Aavarana is a book Indian secular intellectuals love to hate but cannot ignore. The “average reader” (which increasingly means someone endowed with commonsense, a healthy sense of balance, and has not mortgaged brains at the ideological altar) chose to respond differently. In the miniscule market for Kannada fiction, Aavarna has seen nine reprints in just four months since it was first published in February this year. This however, is not a significant measure of its success.
Aavarana owes its success by justifying what its title signifies.
In the preface to the book, S L Bhyrappa, the author of Aavarana expounds the meaning of Aavarana. To this end, he draws from such diverse primary sources as Nagarjuna, Vedanta, and Advaita. He captures the essence of Aavarana as Maya and Avidya. Aavarana is an illusion, a veil–a suppression of the real nature of things.
Aavarana is perhaps the first novel in recent times that deals with an explosive theme in a world dangerously supercharged with political correctness. It is notable for another substantial reason. Of all his works, Aavarana contains marked political undertones like in no other Bhyrappa work–not even the epic Tanthu (Strand). Aavarana marks a complete departure from all of Bhyrappa’s works in terms of theme, form and content.
In just about 300 pages, Aavarna uncovers the flimsy lid on top of the abyss of Islam’s encounters with India. It is simultaneously historical and contemporary because it exposes the contemporary manipulation of history justified in the garb of preserving secularism.
Aavarana opens with Razia, a middle-aged feminist filmmaker mulling over the ruins at Hampi. She’s there with her husband, Ameer to make a government-sponsored documentary on Hampi. The goal of the documentary ostensibly, is to project Hampi as a symbol of Hindu-Muslim brotherhood. Her research slowly leads her to doubt the history she has learned to believe, and takes her back in time to examine her own life so far. News of her father’s sudden death takes her back in space to her native village near Hassan. As she examines his personal effects, she is astonished to find his library stocked with volumes of scholarly literature about Islam’s encounters with India. She reads his detailed notes on almost every page of each book and suddenly recalls what he had told her when she had announced her decision to marry Ameer: Lakshmi, some day in future, your own descendants will destroy temples. (Ed: liberal paraphrased translation)
Lakshmi’s past provokes her again. As a bright graduate blazing her way towards success as a feminist filmmaker, she decides to marry her classmate, Ameer. Both are products of the ’60s secular/progressive school of thought that shuns artificial barriers of caste and religion. However, when she marries Ameer, it never occurs to her why she should convert to Islam, and change her name despite Ameer’s disbelief in said artificial obstacles to True Love. Her first tryst with beef-eating poses similar problems. She self-justifies them all but isn’t fully convinced till her fateful visit to Hampi. Her son, a PG from a US university has found a job in Saudi Arabia. He is a product of the modern world unable to reconcile its ways with his newfound zeal for the “pure” Islamic way of life. Living in Saudi Arabia, he firmly veers towards Islam.
Lakshmi/Razia stays back at her village and begins reading the copious literature her father has left behind. What she learns horrifies her. She decides to write a novel on it.
From here on, Aavarna alternates between Lakshmi/Razia and her novel. S. L Bhyrappa uses the play-within-a-play technique.
Lakshmi/Razia’s novel starts with the conquest of a tiny Hindu kingdom by Mughal hordes. Everybody except the teenaged-crown prince dies in the encounter. The kingdom’s family diety is smashed, trampled upon, and desecrated and the prince taken prisoner, converted and renamed to Khwaja Jahan. Khwaja Jahan wonders why they spared him. It takes him exactly one painful encounter to realize that his innocent, boyish face has caught the commander’s fancy. He is given special attention for a few weeks. Some days later, he is treated to a nice drink, which makes him drowsy, and then he’s semi-conscious. Two powerfully-built men hold his legs while a third uses wooden tongs to castrate him. The commander pleasures himself with the boy and later, sells him as a slave.
Khwaja Jahan realizes that he’s just one among tens of thousands of such castrated males. He is made in charge of guarding the quarters of a commander’s mansion of concubines. The rest of Lakshmi’s novel chronicles Khwaja Jahan’s experiences in this role.
Aavarana bares the excesses of the Mughal slave system in horrid detail. Equally, it describes how Islamic rule destroyed centuries of lofty civilization and wounded an entire way of life. It shows the painful struggles of people fighting to preserve it. Khwaja Jahan’s dialogue with a Sadhu on the banks of the Ganga in Benares is heart-rending to read. At one level, Aavarana is difficult to read without squirming at the atrocities an entire civilization has gone through.
Aavarana’s singular merit is just one shocking symbolism. Khwaja Jahan’s violent castration shows exactly where Islamic imperialism aimed at. To an extent it is also a measure of its success. It is also interesting that the success rate of a person staying alive after this kind of violent castration was very low. But Khwaja Jahan stays alive, another symbol of the plight of Hindu civilization under Islamic rule. For instance, Hindus suffered on a massive scale during the more bloodier part of Mughal rule under Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb. Unarguably, Aurangzeb inflicted the most damage on Hindu ethos and populace than any other Islamic ruler. Lakshmi/Razia finds it tragic that today’s Delhi has a road named after Aurangzeb, a monument to remember a barbarian. In a way, Khwaja Jahan symbolizes an emaciated India that was never prepared for, and reeled under repeated waves of invasions, which had their roots in religious ideology.
Aavarana has understandably outraged intellectuals/progressives/secularists/writers in Karnataka. I’ve written about Professor Shastri in my earlier post so I don’t need to cover that again. S.L Bhyrappa contends that it is dishonest to conceal historical facts on the (flimsy) excuse of promoting communal harmony/secularism. Aavarna raises the important question of Hinduism vis-a-vis Islam and Christianity. Hindus have admitted to several social evils and set themselves on corrective action–Mahatma Gandhi’s emancipation of Harijans, etc. The West rejected Christianity as a guide/means to rule the state, embraced democracy, etc. Why don’t we see a similar introspection among the Muslims?
A few critics also raise the why-Aavarana-now question. The answer is buried in the question. How long do we want to ignore the obvious threat of Islamic fundamentalism? Not much has changed in Islam from Aurangzeb’s time to now. Bin Laden is merely Aurangzeb’s cousin in time. The same ideological compulsions motivated them both. Aavarana explores precisely these compulsions laid down in Islamic literature starting with the Quran. Besides, much of what passes as India’s medieval “history” is mere interpretation. In other words, a veil, concealment of facts, Aavarana. More fundamentally, has concealing/falsifying history really ensured communal harmony?
Finally, the reactions to Aavarana–while they were expected–also reveal the tragic depths we’ve plumbed. Kannada has a rich repository of historical novels that includes Masti’s Chikaveera Rajendra, Korati’s Paramesha Pulikeshi, and Ta Ra Su’s Durgastamana (Durga’s Sunset). Durgastamana describes the fall and destruction of Chitradurga under the Nayakas when Hyder Ali attacked Chitradurga. Durgastamana is still hailed as a classic in Kannada literature. I wonder how our progressives would react if he’d written Durgastamana now.
Postscript: It is only available in Kannada now but it is worth more than the 200 Rupees (approx) it costs.
Crossposted on Desicritics.
Tags: Books, History, Indian Politics, Islam Watch, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, Society & Culture, War on Communism, Weblogs
On 06.14.07 nkota says:
thanks for the great review, (please put spoiler alert next time;))
On 06.14.07 Vikram says:
Dear Sandeep,
Thanks for the great review. Have you read Ravi Belagere’s dissection of “Avarana” and “secularists” in “Hi Bangalore?” He literally trashes the secularists and commies, but doesn’t rate “Avarana” highly.
On 06.14.07 amar says:
Thanks for the great review, Sandeep.
On 06.14.07 Sandeep says:
nkota,
I haven’t revealed anything at all, actually. That’s the meat of the novel.
Vikram,
I’ve read Ravi Belagere’s take and don’t agree with a lot of it. He’s a safe player. He likes Bhyrappa as a novelist but can’t stomach the hard truth in Aavarana. In any case, he’s intellectually dishonest.
On 06.14.07 Arun says:
Awesome review!
Is the book available in English too?
On 06.14.07 Vayuputra says:
Hi Sandeep,
Thanks for a fantastic review.
On 06.14.07 shadows says:
Nice one, Sandeep. I wish I could get an English translation.
Another thing to note is how the author depicts the very commonplace conversion of women by muslims. First they will claim that they are secular, True Love, etc. Then they will ask for conversion before marriage, and also force the burka or beef on the women.
For those who will say that the guy is marrying the woman - For muslims, marriage has not much sanctity or binding. They can marry 4 women at a time (keep many infidels in their harems, of course) and divorce them easily, to get another one. Its almost as if islam does not believe in marriage, it believes in some kind of glorified flesh trade or prostitution.
On 06.14.07 shadows says:
Another thing to note is that its always the non-muslim who must convert to islam, whether man or woman!! You will very rarely ever read or hear about the reverse case. Why ??
On 06.14.07 mayura says:
Sandeep,
You are on the spot. I completely agree with you about Ravi Belagere’s intellectual dishonesty. After all he is a dyed in wool communist. What else can you expect from him. Read my comments on thatskannada.com, suryashikari section for more details.
Regards,
Mayura
On 06.14.07 socal says:
AavaraNa should be translated asap. It has a capturing theme and a universal message, namely the vitality of ‘truth’. Bhyrappa has meticulously probed the natural thoughts in the life of a convert through Razia’s dilemma. His message that truth shall prevail over socially convenient fabrications is socially epochal and touches the undercurrents of contemporary public thought quite profoundly. Question is, will the translation live upto its promise?! I sure hope so. Though its effect can be dramatically multiplied if other novelists pick up the theme and give it their regional flourish. To still from Mao- Let thousand Bhyrappa’s bloom!
On 06.15.07 nkota says:
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/06/08/stories/2007060852190300.htm
read the standard “THE HINDU” response
On 06.15.07 Niketan says:
Have any of SL Bhyrappa’s novels/books been translated into English. He seems to be politically incorrect - very rare for people in the literary scene. Alas- I am not able to read Kannada.
socal - AavaraNa should be translated asap.
Yes. It is better if it is done now when it is in the news. Who are the publishers? Any idea of Bangloreans can contact them and request a translation. I doubt whether the leading publishers like Penguin would ever make the effort to translate such a politically incorrect work.
On 06.15.07 anonymous coward says:
After reading this review, the ONLY question which comes to my mind is how long will Hindus continue to be second class citizens in their own country ? After all, even our PM has said that minorities (read Muslims) must have the first share to the countries resources! Has he forgotten that his brave ancestors like Maharaja Ranjit Singh fought against Muslim invaders?
