub-70 IQ who believe in 72 virgins, 7 layered skies and flying horses. I will not try to show reason to them if they dont molest me. But even that looks like a pipe dream. Sighhh.

  10. Palahalli
    August 17, 2007 at 2:40 AM

    Mathurji,

    I will be responding to your posts in some detail a little later.

    Off the top, I would like to clarify that when I responded to your post I made the assumption that I will agree with your diagnosis..Ie.Islam being the “cancer”. This much I had stated earlier also.

    Secondly, my manner of resolving this issue would be to bring in more openness in religion and by protecting all dissenters. Abide by the law of the land. I know that such a stance is generally met with cynical hysterics *Im not thinking about you*…but my point is, if governments and peoples do not, today, seem to have the guts to uphold their existing fair laws…then how can anybody expect this selfsame human material to bring about the kind of “revolutionary” change that you envisage? I feel it is utopian. But of course…you are thinking of a paradigm shift in leadership. Hmmm

    Thirdly, about Lawrence Auster. If you peruse his blog and follow his thought processes..you will find that he is your ally as far as “expulsions” go. Dan Pipes is mild…when compared to Auster. Anyways…Auster’s pitch is centered around the following;

    1. Preservation of a “White” Western Christian Civilization. He calls himself a “Traditionalist”.

    2. He is not only against Muslims; he also includes “other” Americans. E.g. Hispanics and Blacks.

    3. He is fine with such “Hindu” specimens that will subserve to the concept of a superior White Western Civilization. To him, the “Non-West” may as well be the abode of the barbarian. He has in fact, used these and such terms for non-Whites. Sometime back, he took to task Canada’s Prime Minister for visiting a Gurudwara and praying like our Sikhs do.

    4. He believes in “Civilizational” ghettoes. He feels each “Civilization” must maintain and confine itself to its “landmass”. “Vasudaiva Kutumbakam” is for the birds.

    5. He does not support US intervention in the Middle East because he feels it is useless. Won’t do it(US) any good.

    There are many more such observations. Recently, he posted an article about disenfranchising women. He feels that the presence of womenfolk in the political process “feminizes” politics and makes it veer toward “safety” and “security” thereby, disallowing tougher and more ruthless action in the domestic and international spheres…which are necessarily fraught with certain (male/masculine) risks.

    The reason I found Auster so relevant is because…I have found a similar trend in our native conservative politics. Especially the manner H-Vadis have taken to the “clash” of civilizations. What is in fact hidden from many of us is the ugly underbelly of people like Auster.

    I reckon, it will be only folks like Auster and Co. who will be capable of implementing the “expulsion” policy in the US and the “West”. That comes with a price tag for all of us “browns”. You have admitted as much when you spoke of accepting US hegemony.

    51st State of the United States…but brown. We can always call it…Totally Tanned ;)..But “Hindu”? None can say.

    I will return..as promised, in order to address your other points.

  11. August 16, 2007 at 4:46 PM

    @Aram: Just saw your post on the issue. You say ” Iran is not friendly with any other Muslim country because its majority population is Shia whom Sunnis do’t consider as Muslims at all.

    So, how does that help?”

    They might be Shias and Sunnis to each other, but to us kafirs they are Muslims. Both of them worship the same paedophilic cult leader, both of them sing paeans to their mafia lord Allah and both of them are filled with the same hatred for the world at large. When Iran falls, it will not be Shias leaving Islam, it will be Muslims leaving Islam.

    And mind you, whatever little cultural accomplishments Muslims can boast about, have been courtesy Iran (Persia of old) not Arabia. Iranians are the only Islamic nation who dont seek to Arabise themselves. They have an old civilization, and they take pride in its accomplishments. Believe me, Iran falling will be a big blow to the Muslims world. But direct US intervention should be avoided. It will be better to fund pro democracy dissidents.

  12. August 16, 2007 at 3:54 PM

    @Palahalli : I glanced through Auster’s blog and I didnt find anything revelatory in it. Perhaps you can send me some specific entries that you think would be of interest or which put together a fundamentally different agenda regarding dealing with the Islamic issue.

  13. August 16, 2007 at 3:46 PM

    @Palahalli: You dissected my points and tried to raise objections to them. Fair enough! But I assume that since you have gone to the trouble of dissecting these points, but you have raised the issue of necessity of employing these measures, you admit that Islam IS a problem.

    Once we accept that, the task becomes easier. First of all if we equate Islam with cancer, which in a way it is, we will figure out that its not possible to fight cancer by any one mean. The disease is terrible, it takes a big toll on the body by eating it away from inside, and often the body is terribly weakened in the process of fighting the disease. We cannot have a peaceful battle against Islam – the term itself is a oxymoron. There will be casualties in a battle, and there will be collateral damage as well. What is important is to recognize that the alternative will be much worse. If I have to choose between an Islamic world and a world under American hegemony, I will choose the latter every time, but that is not important.

    To come back to the measures, I had never said that one measure will work all the time. Different measures will have to adopted in different parts of the world. But each measure will work in some small way to end Islam as an ideology.

    You say “Of course, you assume that all of these Muslims quite suddenly, will turn amnesiac about all the knowledge and science and serious facilities they have accumulated thus far.” YOu are not serious are you? What kind of knowledge and science has been acquired by Afghanistan, or Iran or Iraq or Saudi Arabia? Take out all foreign workers from saudi and stop it from exporting oil (using alternative energy sources will serve a dual purpose, it will halt global warming and it will stop Saudis from acquiring money and using it for terrorism) and Saudi will revert back to a savage, medieval bedouin land. None of the Muslim countries have made any advancement in science because they contend only Quran is true. And the only thing for which Quran is useful is for wiping your ass in the lavatory. You may want to check the article by Pervez Hoodbhoy in last week’s outlook in which he talks about abysmal state of scientific research in Muslim countries.