On 06.15.07 socal says:
kota,
Since you referred cHindu’s review, please follow its systematic emasculation by a blogger here-
http://cbcnn.blogspot.com/2007/06/hindu-view-is-not-plural-anti-hindu.html
Niketan,
I don’t understand Kannada either, but going through the reviews and interview with Bhyrappa at the pointer above does indicate that a translation is in works and apparently a Publisher is all that needs to be arranged. Of course with all the notoriety that this novel has accumulated for itself, that shouldn’t be very hard a task.
Bhyrappa needs to refashion his answers from the interview with urgency. Eg. why the novel now?- should be unapologetically linked with its pertinence to contemporary social scene and with the populist message of novel genre’s efficacy. Bhyrappa’s diffidence on this and other counts will directly play into secularist hands while there’s no need to do so.
On 06.15.07 Chandra says:
Socal, that was good interview. Although the interview itself was bit amateurish (in my opinion anyway), Bhyrappa put across his views very well (his dismissal of communists ideology was crisp).
On 06.15.07 Sandeep says:
All,
For the record, there IS some effort going on to translate the book. All of Bhyrappa’s earlier works have been translated into multiple Indian languages but given the almost oppressive hold of English book publishing, they’ve not reached the actual audience they deserve. I speak as one who has met and spoken to the author several times.
That’s a story for another day.
On 06.15.07 Niketan says:
Now will Bhyrappa be condemned, trashed and forced into oblivion or forced to become become politically correct as what has happened to some other personalities? The entire media seems to have blacklisted him? This has happened so often in the Hindi Film industry.
On 06.15.07 Palahalli says:
I think the discussion is at cross purposes.
The reason why a non-”Hindu” generally does not convert to “Hinduism” post marraige is something for the “Hindus” to sort out. No point blaming Muslims and Christians here.
I can empathise with the need for historical truth…however, the position that “Hindus” themselves in general have recognized their terrible “foibles” when it comes to their own “brethren” *and not some “Kafirs”*…is a bit out of this world.
Bhyrappa’s work may or may not be unique in Kannada litrature..but I am amused by the controversy surrounding it.
It’s simply time we ALL faced facts. - “Hindus” and the rest.
For those sentimental “Hindus”…there are tougher questions to worry about than communist reactions to an unoriginal novel.
On 06.15.07 savita says:
i wonder wen we wil rise above all this
On 06.15.07 socal says:
>>>Although the interview itself was bit amateurish
Chandra,
“Amateurish” in what way? It was arguably more substantial than any interview you might see on the Rajdeep and Barkha networks.
On 06.15.07 Chandra says:
Palahalli, the issue is not about Hindus and Muslims but how history is white washed by pseudo-secular, mainly communists, forces in our country. Apparently our entire secular country and the apparatus that supports it is based on this history (the main theme of why secularism is successful in an economically poor country is discounted because it’s based on Hindu ethos by the same folks and apparatus). Is there a tougher question for our country? I think not. Do you have other examples of the “original” novels that explored this theme in other languages?
Socal, it was a passing comment. I think the questions were appropriate but not through. I don’t think the interviewer had much understanding of the subject (he says he didn’t even read the book, which may be fine) beyound the superficial controversy issues. That doesn’t take anything away from Bhyrappa’s in depth and intelligent replies - it could have easily gone the polemic way (The Hindu and it’s cohorts way). Unless you were the interviewer
think nothing about it.
On 06.15.07 Chandra says:
BTW, who says Rajdeeps and Barkhas are not amateurs?
On 06.16.07 anonymous coward says:
OT, but the Left has said that because Karan Singh organized a Hindu Sammelan, his “secular” credentials are suspect.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/33744.html
And so ladies and gentlemen, a Hindu is a pariah in Hindustan. Hows that for irony ?
On 06.16.07 socal says:
The dangerous thing is that a lightweight, pushover, non-entity might end up occupying Rashtrapati Bhavan. What a pity that increasingly qualifications matter less and less in all walks of Indian life.
>>>Chandra, “who says Rajdeeps and Barkhas are not amateurs?”
Lol, Rajdeep TV and Barkha TV certainly doesn’t think so.
On 06.16.07 Palahalli says:
Chandra, if you observe the nature of this discussion…it certainly is all about “Hindus” and Muslims. Past and present. The thing about this country is that the past never really dies. Because of the nature of our society..and our tendency to “preserve” all of our “diversity”…there is hardly a chance to submerge our differences…exceptions apart.
The grouse is not against recognizing historical truth…but what we do about the fire after it’s lit (?) You certainly cannot remain cordial with Muslims after claiming and reclaiming that they are “cordial” with Aurangzeb..can you?
Has Bhyrappa suggested remedies? Are we also missing generalizations in the entire landscape too? Who has conducted a survey before asserting that Aurangzeb is the beloved of Muslims in this country? Is this not as preposterous as claiming that Shivaji is the “Hriday Samrat” of ALL “Hindus”? Do we not know that his statue languished under wraps right here in Bangalore…for longer than comfort brings? Are ALL or even the majority of inter-religious marraiges a failure? What about marraiges within the same religion? What about inter caste marraiges? Are they all successes? Are they all failures?
I want to ask people this. What happens when a Brahmin marries a non-Brahmin? If the said individual is indeed a “Brahmin”…will he/she allow non-Brahmin customs and ways of life to prevail within the household? Is there no opposition from within the larger Brahmin or even non-Brahmin household? The answer would be Yes and No. Because the Brahmin or the non-Brahmin may compromise somewhere. I have seen the same with inter-religious marraiges. I have seen them flourish and have seen them fail. Life is indeed complex.
Sir…brandishing swear words and ideological abuse puts folks in the same category as leftist ideologues they love to criticize. Who is a pseudo-secularist? How is this animal different from its opposite? Who has NOT whitewashed our history? Are entire groups claimants to a lily white status?
This country “survives” AS IS not because of its so called “Hindu” ethos…whatever that may mean…but because of the fact that enough people see better sense in being together…and the fact that they have a right to speak out and organize themselves. Not including the truly emasculated masses that will be happy to eat “something” in their daily miserable existence. But these too…bear it all. It’s a simple truth.
From where comes the preaching??
On 06.16.07 Vikas says:
“Why don’t we see a similar introspection among the Muslims?”
Crore rupee question! All flowery language diversions should not push us into inaction when there is no such introspection on the part of Islam. Commie mofo’s will lecture us about rights, constitution blah blah while the jihadi’s continue to do their own thing infromt of their eyes.
When truth and ideolgy are in conflict, truth becomes hate - Commie SOP.
On 06.16.07 Palahalli says:
Vikas…what do you suggest the non-Islamists do? Or is it the non-Muslims? Or..is there no difference?
On 06.17.07 realitycheck says:
Sandeep,
Perhaps you can help me with investigating a long forgetten story. I would appreciate your references - even if it is in Kannada.
It appears that there was a massacre on the Mandyam /Mandya /Melkote ayyangar brahmin community on or around Diwali time by Hyder Ali or Tipu Sultan. About 700 men women and kids were allegedly put to the sword. Read the link for more details.
Has SL Bhyrappa written about this incident in any of his works. I cant find any references other than some mention on http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1648&pid=64756&mode=threaded&show=&st=&
On 06.17.07 realitycheck says:
To other commenters,
Lets not conclude anything about the present day muslims based on the past behaviour of conquerors on the vanquished. Y know, back in the day - it really sucked to be defeated in battle.
Let us not also seek to hide facts about the true nature of muslim rule or british rule. We cannot name roads and monuments after Aurangazeb - just like Germans wont celebrate Hitler or Goebbels. Just because they are part of our history, doesnt mean they need to be a celebrated part.
On 06.17.07 Unni says:
Palahalli,you can look at our neighbours for learning what they do after the fire is lit.Records of Hindu population,in these nations,in 1947 and 2007 will prove that for you.Also,you speak in a tone that ‘it is the duty of every Hindu to be cordial with the Muslims’.Do you think it is being reciprocated?You cannot deny that religion is ‘first and last thing’ for a Muslim.
It’s a pity that we live in a world where ‘naming a road after a barbarian’ is considered proudfully secular!
By the way,waiting for Sandeep’s reply to Palahalli.
On 06.17.07 Vikas says:
Palahali
What is a non-islamist? Going by your defn., do Bukhari(Jama masjid)/Geelani (hurriyat) make the cut as non-islamists?
I am looking for reformists a la Taslima Nasreen (a Bangladeshi) whom the non-islamists wont touch with a barge pole. My suggestions are worth diddly-squat, the reform of koran (not muslims) has to be from within the muslim community.
On 06.18.07 kaangeya says:
A few points.
The people today, be they Hindus, Muslims, Indians, or otherwise are a different people from the people of the past. Enmities that existed then have no place in today’s world. We have to live together, hang together, or hang separately. Let us not set out on this dangerous path of setting right the wrongs of the past. How many people know that a group of burqa-clad Muslim women gathered at the Sankat Mochan Mandir after the terrorist inflicted violence there, to recite the Hanuman Chalisa? How many of us know that Parvaiz Elahi the CM of Punjab (Pakistan) invited a Hindu purohit to perform a Holi aarti at his residence (and had himself anointed with a kumkum tilak)? There are very deep bonds in this land of ours. That is why Tom Alter’s son who went to colege in the US returned to India because he simply couldn’t stay away from home. Eselbhi avaru is a universalist. He is no bigot demanding vengeance. Like the great Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu he is simply asking for truth and reconciliation, so that we may put the past behind us. If you ever have the opportunity see the classic Paavamanippu in Tamizh starring Shivaji, Savitri, Gemini Ganesan, Devika, SV Subbiah, Nagiah, and the one and only M.R.Radhakrishna Naidu aka M.R. Radha - screen villain extraordinaire. This movie was directed by the great auteur Bhim Singh, a Rajput from AP. Sivaji plays the role of a foundling (actually MR Radha’s son) brought up as a Muslim who falls in love with a Hindu (Savitri). At the end of the movie (when all riddles are solved) Shivaji is united with his biological father MR Radha (who spends most of the movie making life miserable for the man who is actually his son) and Savitri are united in matrimony, Sivaji famously utters “vazhkkaiyil munnera, manamaaRRam veNDum, madhamaRRam alla,” “we must change our mind not our creed”.
On 06.18.07 Palahalli says:
Vikas - Why assume I meant Bukhari or Geelani? These fellows do not even command respect within their own communities. Else…Bukhari’s periodic electoral fatwahs would have been respected by all Muslims..no?
There are plenty like Taslima Nasreen out there…these need to be encouraged and protected. It is true that the violent in Islam are very overt…they do not hide in closets..quite unlike Christians and “Hindus” to a lesser extent. And that is why they are more dangerous.
Let’s take Nasreen’s example. For years she has been requesting Indian citizenship..what have we done? Before someone jumps up…”ALL PSEUDO SECULARISTS!!”…I would like to ask what the BJP did in it’s six years? The fact is…Taslima can make even the “Hindu” leadership uncomfortable with her point blank statements
Now…when the aggressive amongst “Hindus” cannot shelter Taslima…how must we expect the lay Muslim…who is more bothered about making a living and feeding his family…than about the next Jehad…be expected to muster courage? This is no excuse…but just common sense.
I don’t know what you mean by a “reform” of the Koran? Your suggestions seems worthless to you..only because this/they seem to be impractical. The Koran cannot be changed. We can surely encourage reinterpretations? A much more milder “version” of the Koran is possible because of the fact that there are Muslim nations that are moderate too. More education is possible..more reform of Madrasas are possible.
Sometimes…I feel folks who are so aggressive toward Muslims and against them in general…probably have never met a Muslim in their lives
But this is not true…we live amongst them…work with them..interact with them on a daily basis…hell! Some of us have best friends amongst them too! And we get by all of these contacts without them resulting in general massacres. So..there must be a better and more intelligent way of looking at this seeming “problem”. I say…more and better education. For all sections of our people.
Realitycheck - I feel “Hindu” Leadership is symbolism driven in the extreme. Symbols may have their uses…but that’s not the game.
On 06.18.07 anonymous coward says:
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/patil-veiled-under-a-controversy/top/43118-3.html
The little secularist cried wee-wee-wee and ran all the way home
On 06.18.07 Vikas says:
Palahalli, reg. non-islamist, Bukhari or Geelani, I never assumed anything, it was a question. Was it so difficult to answer that you had to resort to lying???(THIS IS A QUESTION, Palahalli).
Remove the no good RED blinkers and maybe then we can have an honest talk. Till then, go f*ck yourself.
On 06.18.07 Harish Duggirala says:
kaangeya all fine and dandy, but how exactly do you expect harmony in view of the Quran’s commandments concerning non muslims?
On 06.18.07 Anonymous says:
There are plenty like Taslima Nasreen out there …
YA RIGHT !
I would like to ask what the BJP did in it’s six years?
If BJP had given citizenship to Nasreen, the entire media lead by Barkha Dutts and Sardesais and Shekhar Guptas would have made life hell for audiences across the nation, putting more fuel in the fire… questions like “Is BJP playing communal politics on a sensitive issue?” “We the People - Should BJP not interfere with muslim communities sentiments”, “Is BJP playing with muslim sentiments..”
would have been persistently raised in all forums 24×7 and made the NDA life hell. BJP was not fool enough to give the NDTVs of the world another handle to beat them with.
The question really should have been, why the west bengal government the chest-thumping secularists of the nation not siding with Taslima? Why is she so inconvenient to the Javed Akhtars and Shabana Azmis and Teestas of the secular world that nobody even dare mention her name, leave aside work for her in getting a honorable citizenship.
If you can answer this, do; else keep your double-standards-hypocritical mouth shut.
On 06.18.07 socal says:
>>>”There are plenty like Taslima Nasreen out there”
Most certainly. Well, if ghosts count!
Anyway, the centerpiece of Bhyrappa’s argument is that social bonds should be based on Truth, and truth alone. Under no circumstances should this criterion be diluted. A not so subtle attempt to obfuscate this important issue seems to be at work here. Exceptions have already landed us in quagmire of partition and numerous riots. Should we still be pursuing the same mistaken path? Or is it time to look at this whole shebang anew? The choice is clear I guess.
On 06.18.07 socal says:
Regarding Tasleema:
The commies have been witholding her petition in Calcutta so it is pointless to blame BJP or others for her affliction(btw its been 3 yrs. since UPA is in power, wonder what’s stopping them; I mean since when have secularists started following BJP’s precedent?). Tasleema has expressed time and again that she wishes to live in West Bengal only because of the similarity of language and Bong culture- whatever that is. So it is important that the commie ruled state push her application further. It won’t.
So please convince your comrades first before blaming others. Why is Hindus always in quotes in your post? You can’t even mention Hindus with straitface, sheesh!
On 06.19.07 Palahalli says:
Various:
1. Anon coward: I read the article…which “secularist” cried wee-wee-wee? Btw, does Pratibha now qualify for “Hindu” support? On Mughals and the “Hindu” veil…please think about this…Babar appeared on the Indian landscape in the 16th century. We have had Muslim dynasties ruling in various parts of this country before that. Is it your contention that these invaders never abused native women prior to Babar? Or that the “veil” idea took root only post Babar?
2. Vikas: I guess your question might have been..”What is a non-islamist? Going by your defn., do Bukhari(Jama masjid)/Geelani (hurriyat) make the cut as (islamists)?
Well, as per my understanding…an Islamist is a Muslim with a religio-political agenda. Yes, both of them would qualify as Islamists.
Question for you; where have I lied? And where have I displayed RED blinkers?
I won’t dignify your abuse by responding to it.
3. Harish: If I may wager an answer; I expect harmony in lieu of the fact that millions upon millions of “Hindus” and Muslims live together in this country. If your reasoning is correct…we should have had continual unremitting civil wars. I think that is a reasonable deduction in light of Koranic injunctions against Kafirs (?). The question is…why is it NOT happening?
4. Anonymous/Socal: I was serious about “plenty of Taslima Nasreens” out there. I have known Muslim women who are fiercely independent. Most of these are a feminist’s delight. Taslima seems to have made it to the eye of a storm because of her outspoken public style. Her outrageously lovable statements. This raises the Mullah’s hackles
On her request for citizenship; perhaps you could have paid more attention and caught me on a technicality..Taslima applied in 2005. The UPA was already in power and the BJP/NDA need not have made any decision except for political stance/pressure. But this too, was/has not been done by upholders of freedom…defenders of “Hindus” against Islam. It seems they prefer to use the authoress of Lajja and then forget her. Taslima of course…cannot be labeled Hindutva friendly too. Probably that is the reason? I can understand the communists and the congress pandering to Mullahs…but what of the BJP? Are they better?
http://ceras.alternatives.ca/17/taslima.htm
Again…why should the BJP’s/Hindutva stance be dependent on reactions from elsewhere? That means they can be bullied and dictated to.
The reasons for the partition and riots in this country are complex. It will be nice to pick up a specific linkage with the notion of “Truth and Reconciliation”.
I myself have nothing against Bhyrappa’s central argument.
Socal: The reason I have “Hindus” within quotes is very clear to me. There is no meaning to the term in its religious sense unless we take into account its caste-outcaste structure. Most commentators these days are happy to link “Hinduism” with some notion of Brahmanism. In fact…it makes more sense that way…except for the fact that it leaves out most of “it’s” non-Brahmanic people. The other definition of the “Hindu” as a resident..this side of the Indus is embarrassingly self restrictive. But what’s all of this got to do with having a straight face?
I need to know something; have none of the Hindutva-vadis here ever interacted with a Muslim at work? In their neighbourhood? At school? College? At the store? If yes…then what has been your experience?
Thank you.
On 06.19.07 socal says:
pale,
>>>The reason I have “Hindus” within quotes is very clear to me. There is no meaning to the term in its religious sense
Hmm…you won’t concede as much as quotation marks for it deviates from your notion of accuracy or truth, but want Hindus(which btw is widely understood and recognized) to gloss over hard facts which have cost them millions of lives?! Intriguing to say the least.
Taslima: The only accurate technicality would’ve been her being not present in India for mandatory 12 yrs.(which govt. can override), which you didn’t cite. She applied for citizenship first in 2002, when NDA was ruling. Marxist-ruled W.Bengal has objected to that ever since.
I think your loaded piffle about experiencing Muslims is best left unanswered. Btw, one would think someone enamored of myriad complexities of life wouldn’t fall for the temptation to categorize people. Ah, but then exceptions can always be made…especially when it suits the cause. Cheers,
On 06.19.07 Palahalli says:
Hmm…you won’t concede as much as quotation marks for it deviates from your notion of accuracy or truth, but want Hindus(which btw is widely understood and recognized) to gloss over hard facts which have cost them millions of lives?! Intriguing to say the least.
- Intriguing if I had indeed suggested it. Don’t gloss over ANY historical fact…but do not superimpose them onto the present. As for “Hindus”, I have stated my reason for keeping the term within quotes.
Taslima: The only accurate technicality would’ve been her being not present in India for mandatory 12 yrs.(which govt. can override), which you didn’t cite. She applied for citizenship first in 2002, when NDA was ruling.
- Your latter statement is wrong per this attached report;
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1026083.cms
My question still is this - why should it matter to the Hindutva vadis that her opponents oppose her vehemently? Why not just push for something right? I will understand if you say…”all this is politics”.
I think your loaded piffle about experiencing Muslims is best left unanswered. - Why?
Btw, one would think someone enamored of myriad complexities of life wouldn’t fall for the temptation to categorize people. - What “categorization” are you talking about?
Ah, but then exceptions can always be made…especially when it suits the cause.- What cause? The only folks with a “cause” around here seem to be Hindutva vadis..
Btw - I think you have to face the question of relating your understanding of Muslims and their Koran with forward movement in their relationship with Non-Muslims, in this country.
On 06.19.07 Anonymous says:
god , now we have to understand koran? give us a break kid and get a life.
let us hindutva-vadis, us blood-thirsty,fundamentalists,modi lovers,sonia haters live in our ignorant bliss. you can buy a ticket to pakistan and understand all the koran you want.
On 06.19.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Oh we understand Koran alrite, it’s juat head in the sand nuts like you that don’t understand what it has in store for mushriks like you.
On 06.19.07 socal says:
>>>Intriguing if I had indeed suggested it. Don’t gloss over ANY historical fact…but do not superimpose them onto the present. As for “Hindus”, I have stated my reason for keeping the term within quotes.
Your first few posts invariably seem to say so. I suggest read them again.
It is history for non-muslims but the muslims consider the origins of that conduct to be eternal applicable. Submerging is ok superimposition is not. Wonder, why? Btw superimposition, juxtaposition whatever you choose to label it, avoidable it isn’t. So the term Hindu is bereft of religious connotation because of castes?! In that case I don’t see how you see religion in terms that imply a deadlier classification as in believers and non-believers, and all the uncivilized exhortations that are incumbent upon the favorably classified. What’s sauce for the goose…Anyway, the whole exercise of quoting etc., would in any case be ludicrously juvenile.