    You say “Is the killing in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq due to a blockage of immigration?” Unknowingly you are strengthening my argument :). To the best of my knowledge not much immigration happens westward from the badlands of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. So all these places have a high concentration of Muslims who are barred from doing anything else apart from reading the Koran and squabbling with each other. The violent verses of the Koran result in hate mongering and killing.

    You say “The Iranians did not “reject” Islam under the Shah. The Turks did not “reject” Islam under Kemal Pasha”. There was a qualitiative difference between the Shah’s regime which was merely corrupt and the present regime which is not only corrupt but also oppressive.

    You say “As for Islam, there are plenty of studies that show Islam as man made and Mohammed more a military leader than a Prophet of Allah.” How many Muslims accept such studies? I would suggest that you go to the Friday prayers in some mosque and make this suggestion. And if you have any dependants at home don’t forget to get your Life Insurance done before you embark on this suicidal mission :).

    You say “Apart from forgetting about non-Western, non-Muslims, this does not address the issue of naturalized citizens..inhabitants with ancestry in the West, who also happen to be Muslim.” Are you aware that most Muslim migrants who live in the West are just that – immigrants. They are not citizens. For the time being leave the citizens as they are and get along with deporting the temporary migrants. Muslims seek safety in numbers. Once the Muslims are hopelessly outnumbered in Western lands due to deportation, the remaining will behave quietly like lambs.

    Your point about India is valid. We are so inured to vote bank politics, that our politicians will do nothing to address the Muslim problem. They will stoke the fire if necessary to get votes. I had stated earlier that in this cataclysmic battle against forces of barbarity, I expect India to be either a mute bystander or a minor hindrance. The battle will largely be fought by the US, Israel and perhaps some European countries. China and Russia’s roles will be important. Russia has a Muslim problem of its own in Chechnya and China has trouble brewing in some provinces.

    I will go through the link I have sent you. I couldnt give a more detailed point by point rebuttal due to shortage of time. Besides, I wonder why didn’t you seek to provide your own solutions since you are well aware of the problem.

  14. Palahalli
    August 14, 2007 at 9:45 AM

    Mathurji,

    Sorry, but work kept me away.

    However, I did discover Lawrence Auster. Not too sure you’ve heard of him.

    http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/008567.html

    Now to your post; I might lean on Auster while responding since he takes the same “expulsion” position as you seem to do amongst other options;

    1. “Islam is a barbaric cult, just like Nazism and Communism, and it must be destroyed just like those cults were. Does this necessarily mean killing all or most of the Muslims?….”

    - Let’s say I agree with your proposition that Islam indeed is the same as Nazism and Communism and it must therefore be destroyed likewise. How were these two ideologies “destroyed”? Nazi Germany was militarily defeated and its leadership decimated itself, or was executed. There was a great effort at “de-Nazification” invested in by the allies, particularly the Western allies.

    Aside – However, quite “amusingly”, allies on both sides…”West” and “East” spirited away valuable human (Nazi) material to their own sides of the “curtain” for immediate and future “use”.

    But still, Nazi Germany was comprehensively MILITARILY defeated and militarily occupied. The allies did not have to prove Mein Kampf a piece of trash. Nazi defeat proved it to all much earlier.

    The Soviet Union crumbled because of internal decay. Its people turned against the State. Gorbachev greatly helped by de-fanging this State of its coercive apparatus. The “Western” victory, if it can be called that, over the Soviet Union and Communism was non-Military and greatly depended on critical/key members of its (Soviet) leadership. All this apart from a weakening Warsaw bloc.

    The contrast with China and the US willingness to engage it, is striking. Inspite of its (China’s) own “Evil Empire”.

    But, here again, in addition to the Nazi situation, your “Expel and Isolate” and thence destroy Islam, is unlikely to afford useful precedents. On the other hand, mass slaughter will become unavoidable…either willfully…or circumstantially. Collateral if you please.
    ******
    2. “The swiftest and most painless way to destroy Islam is by disseminating information about it to the entire world. Fact is, not too many Muslims read the Hadiths and not too many of them understand the Koran either….”

    - Very well then. If this is workable…why “Expel and Isolate or Decimate”? Education should do. But what you also implicitly admit to is…”not too many Muslims read the Hadiths and not too many of them understand the Koran either”. So, your target is narrowing already. I have gone along with this option before.
    ****
    3. “We will need to stop treating Islam with kidgloves and reserve for it the contempt that we had earlier dished out to Communism and Nazism. Once Hitler was defeated, the allies discredited Nazism to such an extent that even inside Germany it was no longer fashionable to call oneself a Nazi.
    This is the easy and time consuming way out. The difficult way is the military option.”

    - I would prefer to skip this part…but I wished to point out some “problems” in your thought process/facts.

    Nazism and Soviet Communism DID NOT fall due to them being “discredited” by the West. They fell because of their own deficiencies. They also fell because of the disillusionment caused due to continuous Nazi defeats in war, post early 1944…and the crumbling of the Soviet system plus Gorbachev’s welcome subversion from within. I doubt if a capitalist critique of Das Kapital really helped in its final collapse. Nor did any number of Soviet citizens gain access to such studies. As for Islam, there are plenty of studies that show Islam as man made and Mohammed more a military leader than a Prophet of Allah.

    You spoke of the Military option. I would like to hear about it.
    *****
    Non-Cooperation:

    1. “Deport all Muslims back to their countries of origin and mainitain a moratorium on further Muslim migration. If they hate the West so much they might as well stay in their own countries.”