>>>My question still is this - why should it matter to the Hindutva vadis that her opponents oppose her vehemently? Why not just push for something right? I will understand if you say…”all this is politics”.
I remember a different report which claimed contrary. Will have to look for it. Your question: It should matter to everyone who cares about fairness because of the innate hypocrisy in the “opposition of opponents.” I wonder why anti-Hindutvavadis, who are usually most vocal about matters “secular”, remain silent about this palpable duplicity. I will understand if you showed me the politics. I see none that benefits BJP.
>>>I think your loaded piffle about experiencing Muslims is best left unanswered. - Why?
>>>What cause? The only folks with a “cause” around here seem to be Hindutva vadis..
Do I have to believe you would expend all this time which, as per your own suggestion, ought to be spent on “important issues” without a cause?
>>>I think you have to face the question of relating your understanding of Muslims and their Koran with forward movement in their relationship with Non-Muslims, in this country.
It will be folly to think that any “forward/progressive movement” can be based on something that essentially looks backward by more than a millenium. The onus is on muslims to seek forward path and meet others in present. Even meeting half-ways isn’t an option unless most people agree on 14th century living.
On 06.19.07 Bombat Flyer says:
Palihalli is a well known orkut troll.
On 06.19.07 Palahalli says:
Anonymous: Hindutva-vadis remain a bullying minority within this country…but why would I leave for Pakistan?
It is not I who claim the Koran is liberal…but you who claim the Koran is bloodthirsty. My simple question is this: Why then, do we not have civil wars raging all over India if the Koran, per yourself, instigates Muslims to take up arms against the Kafirs? Why are living examples…in a majority, of co-existence within these communities..all over India, completely ignored in your “analysis” of the Koran and it’s Muslims? May I add these masses are quite religious?
Allright, can you at least tell me what the contribution of Indian Muslims has been/is, to the Jehadi “movement” in general? Or are you asking me to believe that every Muslim is a closet Jehadi?
Harish - In that case, should I not have been harmed already? I mean…how does your projection of some of Koran’s “revelations” into daily life make sense if I am still alive?
Socal - What do my “first few” posts invariably seem to say? All that they do is, largely not agree with you.
Ah…THE MUSLIMS again! Muslims consider the Koran this…they consider the Koran that! They (the Muslims) also are pretty confused about what they consider Koran to be..amongst themselves
But yes..practical Koran needs to be learnt/understood at the feet of the H-Vadi!
Where have I hinted at submergence? I have asked only that you back up your contention that the Koran teaches massacre and Muslims are good students. *If this is not your thought process, then I correct myself*.
And yes..do not “avoid” inconvenient historical facts. I have already made my position clear. I am all for facing these.
On your linking Caste with Kafirs and Dhimmis - Hmm…are you suggesting caste is not a reality in this country? On the other hand, I have not seen a Muslim…sword in hand…out to butcher Kafirs….in order to comply with his Koran..and thence secure a place in heaven.
Heck…the latest trend is for the H-Vadis to point toward caste amongst Muslims
Not that I disagree with them there. But then…where is Caste in the Koran??
I did not get this logic - “It should matter to everyone who cares about fairness because of the innate hypocrisy in the “opposition of opponents.” I wonder why anti-Hindutva vadis, who are usually most vocal about matters “secular”, remain silent about this palpable duplicity. I will understand if you showed me the politics. I see none that benefits BJP.”
- Are you implying that it is “fair” on the part of the BJP and Co. to take into account opponent opinion that they know..goes against their (BJP’s) grain of thought? *Supposedly*
On the anti-Hindutva vadis’ duplicity…well, that is already confirmed in your eyes. Why be surprised when they stick to their “colors”? What I would like know is why the BJP and the Parivar not do the right thing??
I can venture to say that the BJP is truly scared of sticking by Taslima. They have recognized that she cannot be tamed. As my link has shown, she is too straightforward for the likes of the Parivar. How then, will the BJP explain to its cadre their support to Taslima when she makes all those “inconvenient” and strong statements? Staying away from Taslima but using Lajja…benefits the BJP’s politics.
Socal, what “cause” can I have? If I do have one…it is to try and have our “patriots” answer some obvious questions. But you don’t really have to believe anything you don’t want to
This makes a little sense…but for different reasons - “It will be folly to think that any “forward/progressive movement” can be based on something that essentially looks backward by more than a millennium. The onus is on muslims to seek forward path and meet others in present. Even meeting half-ways isn’t an option unless most people agree on 14th century living.”
- I would not support basing a partnership on anything regressive. Let’s look at the mass of Muslims as they are…around us. You seem to like your propaganda too much. Given the opportunities…Muslims have shown that they want progress and want to live in the “present”. On the other hand…”14th century living” is not a necessary criteria for fanaticism.
Btw…I know that folks associated with the Hindu Jagarana Vedike in Bangalore have agreed on a boycott of all dealings with Muslims. I have a close pal who is part of this group and he welcomes this decision. Methinks…this and suchlike is the reason why it is so easy for some people to speak of Muslims in general..in such black colors. So far…none here has even once admitted to the possibility that there might be another way to resolve this mess.
Truth and Reconciliation is all very well. There is the knowledge of some historical truth…but hardly any reconciliation…at least not evident in this discussion so far.
What is the way forward? In South Africa…the Blacks faced upto White perpetrators in the flesh. LIVING in their times. This commission was largely essential because the Whites, by and large, had not entertained the idea of leaving SA…a la the British from India. They were part and parcel. And the Whites constituted a predominantly/all educated minority. Some such thing IS NOT the case in India. The H-Vadi grouse against Muslims is historical. They would like the Muslims to “own up” to Aurangzeb’s acts and the like…who/which they supposedly eulogize. No self respecting citizen of a free country - Muslim or “Hindu” - would willingly bend under such arrogance. Moreover…on the other hand..Muslims can be ignored or “boycotted” at the peril of the rest of our country. They constitute…16% of our population. No way the “minority”, 9.6%, that Whites in SA are.
So..what is the way forward? Except through common sense and education?
But first…the larger H-Vadi challenge seems to be to start making friends and influencing people. Indeed, even Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel stood apart from the Parivar. It is not very surprising that even in their “core-competence” of Islam bashing…they seem to have no global presence. The Israelis have ignored them…the US under Bush, has ignored them. In a manner..Koenraad Elst recognizes this deficiency amongst the H-Vadi folks. Not even in it’s six years of power did the BJP mend fences with the media and build strong lasting bonds with its allies. The movement as it is…is yet immature.
Not capable of initiating any kind of “Truth and Reconciliation” as yet.
Bombat Flyer - An inconvenient contestation of happy “consensus” can also be classified as “trolling”.Yes.
Btw..its PALAHALLI. It’s my real name.
On 06.19.07 Vikas says:
Palahalli, the untruth is there in the first line of my previous post.
You and red chaddis have a lot in common. You hate Hindus but don’t want the Hindu to hate you. Hypocrisy at its trekkian finest.
I visit Sandeep’s blog to learn stuff that reds have pushed under the carpet for long and continue to do so. But you come here with a ‘know it all and ’tis the truth’ chip on your shoulder. You come here to preach, not to learn and it is others who need to be taught about the jadi-booti potion that you have found in some gufa. All you are doing here is trying to sound superior and repeat yourself like a software code in an infinite loop.
You and LALLu’s have another thing in common, you do not hate all religions, only Hindu religion.
Your hatred for Hindu tradition and culture has blinded you in batting for murderers and rapists along with the endangered and elusive moderate muslim. Hypocrisy mumbo-jumbo is for mere mortals like me, for ov3rlords like you make your own rules, isn’t it? See the red tint!
OTOH, thank you for answering my question. Now, how would you diferentiate between a moderate muslim and a islamist moderate faker? Shouldn’t the moderate muslims, wherever they are, ask and answer this question amongst themselves rather than me, Hindu kufr asking you, an ov3rlord?
On 06.19.07 Palahalli says:
Vikas: Please spell out the “untruth”. You have called me a liar, I see, for no reason. Where is this “untruth”? I don’t see it in my post.
I am almost relieved.
*****
You and red chaddis have a lot in common. You hate Hindus but don’t want the Hindu to hate you. Hypocrisy at its trekkian finest.
* So, I am NOT one of them after all. It’s me AND the RCs
I suggest you do not use the “Hindu” front. The H-Vadis are currently in an inglorious minority. Btw…I do not “hate” the “Hindus”. Yes, I am hard on high flying pompous folks amongst them. I like to bring them back to solid ground once in a while.
*****
I visit Sandeep’s blog to learn stuff that reds have pushed under the carpet for long and continue to do so. But you come here with a ‘know it all and ’tis the truth’ chip on your shoulder. You come here to preach, not to learn and it is others who need to be taught about the jadi-booti potion that you have found in some gufa. All you are doing here is trying to sound superior and repeat yourself like a software code in an infinite loop.
* I can understand your angst. Like Sandeep, I have known Saurav on another forum. A real self made intellectual. He takes a challenge in his stride. I have not yet challenged Sandeep…but I see some opportunity. Wherever I do not, I learn from him and such. This is not the first time I’ve visited his blog. I feel it’s good to challenge “settled” notions. Don’t you?
However, I have never claimed a “‘know it all and ’tis the truth’ chip”…I have asked for some rationale for the hysteria. Is that so difficult to provide?
Sounding superior (?) Where did that come from?
******
You and LALLu’s have another thing in common, you do not hate all religions, only Hindu religion.
* Why should I “hate” ANY religion? Or is it your grouse that I have not joined the Islam = Crap bandwagon? If I notice deficiencies…I will make my observations.
*******
Your hatred for Hindu tradition and culture has blinded you in batting for murderers and rapists along with the endangered and elusive moderate Muslim. Hypocrisy mumbo-jumbo is for mere mortals like me, for ov3rlords like you make your own rules, isn’t it? See the red tint!
* Wherefrom did you deduce my “hatred for Hindu tradition and culture”..? And where have I been “batting for murderers and rapists”? I plead guilty to the latter “endangered and elusive moderate muslim.”..charge, even though you have somehow decided that these are indeed elusive and endangered.
Red tint? Where?
********
OTOH, thank you for answering my question. Now, how would you diferentiate between a moderate muslim and a islamist moderate faker? Shouldn’t the moderate muslims, wherever they are, ask and answer this question amongst themselves rather than me, Hindu kufr asking you, an ov3rlord?
* Good first question.
What test do you generally use to differentiate between a “Hindu” and a H-Vadi? I suppose the same may be used in the Muslim case too. You see…it’s really easy. A “Hindu” who is NOT a H-Vadi is a vile pseudo-secularist, a Red Tinted idiot..that is..if the fellow is not already RED, ov3rlord…and generally speaking..an untrustworthy boot licker of assorted rapists and murderers.
Now…guess what the Islamists call moderate Muslims?
I find myself coming back to the same basic question. What is the quality of your interaction with Muslim folk around you?
On 06.19.07 Bhupesh says:
Palahalli:
*It is not I who claim the Koran is liberal…but you who claim the Koran is bloodthirsty. My simple question is this: Why then, do we not have civil wars raging all over India if the Koran, per yourself, instigates Muslims to take up arms against the Kafirs? Why are living examples…in a majority, of co-existence within these communities..all over India, completely ignored in your “analysis” of the Koran and it’s Muslims? May I add these masses are quite religious? *
Well,a secular is empty headed enough not to be able to see the obvious.But civil war rages whenever the followers of the islamic cult become significant in numbert e.g in Kashmir.The other parts of India are not raging in civil wars only because Hindus have infinite tolerance towards bomb blasts in railway stations,stone pelting on their religious processions,passengers being burnt alive in train bogies.It’s not because the Indian muslims are in any way more peaceful.From time to time these mullahs do reveal their true colors.Maybe they are waiting for the right time.That’s the reason the Hindus have been almost wiped out from Pakistan and Bangladesh.Sickulars like Palahalli won’t understand untill they get the mid night knock on their doors.
On 06.19.07 Kannan says:
Uh…
“On your linking Caste with Kafirs and Dhimmis - Hmm…are you suggesting caste is not a reality in this country? On the other hand, I have not seen a Muslim…sword in hand…out to butcher Kafirs….in order to comply with his Koran..and thence secure a place in heaven. ”
Buddy get a life. Do you think people are fools to believe everything that you say? Who ever say caste is not present in India? The caste system is evil and please , there has been enough debate about it. Caste as we know it, never existed in the Vedic period. Santana Dharma picked up the bad habits somewhere down the line. We have had reformers who have shown us the mirror and reform is taking place.
But to suggest Muslims dont kill infidels. Hmm. well not a sword in hand, but definitely bombs in bags do the trick. Bombs in trains.
The recent bomb blasts in the Muslim dominated areas is a smoke screen to forment more rabid behaviour amongst their own.
How do you interpret the ” kill the infidels” verse in Quran? Hope you have heard about it.
Please do read and let us know about it.
On 06.19.07 Vikas says:
P,
In your excitement to post, least you should do is read (& re-read since you lose track easily) what I’ve written and you’ll get the answers. So much keyboard gymnastics, huff and puff but nothing concrete comes out of you. Do you have any ideas of your own or you’re a ideological ctrl-C&ctrl-V type of person?
My question had two parts to it, how do you diferentiate between truly moderate muslim and a moderate faker and why don’t muslims ask these Q?’s amongst themselves?
Instead of a straight answer, you pulled out this nagina from your rear “What test do you generally use to differentiate between a “Hindu” and a H-Vadi? I suppose the same may be used in the Muslim case too.”
Comparing H-V and islamists hmmmm….thats not a new one. Show me the global network of Hindutvadi’s justifying the killings of non Hindus with the Hindu holy texts (Ved, Gita)? Muslims do that. This is going to continue until muslims reform and reject the cult doctrine (koran). Also, moderate H are questioning H-V’s but do you see moderate mulsims doing the same to islamists? If yes, where? If not, why not?
IMO, you are quite capable of answering honestly (you did it with the islamist/non islamist Q), do it once more.
On 06.20.07 Palahalli says:
Vikas: You do an average job at being patronizing..but let’s see what you come up with next.
I have some reminders and queries for you;
1. You said I had lied. I would like to know where?
2. Do you believe that the Muslims around you are plotting to kill Kafirs including yourself?
3. Please define a “truly moderate and a moderate faker”.
4. Are you sure Muslims are NOT asking difficult questions amongst themselves?
5. What is meant by Muslim reform, according to you? And what is meant by the rejection of their Koran?
6. Moderate “Hindus”?? - But who are the P-Secs? The RED tints? etc..etc..
7. Moderate Muslims questioning Islamists - http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/390
Be my guest…read up on a lot of Daniel Pipes. Controversial…but thinking.
A protest against being “moderate” - http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0423/p09s01-coop.htm
A push toward being more “moderate” - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0714/p09s01-coop.html
KPS Gill’s take on the issue - http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/kpsgill/governance/07apr20Pio.htm
8. Coming back to India, what has been the Indian Muslim contribution - Money and man power, to the Jehadi movement?
Here’s my take again on what can be done constructively ; Encourage and drive education for all..and assure protection for dissenters. Most importantly, curb looney criminality within H-Vadi organizations.
Here’s what actually happens ; While a Christian Britain Knights Salman Rushdie in the face of Iranian opposition, the BJP/Sangh Parivar is lead by the nose by their opponents and their own weaknesses, on Taslima. Drag her over coals on “Water”…and beat up boys like Chandramohan. These are just illustrations..the details are more embarassing.
But…I might still be biased and wrong wrt the H-Vadis…so please tell me how they plan to resolve the vexed Muslim and Minority questions.
On 06.20.07 nkota says:
Palhalli
” beat up boys like Chandramohan”
Please dont think that chandramohan was a innocent boy, it is very clear that he was biased and above that he actually was pagarizing some italians work.
I am unable to find link in pioneer, if i remember right it was kanchan gupta’s article please do read it and find out the otehr side of issue.
But you should again remeber that the protests were very civil when compared to danish cartoons protest , saddam hussian protests(in bangalore) the cause of which were not even indians.
It seems that you are quite old (you have told 36 or something) please take some time to understand hindu philosophy rather than trying to score brownie points.
If you like to be a rationalist, just check the number of places where civil unrest exists currently in the world (darfur, chechnya, kashmir, iraq to name a few), and try to rationalize them.
It is really easy to argue beacuse, of course everyside has its weakness, and no one is perfect , but that doesnt mean all are equally corrupt.
On 06.20.07 nkota says:
i meant plagarizing —-typo
On 06.20.07 Palahalli says:
nkota: Thanks for the sugestion to “understand hindu philosophy”..but how is all this relevant to the fact that the protest was rowdy and violent. That an artiste was jailed for his work? His work was destroyed. That supposedly “cultural” organizations and their sisters in arms, stood back and watched and supported such action?
Are we saying that because it was not as violent as the cartoons issue..we should be happy?
Isn’t correction required?
Why get defensive and touchy?
On 06.20.07 socal says:
I can’t believe how this thread has segued from the pertinence of Bhyrappa’s novel to appeasing a rebel-with-no-cause’s vanity. Bhyrappa is relevant because he delves into a phenomenon which has been hitherto completely overshadowed by the tyrannical regime of political correctness. Islamic fundamentalism is real and its origin are independent of any grouping that it claims victimhood against. There is no moral equivalence between acts of barbarism committed in the name of Islam which are sanctioned by Islam and other random violence which bear no such religious approval. And this can be solved only through addressing its root cause which lies in the violent creed if Islam. Any reform has to come from within Islam. The subtle innuendo in requesting redressal of this problem through education is that Muslims are not educated, in their own religion that too. What hubris!
On 06.20.07 nkota says:
@Palhalli
I guess socal makes the point clear in his statement on moral equivalence.
On 06.20.07 Vikas says:
P,
While you don’t answer ALL the questions asked but expect me to do answer.
My post #48 & #52:
1. You missed out on the first part “how do you diferentiate between truly moderate muslim and a moderate faker and why don’t muslims ask these Q?’s amongst themselves?”.
My post #52
2. You missed out on “Show me the global network of Hindutvadi’s justifying the killings of non Hindus with the Hindu holy texts (Ved, Gita)? Muslims do that.” while equating H-V’s with islamists.
On 06.21.07 Palahalli says:
Observations till now: Socal and others..
1. Muslims are terrorists or supporters of terror.
2. Muslims must reform their religion and this must start from within. Root cause is mentioned..but not clarified.
3. But H-Vadis will cry if Muslims don’t move…They will cry if they move. H-Vadis will also cry if some “Hindus” amongst them try to help the process along and call them names…
4. H-Vadis will make n number of excuses not to help Muslims who brave the maniacs amongst them.
It is difficult to say with what courage another blasphemous Muslim will look to India for support..with or without the H-Vadis in the throne!
5. Education? Bah! The thought seems to be repugnant! Of course…it was not even an option here since the very mention of it brought memories of unrepentant Koran recitals!
* Did I say “religious” education??
6. I think you guys are very lucky..living in Muslim free neighbourhoods..huh? The worry is all mine. I work with Muslims in my team…I have Muslim neighbours..Muslim friends…psst..Tell me…Can I trust them??
7. There are over a billion Muslims worldwide…with close to 200 million in this country alone.
I see some options open to H-Vadis. Maybe you will like these.
a. Convert the 200 million to one or more of several castes. Ouch! But you gotta be born in one right? Maybe a special caste then??
b. Segregate and isolate the 200 million in ghettoes. Let’s look at the map..SMZ types.
c. Deport the 200 million to some country that will take them…with no land borders of course! Enough of trouble already. What about the sea??
“b” and “c” may not really solve the problem…so I guess…you have to just gear up for “a”.
And…I am supposed to be VAIN!
As for the minor issue of H-Vadi arrogance and preying on unsuspecting folk….the novelty seems to be that they manage all this without reference to a holy book. - Congratulations!
Back to the topic: No issue with Bhyrappa’s message of facing historical facts squarely.
Sleep easy my braves
On 06.21.07 socal says:
>>>5. Education? Bah! The thought seems to be repugnant! Of course…it was not even an option here since the very mention of it brought memories of unrepentant Koran recitals!
* Did I say “religious” education??
Doh! You sure can’t do it through fundamentals of marxist theory! Why harp on religious, it applies to every form of education? It is a sick notion to say muslims should be educated as if they aren’t capable by themselves? Instruct if asked, yes, one can understand, but educate?
Btw #60 is quite comical. The poor Hindutvavadi portrayed seems more like a figment of leftist imagination rather than any real one I’ve ever come across. Perhaps battling your own ghosts has purloined your sleep, hence the worry about others’.