    - Apart from forgetting about non-Western, non-Muslims, this does not address the issue of naturalized citizens..inhabitants with ancestry in the West, who also happen to be Muslim. Is it proposed that these be forcibly converted? What are their choices? On deportation, the grounds would be “race”? “religion”? “nationality”? I am assuming that ALL these Muslims will be deported to their countries of origin. Mainly centered in the ME and NA.
    ****
    2. “Most Muslim countries suffer from misgovernance, high birth rates, extreme poverty and a propensity towards violence. Immigration to the West acts as a safety valve which absorbs some of these pressures. Stopping immigration will cause Muslims to start killing each other (witness what is happening in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq) and a tremendous turmoil will result in the Muslim world. Possibly some of them may come to the conclusion that Islam is the cause of their problems and they may want to root out the filth of Islam.”

    - This is interesting. A theoretical equivalent of keeping/containing the Nazis and the Soviets within their domains.

    Is the killing in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq due to a blockage of immigration?

    But, your point seems to be that there is bound to be tremendous pressure on Muslim national resources to feed and support reverse immigrants including host populations and then a general mayhem is predicted, until such time as Muslims “possibly” open their eyes to the cause that is Islam.

    Please allow me to dwell on this a little longer. Forgive my mild outburst though…

    In your above model, you visualize a neat compartment on Earth that you will label “Islamic Land” and place ALL Muslims there expecting them to savage themselves like caged dogs. Of course, you assume that all of these Muslims quite suddenly, will turn amnesiac about all the knowledge and science and serious facilities they have accumulated thus far. That countries such as North Korea and China and even Russia…apart from a host of former Soviet Republics-now Islamic *where would these go?* with messy weapons in their midst, will simply agree to a pan-Western program of global scale Islamic exclusion/isolation?

    Wonder what Israel would do with such humongous trouble all around its borders?

    How would India have to react? Ah…Muslims to Pakistan of course. But first, revoke citizenships and pick and push them right across Kanyakumari…right through the Vindhyas and into the deserts and plans of Rajasthan and Punjab. Hmmm…What if Pakistan stops them at the border? Start firing? Of course, such a global operation cannot be a secret for long. And Pakistan would know that its game…so to speak…is up. Are we forgetting those happy benign Islamic bombs? Hell…you haven’t even had the Eastern non-Muslims within your scope!
    ******
    The fourth way is, help the moderate Muslims (Daniel Pipes prefers this way). It is now generally acknowledged that Iranians are tired of their Mullah led government, and as many as 85% of them may opt for a secular, non Islamic way of life given a chance. An outright invasion (Iraq like) may not work, but if the US provides military help to dissident factions within Iran, it may be possible to overthrow the current regime.

    - This is somewhat more practical. But as “Aram” has pointed out, not without its pitfalls too.
    *******
    If Iran falls, the repercussions will be widely felt in the Muslim world. The entire Muslim world depends on the logic of nos – argumentum ad numerum (1.2 billion people cannot be incorrect). Rejection of Islam by Iranians will sow the first seed of doubt in the minds of the Muslims.

    - The Iranians did not “reject” Islam under the Shah. The Turks did not “reject” Islam under Kemal Pasha…where is the guarantee that a change in regime will provoke a change in faith?

    But, I urge you to study Auster’s blog. It’s an education in itself.

    Regards,

    And oh…Vikas…nice going! ;)

  15. Ulta Pultu
    August 10, 2007 at 8:27 PM

    Islam’s terrorist dogma in Muhammad’s Own Words

    http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_17_Good_Muslims_Kill.Islam

  16. Aram
    August 10, 2007 at 12:30 PM

    @Palahalli and Mathur:

    Your discussion on the Muslim problem, I found very useful.

    A small doubt about “If Iran falls, the repercussions will be widely felt in the Muslim world. The entire Muslim world depends on the logic of nos – argumentum ad numerum (1.2 billion people cannot be incorrect). Rejection of Islam by Iranians will sow the first seed of doubt in the minds of the Muslims.”

    Iran is not friendly with any other Muslim country because its majority population is Shia whom Sunnis do’t consider as Muslims at all.

    So, how does that help?

  17. August 9, 2007 at 2:07 AM

    Hello. The post http://underway.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/o-privire-asupra-literaturii-indiene-anantha-murthy-si-bhyrappa/
    is written in Romanian. If you want, i will ask Diana to get you an English version of it. We can translate it if you want…

  18. Vikas
    July 26, 2007 at 1:13 PM

    1.Methinks people have wised up to your commie crap and that is why you need “justifications” like ‘votary of BS’. OTOH, people living in glass houses…not throw stones… You paint everyone a hindutvavadi, right wing and posts churlish insults but when responded in kind, start crying. Mommy must be proud of your tantrums. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out, simple.
    ———-
    2.Where have I said revenge? Putting words in my mouth, again. Hindu ‘openness and thought’ are for people who show reciprocity. Tolerance doesn’t mean acceptance of everything under the sun.
    ———-
    3. Hindu ‘justification’ for child marriage, why criticism against muslims brings up Hinduism? Moral equivalence(TuQ)? Is islam so shallow/weak-kneed that it cannot withstand scrutiny on its own legs without equating it with Hinduism or any other religion? Jihadi igno-ranter ‘Dr’ Zakir Naik made these same ‘arguments’ on child marriages, polygamy in Hinduism. Zakir and you forget that in islam, Hindu is an infidel (Kufr) & Hinduism=haraam. Exceptions are only when it suits y’all. Naik will conveniently wash his hands off Hinduism if the topic of rebirth etc comes up. Why? Not there in islam, so no use. Anyway, on child marriages amongst Hindus, you have answered your own question(illegal), read it once again. Secondly, no ifs and buts, there is no doubt that paedophile pretend-prophet married a kid-girl..tell any muslim about this and enjoy the show. ROFL. For islamic paedophilia, scroll down.
    ———-
    4.Paedophiles come to India from various parts of the world irrespective of religion, quite true. Pls let me know who, amongst them, ends up getting married to the kids they abuse and divorced within a few days/weeks? Muslims. Which law do they follow in marriages? Sharia? Our legal system will prosecute those who indulge in paedophilia. What does Islam do to prevent it? Zilch, it encourages it and provides a ‘halal’ label to this blatant prostitution. What are ordinary muslims doing about these medieval ‘laws’? Nothing, apart from releasing hot air when a case like this comes up now & again. Why can’t ordinary muslims change them? Wha…change pretend-prophets ‘laws’. Why arab sand rats come here may depend on many things, economics (cheap), ‘taste & variety’, parents who think sheikh-bin-dick will marry their daughter and help them, servile pimps oops qazis?
    Reg age of consent, marriage ceremony/ritual is not the end all of things. Registration of marriage is compulsory irrespective of religion. Take a guess who might be objecting to it.
    State govts wary of hurting Muslim sentiments(ToI, Jul 24 2007, scroll to related stories)
    http://tinyurl.com/2a7byr
    ———-
    5. Did not see you mention these rotten practices when you said muslim countries have diversity in thinking? I agree to US’ support for S. Arabia, paki but that was not the point. Point being, where does the ‘inspiration’ for Diyya in Saudi and Revathi’s case(conversion from islam to Hindu religion) in ‘moderate’ Malaysia come from? Kuran?? If Hindus cannot construct a temple, take his religious books etc. to Saudi or set foot in Mecca-Medina, if Malaysia can demolish Hindu temples on flimsy grounds whereas ordinary muslims here are busy demonstrating against Israel,US, peado Mo’s cartoons and rioting while advancing ummah-cause. Can Hindus give them a taste of their own medicine here since I too feel the pain of Hindus being wronged in Islamic countries? Hindus get treated like dirt and are murdered, raped & kidnpped in Paki and Bangladesh whereas muslims here are thriving, copulating and populating like rabbits? If the Hindu openness, thought and tolerance is not going to be acknowledged,leave alone, reciprocated, why the duck should I even try it on these babboons? In this process, I don’t care if we make 1 million or 1 billion enemies. So you see, Hindu openness, thought & tolerance is not a one way street. You give me respect, I’ll accord you the same.
    Why should the onus be on me to differentiate between jihadi and ‘ordinary muslim’? You yourself were tripping over pebblestones when I asked you about ‘how to differentiate between modearet muslim and a jihadi’ many posts back? Why don’t the ordinary muslim confront the jihadi scum amongst them? It hasn’t happened in the last 60 years, fat chance, it’ll happen now.
    ———-
    6.Well jihadis too draw their inspiration from the same koran. The jihadis quote it while going for suicide bombings, killing and beheading non-muslims. Read the views of ‘our’ moderates below.
    http://tinyurl.com/2hcgbw
    Per you, are they ‘moderates’?
    cheers!

  19. July 24, 2007 at 12:45 PM

    “You have kept the “west” in mind. I hope you have considered the Indian situation too.”

    Dear Palahalli: No, I have not considered the Indian situation. Its obvious isnt it, that we are a nation of Dhimmis, who will crawl if we are asked to bend. I dont expect any contribution, even nominal from India’s political class in the battle against Islam.

    Regarding my descriptions of Islam and Mohammad, you need not assume that they are true. Please read the Koran and the hadiths, you will get the true picture. And the true picture is worse than I can portray in such a limited space.

    I dont know how appealing this discussion would be to other visitors of this blog. If someone objects we can always shift the discussion to a different forum.

  20. Palahalli
    July 24, 2007 at 12:34 PM

    Mathurji,

    Thank you. You have at least attempted to formulate solutions.

    Can we wait till our other friends respond before we continue?

    Only one point of order though. You have kept the “west” in mind. I hope you have considered the Indian situation too.

    On an allied note, I will, for the sake of this discussion, assume your observation of Mohammed and Islam to be true and factual. That way we can proceed further…

    Thanks again Sir.

    Regards,

  21. July 24, 2007 at 11:01 AM

    @Palahalli: Dude there is no easy solution that will work with little or no collateral damage. Since I am much less knowledgeable on this issue as compared to Ali Sina or Ibn Warraq, let me in a nutshell tell you what they think.

    1. Islam is a barbaric cult, just like Nazism and Communism, and it must be destroyed just like those cults were. Does this necessarily mean killing all or most of the Muslims? No, definitely not! As you had earlier pointed out Muslims are the biggest victims of Islamism. Liquidating the Soviet Union and the “Evil Empire” did not involve killing too many ordinary citizens, and I don’t see why we should not be able to eradicate Islam without too many casualties.

    2. The swiftest and most painless way to destroy Islam is by disseminating information about it to the entire world. Fact is, not too many Muslims read the Hadiths and not too many of them understand the Koran either. Once the truth gets out that Mohammad was a rapist, paedophile, mass murderer, schizophrenic, epileptic, delusional, megalomaniacal bigot most educated and intelligent people will want to distance themselves from him. This is already happening. Go to the testimonials section of Ali Sina’s website to find out what Muslim apostates have to say about Islam.

    3. We will need to stop treating Islam with kidgloves and reserve for it the contempt that we had earlier dished out to Communism and Nazism. Once Hitler was defeated, the allies discredited Nazism to such an extent that even inside Germany it was no longer fashionable to call oneself a Nazi. In Soviet Union, Marx and Lenin and Stalin are no longer heroes. Similarly we need to discredit the ideology of Islam, so that Islam is viewed by people as a disease and Mohammad is viewed as a psychological oddity. All we need to prove is, Islam has not come from God. Discrediting Mohammad is enough to achieve this end.