On 06.21.07 socal says:
>>>Convert the 200 million to one or more of several castes. Ouch! But you gotta be born in one right? Maybe a special caste then??
Ummm…that’s hardly an issue. Didn’t justice Khacchar acknowledge muslim castes in his report?
On 06.21.07 Palahalli says:
Thanks Socal…we are agreed on conversion of all our Muslims or at least incorporating their castes :). Good..now we just gotta do it.
Yes. Educate. Like promoting education? Ever heard of that? Modernize their schools? Encourage Muslims who want to do these things. When we can shove Saraswati Vandana down their throats..we can surely do more basic things…what?
Have you never interacted with Muslims..ever?
On 06.21.07 nkota says:
@Palahalli
dude please stop beating around the bush, listen it is proved beyond doubt that there is absolutley no equivalence between terrorism and hindutvavad, so there is no point arguing on the lines that “they are wrong but we are also”
All it is required is strong comdenation and strong resistance from within the community, which is clearly not seen, and when seen. it is brutually suppressed,(Ayaan hirsi ali has been attacked multiple times , rushdie is living under fear, Taslima has left the country).
Please do not argue for the sake of arguing.
On 06.21.07 socal says:
kota,
>>>Please do not argue for the sake of arguing.
I beg to differ. It is quite rare and regaling to confront someone so steeply prejudiced against you. His flail attempts at humor can certainly be condoned for greater good.
On 06.21.07 socal says:
pale,
>>>Thanks Socal…we are agreed on conversion of all our Muslims or at least incorporating their castes . Good..now we just gotta do it.
Not to worry. The pleasure is all mine. I am just elated that you’ve agreed upon what seems to be a nice way to promote social harmony.
>>>Yes. Educate. Like promoting education? Ever heard of that? Modernize their schools? Encourage Muslims who want to do these things. When we can shove Saraswati Vandana down their throats..we can surely do more basic things…what?
*their schools* With your emphasis on “interaction” you outta have overcome this petty, divisive “ours-theirs” notion–atleast with regard to muslims–by now. Whatever happened to the lofty “same-same” “bhaichara” attitude!
>>>Have you never interacted with Muslims..ever?
I don’t know why you repeatedly ask this silly, rather redundant question. If you so confidently assert that muslims are everywhere why do you doubt any interaction would be lacking?
On 06.21.07 socal says:
>>>Modernize their schools? Encourage Muslims….
I forgot to mention, but you still seem to miss the inherent superciliousness in your benign venture. No one has discouraged muslims from modernizing and even muslim clerics have underlined the importance of pursuing that goal. They certainly express confidence in their ability towards any such undertaking. Do you doubt it? I hope not.
On 06.21.07 socal says:
* muslims from modernizing their educational institutions and even muslim clerics *
On 06.21.07 Palahalli says:
I’ll persist.
I have NOT stated that Islamic radicalism is the same as H-Vadi radicalism.
Secondly, anybody who cannot…will not..differentiate between crazed fundamentalists and innocent folk should think again…to put it very mildly.
Thirdly, H-Vadi violence is being justified and not opposed by your eminences. It may not be comparable with Islamic terror…but can never be justified. In most cases…this violence has now turned against “Hindus” themselves. Of course…under the categories P-secs…Red tints…etc etc.
Fourthly, in all of the wars on terror that are going on around the world today, the H-Vadi voice is minimal to non-existent. None of the players take our home grown warriors seriously.
Please ponder the reason.
Fifthly, please lay off the bombast. It is unhelpful. More than that, it gives you an illusory and false sense of strength and self - righteousness.
Sixthly, please leave your own ghettoes and know our own people better…and then let us talk about how many Muslims tried to convert you by the sword.
Seventhly, I have been a Swayamsevak…per oath..still am, attended the OTCs…have worked with various Pracharaks…known and interacted with important people in that organization, worked for the BJP, the VHP, was a member of the Bajrang Dal…was City Secretary in the ABVP…have seen action during the Rama Janmabhoomi campaign…1989-1992. Have organized folks and rioted too…in Hassan district. I respect the intelligence and drive of people like Elst..Goel…and Swarup. I had some respect for Shourie…until he did a miserable job at assassinating Ambedkar. The RSS itself attracts dedicated and sincere people…who are stifled and die as life passes them by. The organization makes Savarkar’s epitaph on the RSS a reality. I have studied the Sangh too deeply for it to occasion any more surprises in me.
So…please be done with your malignant “know all”…arrogance.
On 06.21.07 Palahalli says:
“I don’t know why you repeatedly ask this silly, rather redundant question. If you so confidently assert that muslims are everywhere why do you doubt any interaction would be lacking?” - Just curious..that’s all.
And its very good and true that Muslim clerics are thinking in terms of secular education.
Trivia - Did you know that “Hindu” students also attend Mardrassas? That they employ “Hindu” teachers too?
On 06.21.07 shadows says:
Trivia - Did you know that “Hindu” students also attend Mardrassas? That they employ “Hindu” teachers too?
============
Palahali,
Since when did the exception become the norm ??
On 06.21.07 nkota says:
@Palahalli
Anecdotal evidence can not be used to rationalize things , please give statistical ones,
Worst thing is, as shadows pointed out, to pass off exception as a norm
On 06.21.07 Palahalli says:
In case you did not notice..I noted that it was trivia. Not to be used as part of the discussion. That was simply…fyi.
If you folks want stats…like brother Anonymous says…”Go figure!” Maybe you’ll also get to know the “Hindu” castes that mainly attend these Madrasas.
It’s time to appreciate positives around us…even if it comes from our Muslim community.
And I am supposed to be the bigot around here!
On 06.21.07 socal says:
>>>And its very good and true that Muslim clerics are thinking in terms of secular education.
This is a bit overreading of their protestations. Muslim clerics evidently interprete modernizing with maths, science and computers. In the most important social studies area, which can pave the way for their moderation, no such opinion has been forthcoming, which is a huge cause to worry. Their emphasis on the ultimacy of islamic religious studies as a guide for daily living still stands. However none of this indicts their ability to modernize. The problem hinges on the amt. of will displayed by them which is insufficient to address real-world problem of islamic fundamentalism.
On 06.22.07 socal says:
>>>Did you know that “Hindu” students also attend Mardrassas
What’s the result of their presence. Are the muslims in madarssas willing or allowed to learn Hindu ways? Or is the understanding one sided i.e. Hindus accepting Muslims but muslims won’t have none of it. Media just hypes up such isolated instances. Will those Hindu students go to these madarssas if affordable Hindu schools or convents were present in their vicinity? The devil lies in details and the leftists shrewdly avoid any mention of that. Therein lies the problem.
On 06.22.07 shadows says:
And I am supposed to be the bigot around here!
==========
No, we are the violent fundamentalist Hindu bigots..
Palahalli,
You know I can throw a lot of such “FYI” and “trivia” ??
>> It’s time to appreciate positives around us…even if it comes from our Muslim community.
We do. Like if we admire Dr APJ, we do it because he plays the Veena like the Hindus ??
Hey, wait a min,
Positives?? But how many are there ? Should we not criticize the negatives then ??
On 06.22.07 Vikas says:
Palahalli,
I see that you have descended to the ‘flowery language’ realm and are looking for backdoor exits.
I have NOT stated that Islamic radicalism is the same as H-Vadi radicalism.
***Which means what, IR>HVR or IR
On 06.22.07 Vikas says:
I see that you have descended to the ‘flowery language’ realm and are looking for backdoor exits.
I have NOT stated that Islamic radicalism is the same as H-Vadi radicalism.
++Which means what, IR greater than HVR or IR less than HVR? And how does it answer “Show me the global network of Hindutvadi’s justifying the killings of non Hindus with the Hindu holy texts (Ved, Gita)? Muslims do that.” when YOU EQUATED H-V’s WITH ISLAMISTS(your post#49).
Secondly, anybody who cannot…will not..differentiate between crazed fundamentalists and innocent folk should think again…to put it very mildly.
++I know it, Unkel. But first, intelligent men like you should define and help me in identifying moderate muslim and a fake moderate so that I, an ignoramus average joe, can differentiate between them.
“wars on terror that are going on around the world today, the H-Vadi voice is minimal to non-existent”
++Wars on terror around the world are a Xtian crusade against Islam, why should H-V’s get involved in that?
On the Salman Rushdie ‘knighting’ fiasco, what UK has done is nothing short of slapping the British muslims on their face and it is deplorable, playing with the sentiments of Brit muslims, why should we replicate it here in India? Just because the angrez did it.
On 06.23.07 Palahalli says:
Socal: You may have a point on the social studies part of education that is being provided. But, we have also observed the utter lack of “social” content in terms of grooming conscientious citizens in our “regular” schools. Indeed…we have glaringly dilinquent examples of children who have had “better” education..so to speak.
For a system that initially resisted even natural sciences..this is certainly a leap. Exposure to these “new” trends and studies..will also help lessen the impact of a purely religious curriculum. The opportunities these will generate will enable our Muslim children to work and mingle with their fellow citizens.
I do not know of a Muslim friend who has studied in a Madrasa. But they are Muslims nevertheless.
The pressure to succeed in these times..will add to the urgency of these measures. We witness this trend today.
I do not know about “Hindu” children learning “Hindu” ways and manners in Madrassas. It is improbable that these castes can even relate to “Hindu” manners in the sense that these are understood by the “mainstream”. Small wonder that these our “lower” caste kids…mainly Dalit, feel at home in these schools. Of course..there is a lack of “Hindu” schools which will accept these kids.
Let’s forget about the forever “evil” media for a minute and reflect on reality.
Per informed sources, mainly the West Bengal Madrasa system…where there are most “Hindu” students attending, Islamic learning occurs in the higher classes. Not in the junior and middle levels. There is some reference found on a blog on Madrasas.
http://madrasa.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/what-role-for-madrasas-that-teach-hindus/
***********
Shadows: “Hindus” cannot be fundamentalists. However, they can certainly be bigots and fanatics.
I wonder if Kalam would be pleased to call his..a “Hindu” family
Or not call himself a Muslim.
No..do not ignore the negatives..but when you find positives, please let us be men enough to recognize and nurture them.
**********
Vikas: Do you have friends amongst Muslims?
On the so called “crusades” being waged…I wonder if Praveen Togadia spoke with you prior to offering his support to the Vatican in the fight against Islam.
“On the Salman Rushdie ‘knighting’ fiasco, what UK has done is nothing short of slapping the British muslims on their face and it is deplorable, playing with the sentiments of Brit muslims, why should we replicate it here in India? Just because the angrez did it.” - You sound so much like Nehru. So, this is not pandering to extremism?