    This is the easy and time consuming way out. The difficult way is the military option.

    The third way is non-cooperation. It can be achieved in this way :

    1. Deport all Muslims back to their countries of origin and mainitain a moratorium on further Muslim migration. If they hate the West so much they might as well stay in their own countries.

    2. Most Muslim countries suffer from misgovernance, high birth rates, extreme poverty and a propensity towards violence. Immigration to the West acts as a safety valve which absorbs some of these pressures. Stopping immigration will cause Muslims to start killing each other (witness what is happening in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq) and a tremendous turmoil will result in the Muslim world. Possibly some of them may come to the conclusion that Islam is the cause of their problems and they may want to root out the filth of Islam.

    The fourth way is, help the moderate Muslims (Daniel Pipes prefers this way). It is now generally acknowledged that Iranians are tired of their Mullah led government, and as many as 85% of them may opt for a secular, non Islamic way of life given a chance. An outright invasion (Iraq like) may not work, but if the US provides military help to dissident factions within Iran, it may be possible to overthrow the current regime.

    If Iran falls, the repercussions will be widely felt in the Muslim world. The entire Muslim world depends on the logic of nos – argumentum ad numerum (1.2 billion people cannot be incorrect). Rejection of Islam by Iranians will sow the first seed of doubt in the minds of the Muslims.

  22. Palahalli
    July 24, 2007 at 10:16 AM

    Mathurji, let me try again. What is the solution that comes to your mind? Is it there…somewhere on my list above? Or…do you suggest another?

    Regards,

  23. July 24, 2007 at 9:37 AM

    Its convenient to blame the US, Europe and the biggest culprits of all – “the Jews” for all troubles in the Islamic world. I guess someday the Muslims will say that the hateful verses in the Koran have also been inserted by CIA due to a deep rooted conspiracy.

    Meanwhile something else for you to chew on :
    http://markhumphrys.com/islamism.nightmares.html

    The possible fallout scenarios due to terrorism in the coming decades. One of these scenarios has come from a full length book called America Alone by Mark Steyn. The scenarios are fun to read :D. And we of course know what the Indians will do, considering the secular combo of Left + Congress ruling the Indian psyche.

  24. Aram
    July 24, 2007 at 8:32 AM

    While googling for Nilagriva, I discovered your website on Malleshwaram and from there Avarana.

    Good pics and very good review

  25. Palahalli
    July 24, 2007 at 1:11 AM

    Mathurji: I am not unaware of all that you have pointed out to.

    Amongst the worst sufferers at the hands of Islamists are Muslims themselves.

    As a student of history, I am also aware of the humongous role that our dear Western “friends” have played…and are still playing…in sheltering Islamist regimes across the globe.

    So, what is the solution?

    Do you think expulsion of all Muslims will solve the problem? If yes, then where would you want them to go?

    Do you think all Muslims can be converted to “Hinduism”? If yes, do you think we can retain their loyalty post that? To make certain that “loyalty” is retained…are we prepared to commit the necessary resources? In what shape or form will this happen?

    Do you think we should retaliate? 10:1? Or more? If yes, do you really think this will stop the killing?

    Do you think we should contain Muslim immigration? I noticed that on one of the websites.

    Do you think we should stop imports and exports from and to Muslim countries? Do you think starving these nations will do the trick?

    What about Nuclear weapons? Maybe tactical bombing of Afghanistan? Get rid of Osama? Given the barrenness of the Afghan-Pakistan border, it may be pretty feasible. Why is the US hesitating? Where is Osama?

    But then, does the US really want to get rid of Osama?

    Who is supplying arms to these people? Who are the BIG political players?

    Who sheltered Khomeini in his pre-revolutionary days? Answer – France!

    Coming to France, I note Vikas talking about revenge against Muslims for “their” past crimes. The same language is used by an online Islamist and he says…”The French are crying now? They deserve what they get! Remember Algeria??”

    Who supported Saddam Hussain in his accession to power?…and thence, in his unprovoked war with Iran? You may not know it…but a secular Baa’thist Saddam turned Islamic hero when the US turned against him post Kuwait. Are we now saying that the US was unaware of Saddam’s plan to invade Kuwait? Many years since that war…the US again invaded and this time, stayed on in Iraq. WMDs! They said. Colin Powell is shamefaced today! Who is responsible for the Iraqi mess?

    Why was Palestine left to fester? The PLO was not an Islamist organization. That is one of the reasons why Hamas fights it. The West wants democracy. “Palestine” votes. Hamas wins….and the West is worried about democracy?? If these numbskulls are not careful, Turkey will go the same way! Nothing can get closer to the “West” than Turkey….land border and all!

    Why did the US continue to support a Pakistan that supported a Taliban that strung up a Najibullah for five whole days and nights? The same Taliban that in it’s heydays was converting football stadiums into slaughter stadiums that would put ancient Romans to shame?

    What about Saudi Arabia? A great friend of the US….whose Islamists composed 70% of the 9/11 bombers? And the assholes invade Iraq instead??!

    Today…the Bush administration is contemplating invading Iran. Is that what you think will work? Invasions? This kind of “regime change” from the outside?

    What is the answer Mathurji?? More harebrained websites? More nonsense about a non-existent “Hindu” defense? Our great H-Vadis go into fits while talking about “their own” Dalits….and they will achieve the moon with the Muslims??! They do not know the meaning of acceptance and making friends!

    These fellows….my debating friends can breast beat all they want. But it’s a shame they cannot figure out why their cause is friendless inspite of all the fear Islamists have managed to instill.

    Please let us not talk about apologetics anymore!