If I were you…I woudld either study the subject…or experience my surroundings.
On 06.23.07 badindianmofo says:
Palahalli, you’re probably right, the NDA administration was only interested in milking the Lajja/Nasreen issue - all politics, as you put it. But you tread lightly on the issue of why the oh-so secular groups never even touched it with a barge pole. How is it then that the BJP always gets referred to as ‘right wing’, ‘Hindu Nationalist’ or ‘fundamentalists’ (within India and internationally)? I don’t remember those labels being used for the Congress, Commies or pretty much anyone outside the Parivar. Not even the IUML (except by those you might dismiss as H-Vadis).
Care to enlighten? I ask only out of curiosity, btw. Not because I’m into Hindutva or because I believe all Muslims are terrorists.
On 06.23.07 badindianmofo says:
Also, whether the media is evil or not, it has surely been holier than thou and somewhat economical with the truth. Most of our secular commentators have no problems attacking BJP/Parivar, either directly or through innuendo, yet their stance is unclear on certain other issues. They were not so eager to defend freedom of speech for Satanic Verses or the Danish cartoons. I don’t condone the violence against Chandramohan or Hussain’s gallery, but just as you would have us recognise everything positive, let’s also recognise all wrongs.
On 06.24.07 Palahalli says:
Palahalli, you’re probably right, the NDA administration was only interested in milking the Lajja/Nasreen issue - all politics, as you put it.
- Agreed.
*********
But you tread lightly on the issue of why the oh-so secular groups never even touched it with a barge pole.
- You have not found me defending any so-called secular position. There is no such thing as “fair” politics in this country. What I find more than amusing is the fact that beraters of the “secular” front…will put the H-Vadis on a high pedestal…and then the “debate” easily descends into simple generalizations and bombast.
I am not the person who will defend the “secular” dispensation blindly. The same is my position on the H-Vadis.
********
How is it then that the BJP always gets referred to as ‘right wing’, ‘Hindu Nationalist’ or ‘fundamentalists’ (within India and internationally)? I don’t remember those labels being used for the Congress, Commies or pretty much anyone outside the Parivar. Not even the IUML (except by those you might dismiss as H-Vadis).
- I will not hesitate to say that the blame lies with the H-Vadis.
They have not done three things:
a. They have criminally neglected to build a media of their own.
b. They have been/are intellectually bereft.
c. They never distance themselves from people who will and can hurt their reputation.
eg: Acharya Giriraj Kishore - A man who condoned the lynching of Dalits in Jhaggar and then called for an autopsy on the cow that these Dalits had skinned. This man still is a highly regarded member of the VHP’s Dharma Sansad and a high office bearer.
Why should the H-Vadis expect kindness from folk they practically claim to be anti-Hindu and traitors to the land? Is this not a bit ludicrous? Instead…why not build a counterpoint and communicate it through their own media? How many channels did they build in the six years they ruled?
They lose in the market place of ideas because their wares are not there in the first place. All that is there is spurious. Anti- Valentines Day….beating up missionaries and artistes…and such other glorious works.
I am most certain there are counter points to what I have said…but can you deny these observations?
On 06.24.07 Ot says:
I seem to have emtered this juicy debate almost at the end
but “palahalli” here is very very interesting.
“palahalli” seems to think “Hindus” don’t exist
apparently because they are divided by caste. But “Muslims” are a reality for the dude, never mind that sunnis are blowing up shias, shias are returning the favor whenever they can, and both are after Ahmedias. (incidentally, the shebang in Kahsmir, mis-labeled as “Kashmiri separatasim” is the creation of a very narrow segment of people — some of the valley’s Sunnis — who are not even represenatiave of all of Kashmir’s “Muslims”, let alone of Kashmiris.)
More importantly, there is another fascinating dimension to “Muslims” that I want to debate with our “palahalli” here. Which is: where did our friend get this fancy idea that there are no castes among “Muslims”? Did he somehow just get this notion into his head, without rhyme or reason, or did he pick it up from some commie twerp’s “history” book?
On 06.25.07 Palahalli says:
Thanks for joining the debate Ot…but I want to help place yourself on the proper track..
- It has never been my claim that Muslims are ONE in their motivations and actions and even goals. They have enough dissentions and differences amongst themselves. However, the Koran is the same for ALL Muslims.
I’m almost worried about you being able to get our “Muslims are this and Muslims are that” pals in the debate off your back. Your crack on Kashmir may simply not go down very well with them
*******
On Caste and Muslims: Here’s what I said…
#47:”Heck…the latest trend is for the H-Vadis to point toward caste amongst Muslims. Not that I disagree with them there. But then…where is Caste in the Koran??”
The operative being - “”Not” that I disagree with them there.”
On 06.25.07 nkota says:
http://underway.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/o-privire-asupra-literaturii-indiene-anantha-murthy-si-bhyrappa/
wonder what is written, google translator did not work, probably it is romanian..
….
On 06.25.07 Palahalli says:
nkota: Looks like Romanian. Maybe even Bulgarian. Noticed some Romanie…and sorts. Will a translator on the system help?
It does look like an English article has been trnslated though.
On 06.25.07 Ot says:
>> Your crack on Kashmir may simply not go down very well with them
This is funny. Perhaps because “palahall’s” “father” drilled into his head right from childhood some myths about “Muslims”, “palahalli” continues to believe his “father” without applying his own mind. The consequences are truly tragicomic: he is telling us that Martians won’t be happy if you tell them that the blue cheese that Mars is made of is melting.
>>However, the Koran is the same for ALL Muslims.
Smart chap this. Why is it “self-evident” to this guy that having one “common” Koran makes a “community”? Only yesterday a bunch of Sunnis killed a bunch of shias in Iraq. They are even bombing each other’s mosques. (Hindus aren’t bombing each others’ temples!) Police found that the recent Hyderabad mosque bombing is a Sunni outfit’s handiwork against Shias.
It is not the Shia-Sunni-Qadiyani divide alone that plagues the “people” of one “common” Quran. Uppercaste “Muslims”, the friends of “palahalli”, are beating the stuffing out of lowercaste “Muslims”:
—
PATNA, FEBRUARY 23: A meeting convened by the high power Sachar Committee today to identify solutions for the social, economic and educational backwardness of India’s Muslims culminated in fists and blows over the issue of reservations for the minority community. Around half a dozen persons were injured in the clash.
Four members of the committee—constituted by the Centre to study the blockages that afflict Muslim society and to suggest steps to remove them— were here to hold meetings with different Muslim bodies and individuals. Tensions ran high when the Pasmanda Muslim Mahaj, an organisation championing the cause of Dalit Muslims, demanded that reservation to Muslims should be based on caste and not on religion. Mahaj
president Ali Anwar argued that as among the Hindus, caste-based backwardness also exists in Muslim society. If reservations were extended to the Muslim community as a whole, then only the upper castes or the affluent would end up benefitting, he alleged.
This view was vehemently opposed by another group which wants the Muslim community as a whole to get reservations. They argued that caste distinction was against Islam and stressed that the community in its entirety was backward. This led to angry protests from both sides—finally the meeting turned into a battle ground, with even chairs and flower pots being hurled in the attack. Anwar went on to allege that
everything was pre-planned by State Minority Welfare secretary Aashiq Ibrahimi to throttle the voice of Dalit Muslims. He demanded a high-level probe into the incident and later boycotted the meeting.
‘‘The pre-planned attack has proved how upper castes among Muslims are trying to suppress Dalit Muslims,’’ he said. ‘‘We will continue our struggle and will not allow affluent Muslims to take advantage of reservation.’’
For his part, Aashiq Ibrahimi denied the allegation and instead charged that the violence was started by the Mahaj members. Sociologist, Dr S F Rab, who attended the meeting termed the incident unfortunate
and said it was regrettable that the core issue of the minority community’s backwardness had been hijacked.
—
Look at that! For saying that uppercaste “Muslims” should not ride on the reservation bandwagon, lowercaste “Muslims” get beaten to pulp!!
Isn’t that weird. Our good friend’s “Muslims” are divided along shia-sunni-qadiyani lines, a sectarian division, to the extent that these sects bomb each other, and they are also divided along caste lines, with lowercaste “Muslims” getting a raw deal. And what does “Palahalli” have to offer these “Muslims”? One “common” book! Ha ha. Humourous fellow.
On 06.25.07 Palahalli says:
Ot: That was a pretty good duck from your earlier faux pas :)…But has it worked?
1. Muslims are fighting themselves -
Deduction - The Ummah…if represented by ALL Muslims, is not working. If represented by Islamists, is serving to prove that one sect wants to get over the other…or could be fighting oppression by the more dominant sect.
In any case, is no support to the H-Vadi propaganda that Muslims are united by The Book…in their motivations and goals. Your Kashmir hypothesis is correct, but will not support H-Vadi contention of a conspiracy by the Muslims.
2. Muslims have lower and higher castes -
Deduction - Of course they do. I have never argued otherwise. What then, is the H-Vadi worry? The Muslims for all practical purposes now look like the “Hindus”. Except for their chief Book. The only reason they remain without quotes, to my mind. They can never say…”it is written in the Koran that you must serve me”. At least not to their own fellow Muslims.
3. “Hindus” don’t bomb each other’s temples -
Required/desired deduction - “Hindus” respect each other’s places of worship and actually love each other. Naturally, they are very much united. Apart from being “humorous”…it is actually an insult to those amongst the “Hindus” that suffer to this day.
At least the oppressed amongst the Muslims are able to fight back.
The only lucky ones amongst “Hindus” are the oppressors. The oppressed amongst them can hardly seek inspiration from their holy books to fight back. Is this the reason “Hindu” fighters do away with any notion of “Hinduism”? The LTTE never considered itself “Hindu”..for instance.
But..let’s go on.
“Hindus” should then be able to convince Muslims and Christians *also caste ridden* to claim themselves “Hindus”. More of the Muslims and Christians should actually rush headlong toward the nearest VHP Dharmadhikari and offer themselves to be converted. Ghar Vapasi really.
And…how did you divine that Upper Caste anythings…are my friends?
Post that…we can all stop our little debates and Sandeep can retire his blog or direct it’s interests elsewhere ;)…But before Sandeep can decide…you Sir, must convince our friends that Muslims can be and are nearly as diverse as the “Hindus”…except for The Book. I exaggerate a bit on the diverseness…that’s ok.
On 06.25.07 Vikas says:
Palahalli:
Do you have friends amongst Muslims?