  26. July 23, 2007 at 4:04 PM

    @Palahalli : Dude, sorry to barge in again, but you are actually raising topics that have been long answered, and some of them by people more competent than us – scholars of Islam like Ali Sina, Ibn Warraq and Daniel Pipes.

    I would suggest that you go thru the following links
    http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
    http://thereligionofpeace.com/
    http://www.danielpipes.org/art/year/all

    The first of these sites, faithfreedom.com is run by an Iranian ex-Muslim called Ali Sina (pseudonym), who is a legend in his own right. He is among the most famous of Muslim apostates and he has made it into a personal mission to educate the world about the cult of Islam.

    Daniel Pipes is one of foremost experts on Middle East and Islam, while thereligionofpeace is a website that brings daily news of Muslim atrocities from across the world. They keep a track of Islamic terrorist acts since 9/11, which now no close to 9000 (averaging 1500 per year, a remarkable achievement one must say).

    If you go thru these sites you may be enlightened with the truth about Islam, and you may just figure out that acting as an Islamic apologist or placing Islam on a platform equal to the other religions is about the worst thing you can do.

    Peace be with you!

  27. Palahalli
    July 23, 2007 at 11:51 AM

    Vikas: I apologize for the delay. There seemed to have been a miss.

    Anyways…let me respond to your points..

    1. The reason I “clarified” my politics is to try and make my stance clear. I hope you understand that you have still not justified your labels vis a vis me.

    2. “++Muslims got away with opression and butchery for hundreds of years. Shoe’s just comin on to the other foot now. Now muslims and their apologists will whine, snivel & snicker because it’s payback time and payback’s a bitch, comrade. Don’t like it? Tough but its not my headache. Amusingly, this is the reason I see you invoking Hindu ‘openness and thought’ which islam and your fellow comrades lack and detest. Such hypocricy is revolting.”
    - If this is a call for revenge, I hope you state it clearly. “Hindu openness..etc” is so claimed by H-Vadis as their positives. Post that call for revenge, forgo this claim too.

    Yet again, for you, ALL Muslims are the same.

    3. “++Firstly, children sold to some arabs, that is straight forward prostitution, isn’t it? NOT if done through NIKAAH, the Islamic rules of marriage and that was my point which you, for the nth time, chose to ignore. Islam allows child rape.
    - Really? And this from someone who conveniently ignores an entire article full of “Hindu” justification for Child Marriage?! What you miss, within your blinkers is this. Human beings cannot be straight jacketed. Muslims are as diverse as any other religious group. If the Prophet married a 9 year old…and even if a country or countries legalize this age of consent, you will still not have men marrying children. Perverts amongst them in any case will. These perverts btw are from all shades/religions. Did you know that a Child Marriage cannot be annulled by law? In India? Even though it is illegal in its inception?
    Please use a better argument to demonize an entire community.

    4. “….and facts must be twisted to suit his ‘views’ not the other way round.”
    - So you admit to twisting facts? Well, if you are so unswerving in your “demonizing” project, I challenge you to list the Ages of Consent across all nations on earth and show me that ALL Islamic nations or nations where the majority is Muslim, indeed permit men to marry children. All of them without exception. I will be “happy” if you provide even 50%. But then, if you cannot, accept that your project stands on flimsy grounds. In the meanwhile, would you like a list of Non-Islamic nations where the Age of Consent is as low as 12 yrs?

    Is all of your “theses” on demonization based on the fact that the Koran and the Hadith is revered by the Muslims and these contain some unpalatable facts too? Where do you think most of the pedophiles come from to India? Who do you think arranges for all those kids? All Muslims?

    You speak of Nikah…I have yet to see a marriage ritual where the Age of Consent is verified and made certain that it is suited to the law of the land. Of course the Qazi, on “good” money, will oblige! This 14 year old girl in Hyderabad was “married” off four times before she walked into a police station! Her parents collected quite a lot of monies. But of course, in your warped worldview, such things are patently Islamic! Never happens amongst folk of other religions! But maybe you want to tell me why these Arabs cannot find kids back in Arabia….to “marry”? Why look for “greener” pastures? After all, as per your blinkers, this seems to be most Islamic?!

    5. Rotten practices in any country must be opposed. If you have read the Khaleej Times on the Malaysia issue, you will have noted that there are Federal Judges who have opposed what has happened there.

    Go ahead….read this twist in another tale from Malaysia – http://www.suaram.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=30

    Admittedly Saudi Arabia is a harder nut to crack…complicated further by US support for its regime….much like Pakistan. Most terrorists are financed by the Saudis too.
    To my mind, Islamist terror cannot be fought by assuming ALL Muslims as the enemy. If we do that, logically, we assume a very dangerous situation that must be confronted on our streets. We also perforce, relinquish any support we find amongst Muslims. Why would ordinary Muslims support an initiative against Islamists if we do not care to differentiate?

    So, all at once, instead of dealing with a situation intelligently like human beings, we become a pack of dogs on the prowl.

    6. You are so stuck on the Koran’s influence. The common Muslim shows that though he reveres the Koran, he does not go in for young flesh, multiple wives and cutting the throats of infidels on his way to work in the morning!

    Why do you think Islamists have to indoctrinate their cadre? Per you, they already are! ;)

    Something I found on the net…..Muslim girls chatting about marriage – http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234924290

    These are the kind of folk we will be alienating if we follow “your” mindless and blind hatred.

    But Sir, you still don’t have a plan to address the Muslim Question.

    Maybe you need a spur? – http://www.ghwk.de/engl/kopfengl.htm

    So long!…regards’

  28. Gautam
    July 18, 2007 at 6:53 PM

    AAVARANA, a must read book for all the pseudo secularist.

  29. Vikas
    July 17, 2007 at 2:43 PM

    1. Firstly, I am not a Communist or an Islamist or a H-Vadi.2. I am, if anything, an ardent votary of resonableness and practical thinking.