+++ Meeting a few muslim chicks and guys is irrelevant to the big pic(Islam is a threat to India).
On the so called “crusades” being waged…I wonder if Praveen Togadia spoke with you prior to offering his support to the Vatican in the fight against Islam.
+++Quite rich coming from someone who had his chaddi in knots when words like LALLu, commie, marxist came up. Pinko hypocrite
So, this is not pandering to extremism?
+++Sorry if it was not clear to you. I meant, UK is fueling the ‘root cause’ of terrorism.
Why don’t you give your ‘moral relativism’ gyan on some Islamic forums and see the welcome that you get? They are the people in need of your ‘moral’ guidance, not
the commenters here.
BTW, you have not helped me in finding the unicorn in the forest, moderate muslim and fake moderate diff^? Post #48 onwards!
On 06.25.07 Ot says:
>>In any case, is no support to the H-Vadi propaganda that Muslims are united by The Book
This is even funnier. Which joker said in this debate that “Muslims” have one book and that therefore unlike Hindus they are one people? Not any Hindutvavadi.
Perhaps the Islamist-long Red clowns have more in common with Hindutvavadis than they admit.
>>Muslims have lower and higher castes -
Deduction - Of course they do. I have never argued otherwise. What then, is the H-Vadi worry?
Once again, the obfuscating Red chaps seem in the habit of forgetting their own “arguments”. Let me jog the memory of these silly fellows:
“There is no meaning to the term in its religious sense unless we take into account its caste-outcaste structure. ”
There is no meaning to the term “Muslim” unless we take into account the Shia-Sunnia-Qadiyani-Uppercaste “Muslim”-Lowercaste “Muslim” structure either.
Let us take the case I illustrated.
“Anwar went on to allege that
everything was pre-planned by State Minority Welfare secretary Aashiq Ibrahimi to throttle the voice of Dalit Muslims.”
Who is the “Muslim” here? The uppercaste minister? Or the lowercaste Anwar who got beaten up?
>>They can never say…”it is written in the Koran that you must serve me”.
Arre bhai, if uppercaste “Muslims” oppress lowercastes even when allegedly it is not in their book, imagine just what they would do if it is??
Contrariwise, the exhortation to “slay the idolaters wherever ye find them” IS in the book. Should we take the Red brigade’s claim then that what is written in the book influences the outcome to deduce that loot, the killings, and the rapes of Kashmir’s Hindus are inspired by the Koran?
>>At least the oppressed amongst the Muslims are able to fight back.
I encourage our friend “Palahalli” to tell the beaten-up Anwar above that “at least you guys are fighting back”. No doubt Anwar would be thrilled.
I bet “Palahalli’s” “father” also taught him that uppercaste “Muslims” don’t oppress lowercaste “Muslims”.
>>And…how did you divine that Upper Caste anythings…are my friends?
When a “palahalli” engages in an elaborate ritual of denial claiming that “Muslims” are one people, that uppercaste “Muslims” don’t oppress lowercaste “Muslims”, that no “Muslim” oppresses any other “Muslim” allegedly because there is no oppression advocated in the book — it is pretty easy to divine who “Palahalli” is fronting for.
>>must convince our friends that Muslims can be and are nearly as diverse as the “Hindus”
Actually, it is our “Palahalli” that needs to provide us proof that “Muslims” are as much united as Hindus are. Point is, one set of Hindus don’t walk into a temple with guns and pump bullets into another set of Hindus. “Muslims” do.
I attribute “Palahalli’s” mental cobwebs to multiple factors. Definitely, his “father’s” commie indoctrination seems to be there. Furthermore, some idiotic notion that “unity” consists of sporting a beard, wearing a skullcap, putting women under the veil, having a “common” book etc etc!!
>>The LTTE never considered itself “Hindu”..for instance.
Could be because there are non-Hindus among them. Could be because they are commies! I know a commie clown who was born Catholic, but is so ashemed of his birth that he dare not identify himself as a Christian, but spends his life fronting for Islamists on the net!!
On 06.25.07 badindianmofo says:
Palahalli (#82), you say BJP never distanced itself from people that could hurt its image/credibility. This is hardly unique in Indian politics. Laloo is a cabinet minister, so was Jagdish Tytler (may be still is, not sure) and HKL Bhagat didn’t suffer a scratch. Yet why has the Congress not been called communal or cateist? Could it be because divisive politics is fine as long as it suits lower castes or religious minorities? Could it be that the media, or at least some sections, are really as evil as your favourite Hindutvawadis? The so-called secular parties are just brazen and they have plenty of support.
On 06.25.07 Palahalli says:
Vikas:
+++ Meeting a few muslim chicks and guys is irrelevant to the big pic(Islam is a threat to India).
* Ah…some progress. What do you do then? After meeting these “chicks and guys”?
****
+++Quite rich coming from someone who had his chaddi in knots when words like LALLu, commie, marxist came up. Pinko hypocrite
* Oops…did not know “Praveen Togadia” is now a swear word. Sorry.
*****
+++Sorry if it was not clear to you. I meant, UK is fueling the ‘root cause’ of terrorism.
* Oh ok. So standing up to Salman Rushdie’s right to write and honoring him for his works inspite of fanatic opposition is to you…”fuelling “root cause” of terrorism?”
*****
Why don’t you give your ‘moral relativism’ gyan on some Islamic forums and see the welcome that you get? They are the people in need of your ‘moral’ guidance, not
the commenters here.
* “Moral relativism”? Talking against “Hindu” arrogance is “Moral relativism”? Why feel so uncomfortable?
*****
BTW, you have not helped me in finding the unicorn in the forest, moderate muslim and fake moderate diff^? Post #48 onwards!
* Your answer to question one of this post will tell you.
Ot:
This is even funnier. Which joker said in this debate that “Muslims” have one book and that therefore unlike Hindus they are one people? Not any Hindutvavadi.
* Hmmm…so the Koran is not really a uniting factor. The fact that Muslims all over the world look toward this one Book…does not mean that it unites them. But somehow this Book motivates all of them to look at the Kafir as sub-human. Interesting.
*****
“There is no meaning to the term “Muslim” unless we take into account the Shia-Sunnia-Qadiyani-Uppercaste “Muslim”-Lowercaste “Muslim” structure either.”
- Be my guest. I’m all for it. Only..reckon without the Koran.
*****
“Who is the “Muslim” here? The uppercaste minister? Or the lowercaste Anwar who got beaten up?”
- Both actually. Both go to Mosques and both read the Koran. Both consider Allah the only God and Mohammed, Allah’s only Prophet.
*****
Arre bhai, if uppercaste “Muslims” oppress lowercastes even when allegedly it is not in their book, imagine just what they would do if it is??
- ?????
Contrariwise, the exhortation to “slay the idolaters wherever ye find them” IS in the book. Should we take the Red brigade’s claim then that what is written in the book influences the outcome to deduce that loot, the killings, and the rapes of Kashmir’s Hindus are inspired by the Koran?
* The “Red Brigade” claims that? Is that not a H-Vadi claim? I will be happy if the claim is not yours.
Do you still not see the link between circumstances/surroundings and people?
*****
I encourage our friend “Palahalli” to tell the beaten-up Anwar above that “at least you guys are fighting back”. No doubt Anwar would be thrilled.
- Not necessary. We will know when he meets his neighbourhood Dharmadhikari and converts to “Hinduism”.
*****
I bet “Palahalli’s” “father” also taught him that uppercaste “Muslims” don’t oppress lowercaste “Muslims”.
- I guess my father spoke with you a lot more he did with me.
*****
When a “palahalli” engages in an elaborate ritual of denial claiming that “Muslims” are one people, that uppercaste “Muslims” don’t oppress lowercaste “Muslims”, that no “Muslim” oppresses any other “Muslim” allegedly because there is no oppression advocated in the book — it is pretty easy to divine who “Palahalli” is fronting for.
- Hmmm…Muslims are ONE people? Why would I provide our H-Vadis with a stick like that? The rest is good imagination.
*****
Actually, it is our “Palahalli” that needs to provide us proof that “Muslims” are as much united as Hindus are. Point is, one set of Hindus don’t walk into a temple with guns and pump bullets into another set of Hindus. “Muslims” do.
* I suppose Hedgewar missed all this somehow. Him and his pals back in 1925 were real oafs..huh?
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I attribute “Palahalli’s” mental cobwebs to multiple factors. Definitely, his “father’s” commie indoctrination seems to be there. Furthermore, some idiotic notion that “unity” consists of sporting a beard, wearing a skullcap, putting women under the veil, having a “common” book etc etc!!
* What else did my father tell you?
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Could be because there are non-Hindus among them. Could be because they are commies! I know a commie clown who was born Catholic, but is so ashemed of his birth that he dare not identify himself as a Christian, but spends his life fronting for Islamists on the net!!
* Could be anything..but the way it is! Anyways…your probably an innocent bystander wanting to do a good deed. The H-Vadis are pleased to call the LTTE a Christian conspiracy.
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?id=1141381467&type=articles
On 06.25.07 Palahalli says:
badindianmofo - I think the better way would be to clean our homes before pointing fingers.
Btw - I will not deny your observation about our politics. I just don’t like empty and “clever” bombast. It makes the proponents think all others are fools.
On 06.25.07 Ot says:
>>Hmmm…so the Koran is not really a uniting factor
Only in the eyes of Red nutcases.
If Koran were such a unifying factor, why do Sunnis routinely barge into Shia mosques, and kill those reciting verses from that very Koran?
To prove “Muslims” exist as a unified community, our friend “palahalli” needs to demonstrate that that unity exists in the real world. If he did that, and then claimed that this existing unity of “Muslims” follows from having one common book, that’d still be “post hoc ergo procter hoc” but he wouldn’t at least be sounding half as commie-nutty as he is now. But his actual logic is even more bizarre, probably owing ot the indoctrination by his “father”: he insists that because there is one common book, “Muslims” are united, no matter that they are bombing each our senseless, and no matter that they oppress their lower-castes.
Hilarious fellow, indeed.
>>The “Red Brigade” claims that? Is that not a H-Vadi claim? I will be happy if the claim is not yours.
Actually, my argument precisely is that there is no such thing as “Muslims” (note the quotes); that there are actually Sunnis, Shias, Qadiyanis, asraf, ajlaf etc etc, all lumped together in a mythical entity called “Muslims”, generally by those who are apologists are Islamic fundamentalism. I even gave an example: there is no such thing as “Kashmiri separatism”. There is no such thing as even “Kashmiri Muslim separatism”. It is a ruckus created by a few Sunni killers backed by Pakistan, thats all.