    ++If you are not C, I or HV, then why justify? Chor ki daadi mein tinka. LMAO @ “votary of resonableness and practical thinking”. Not that I believe what you wrote but I find ‘votary stuff’ quite refreshing from the “atheist rationalist”, one of the
    biggest self-contradictions in innumerable discussions on religion.
    **********
    3. I am not in favor of blind hate against ALL people of a religion or nationality.
    ++Same here.
    **********
    4&5. Somehow, it baffles me that folk who speak so much about “Hindu” openness and “Hindu” thought being in line with nature in terms of its propensity toward diversity….

    ++Muslims got away with opression and butchery for hundreds of years. Shoe’s just comin on to the other foot now. Now muslims and their apologists will whine, snivel & snicker because it’s payback time and payback’s a bitch, comrade. Don’t like it? Tough but its not my headache. Amusingly, this is the reason I see you invoking Hindu ‘openness and thought’ which islam and your fellow comrades lack and detest. Such hypocricy is revolting.
    **********
    1. Child Marraiges – Islam, purportedly encourages this system via the fact that Muhommed married a 9 year old. Muslims are supposedly in agreement too. Apart from some half hearted attempts by my friends, none have been able to prove this prevalent “fact” amongst Muslims. Children sold to some Arabs and Iran’s marriage laws supposedly prove this charge.

    ++Firstly, children sold to some arabs, that is straight forward prostitution, isn’t it? NOT if done through NIKAAH, the Islamic rules of marriage and that was my point which you, for the nth time, chose to ignore. Islam allows child rape.

    Secondly, I knew that our commie friend will not be convinced even if facts (girls married to old arabs and Iran’s marriage laws) are tossed on his face. Nothing can convince this votary of un-reasonableness and im-practical thinking’ because he has his own ‘ideological’ views and facts must be twisted to suit his ‘views’ not the other way round. Let me add to Iran’s marriage laws (girl 9 years old), other countries which have the same laws -> Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Brunei, Kuwait, Yemen, Sri Lanka(for muslims only) and the United Arab Emirates to name a few.
    **********
    a. These children were sold by destitute and desperate parents. Such cases are rampant amongst our poverty stricken and not restricted to any one religion.

    ++Let me clear up a few uncertainties of meaning here. A 54 yr old man having wet dreams about marrying a nine year old girl is paedophilia whereas a 8yr boy marrying a 7 yr old girl is child marriage. In Islam, it is OK for an adult male to marry 9 yr old girl (paedophilia). That is what the 60+ year old arabs sheikhs did with the help of Qazi Pimps and Khomeini too, all within the Islamic rules of marriage. Islam allows paedophilia.
    **********
    b. I have also linked to a wiki page on Marriage laws across lands in order to prove that even Islamic or Muslim majority nations are diverse in their thinking. No matter what Mohammed might have ordered of his followers.-
    ++Wiki is doubtful when it comes to history/religion in general. No data for Islamic Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates on this page?

    You’ll believe Islamic nations are diverse in thinking only if you have been living under a rock. In Saudi Arabia, the leading light of islam, when a person kills another, there is a Diyya (blood money) to be paid:
    ——-
    Indian Consulate General, Jeddah, S. Arabia Website
    http://www.cgijeddah.com/cgijed/Welfare/deathbooklet.htm
    Death Compensation in respect of a male person:
    i. Muslim – SR. 100,000/-
    ii.Christian/Jew – SR.50,000/-
    iii.Other religions : such as Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, etc. – SR 6666.66
    In the case of death of a female, death compensation allowed is equal to half the amount as admissible to males professing the same religion.
    ——-
    Where do you think they got this idea of providing compensation? Maybe, koran? Isn’t it discriminatory towards Hindus and women irrespective of their religion? Hows that for ‘diversity in thinking’?
    ——-
    Another ‘diversity in thinking’ from ‘moderate’ Malaysia, Revathi Masoosai’s 15-month-old daughter was taken by the Islamic Religious Department in southern Malacca state on March 26 and handed to Revathi’s Muslim mother. Why?
    SHAH ALAM, Malaysia—A Muslim-born woman who was forced to spend six months in an Islamic rehabilitation center because she wants to live as a Hindu said Friday after her release that she will never return to her original faith.
    Revathi Masoosai, 29, said officials at the center tried to make her pray as a Muslim, wear a head scarf and eat beef, a practice sacrilege to Hindus.
    “Because of their behavior, I loathe Islam even more now,” she told reporters. “They say it’s a school, but it’s actually a prison.”
    **********
    2. Polygamy – Actual Numbers show that there are more “Hindu” cases than Muslim, of polygamy. However, even amongst Muslims, it is not as common as propaganda allows. However, granted that even such cases are unhealthy. But restricted to Muslims? My freinds have made no argument about it again.
    ++Again changing the topic, Muslimic koran allows polygamy. ‘Root cause’. Hindus will be jailed if found out indulging in polygamy, bigamy etc.

    Hindu’s worldwide have more of cases of polygamy than the entire muslim ummah?? Thats a new one, put up or STFU.

    **********
    I’ve been to Hindu marriage ceremonies in Northern India which only take place during night time whereas in South, they take place in broad daylight. In the north, Hindu women wear the nose rings on the left whereas in South it is on the right side(or the other way round) along with stupidities like purdah. Little bird tells me these changes took place during our ‘golden’ era i.e. mughal days.
    ++++++++++++++++++
    XYZ: Thanks a ton.

  30. xyz
    July 15, 2007 at 4:54 PM

    Vikas,
    From the official website of the Sringeri math,i found that many peshwas had high respect for the Acharyas,who toured maharashtra regularly.Some of their samadhis are near nashik.

    The raid was an aberration.The offical website says that the image of Sri Sharadamba was reconsecrated.No major damage was done,perhaps.

  31. Palahalli
    July 14, 2007 at 3:21 PM

    Members:

    Some clarification is in order;

    1. Firstly, I am not a Communist or an Islamist or a H-Vadi. I do not think that any of these categories can be pinned on me based on my thoughts expressed here.

    2. I am, if anything, an ardent votary of resonableness and practical thinking.

    3. I am not in favor of blind hate against ALL people of a religion or nationality.

    4. Somehow, it baffles me that folk who speak so much about “Hindu” openness and “Hindu” thought being in line with nature in terms of its propensity toward diversity, fail to recognize this self same propensity in human beings belonging to so called straight-jacket faiths. This kind of “thinking” in some members here, retards their thought process and blinds them to recognizable and available opportunities and breaches, in “straight-jacketed” faiths. By indisciminate hate and label mongering, they not only follow principles that they seemingly decry, but succeed in banding together, fanatics and resonable people, who are otherwise not averse to better advise.

    5. This is most important; Recognize “enemies” but not know how to deal with the problem. I have repeatedly asked, what is the plan to resolve the Muslim Question? Apart from it’s ominous portents, this is on the minds of my dear opponents. However, none knows or wants to share. Only Mayura said…Samjhauta Express…and then did not care to clear some obvious doubts on its practicality…I will wait for his response. I understand that this discussion may turn out to be a wannabe “Wansee” Conference…but through it, I hope to convey it’s utter hopelessness and inhumanity. Any positive suggestions may generate a more healthy debate.

    6. The feeling that the; Koran/Hadith = Muslim behavior = All Muslims are therefore, predictable *therefore* Koran/Hadith must be “derecognized” *then* Muslims will then not be; is a simple and lovable formula. Unfortunately, too simplistic to be real.

    Let me touch upon two areas that have led to some heat.

    1. Child Marraiges – Islam, purportedly encourages this system via the fact that Muhommed married a 9 year old. Muslims are supposedly in agreement too. Apart from some half hearted attempts by my friends, none have been able to prove this prevalent “fact” amongst Muslims. Children sold to some Arabs and Iran’s marriage laws supposedly prove this charge.

    It is quickly forgotten that;

    a. These children were sold by destitute and desperate parents. Such cases are rampant amongst our poverty stricken and not restricted to any one religion. That this practice (Child Marriage) need not have started with Islamic invasions is proved by the Kanchi Kamakoti seer upholding a “Hindu” case for just such a practice. Not surprisingly, this has been ignored by my friends.- http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap6.htm

    b. I have also linked to a wiki page on Marriage laws across lands in order to prove that even Islamic or Muslim majority nations are diverse in their thinking. No matter what Mohammed might have ordered of his followers.- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

    2. Polygamy – Muslims are supposed…most married ;) au contraire..Actual Numbers show that there are more “Hindu” cases than Muslim, of polygamy. However, even amongst Muslims, it is not as common as propaganda allows. However, granted that even such cases are unhealthy. But restricted to Muslims? My freinds have made no argument about it again.

    Apart from the above; My friends will do well to know what they talk about sometimes…atleast.

    Case in point – “Hindutva-vadis never found islam peaceful, even before 1947 and Partition.. forget 20 years ago.”
    - WRONG. One main and severe grouse Sita Ram Goel and Ram Swarup had against H-Vadi organizations is that they, while blaming Muslims…were ambivalent on Islam. That they in fact, readily bought into the “Islam is good..but Muslims are bad”…line of thinking, thus, getting themselves into an ideological smokescreen.

    Please review – http://www.indianexpress.com/story/33157.html

    More later….Regards,

  32. Vikas
    July 13, 2007 at 1:38 PM

    Palahalli:
    -Islamic terror can strike anywhere. Even in places where there are no Muslims. Since I am not much induced into black and white scenarios, I have never claimed Islam or any religion to be a religion of peace. It is a religion that over a billion believe in, nevertheless.

    ++Comrade admits there exists islamic terrorism. Nice, lets move on. Also, it is not axiomatic that just because a religion has over a billion followers that it must be good.
    *******
    -All right. Practical question – Muslims like to say they follow Mohammed in his tracks right? Well then, how many old Muslim men have you seen marrying children?What are the statistics for Polygamy by community in India?

    ++If you have not seen it yourself, it doesn’t exist, correct? Do you mean to say that not one muslim man has married a girl child, there isn’t one single instance of polygamy in the muslim community {with the sanction of kuran, of course}? I am talking about the source of these despicable practices (kuran) not prevalence. Even one incident of polygamy or child marriage is enough to irk civilized peoples. Not quite sure what you intnd to do with the data?
    *********
    - Nope. Does not offend at all. It is there in the Koran/Hadith. However, must I not laugh at one who thinks on becoming a Muslim…I must perforce run off and marry a 9yr old child?

    ++When the new muslim’s sickening gene kicks in, he will have an koran sanctioned ‘legalese’ to marry a 9 year old and nobody can stop him. Islamic Iran says 9 years is girls’ marriage age. Ayatollah Khomeini (when 28 or 29 yrs of age) himself married a ten year old. In a civilized society, these perverts will be behind bars for these crimes. In India, ‘moderate’ AIMPLB (Diet Shariat) challenged the Child Marriage Restraint Act (21yrs for male & 18 yrs for fem). They wanted the girls marriage age to be lowered. No prizes for guessing why(it was against Islam). If you think nobody is running to marry underage girls, why did the AIMPLB seek to lower the marriage age for girls? Just for kicks.

  33. socal
    July 12, 2007 at 9:18 PM

    Amazing! So many new posts within a day! Sandeep your blog seems to be getting popular. :-)

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