Unsurprisingly, Dilip D’Souza wants readers to share their original definitions of Hindutva.
What is Hindutva? Why should it appeal to me?
These are serious, sincere questions.
If you’re willing to answer them in that same spirit, please leave a comment. In your own words, explained as you understand it and you’d like others to understand it: simply, clearly.
If you ask somebody’s ideas, just ask, using qualifiers like “sincerely” opens your intentions to doubt.
I’m more puzzled that a person whose anti-Hindutva stance stands out rock-steady for these many years has ignored a basic principle: learn before you criticize.
The baiting shouldn’t have been this blatant.
Tags: Indian Politics, Media Watch, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, War on Communism, Weblogs
I’m more puzzled that a person whose anti-Hindutva stance stands out rock-steady for these many years has ignored a basic principle: learn before you criticize.
=============
Hahaha.. all the while , he did not even know what he was criticizing..
Sandeep as much as I like you I must ask you to stop linking to moronic twins (big boob journalist and eminent blogger), else I have no option but to invade Blore
This is hilarious - All this after stating so many time that Hindutva was the biggest threat to the nation and it would destroy the country before PAkistan could -
Now he is asking everybody what Hindutva is .
The thing that is not funny is the fact that he and his fellow travellers have been peddling lies and writing all kinds of untruths and lies while writing against Hindutva.
Here is another experiment. What is Anti- Hindutva? A few points below
•Always downplay the positives of Indic culture and civilisation and
highlight the negatives and throw muck at it on the global stage.
•State that there is no such thing as Brand India and that it has a
position on the global stage while creating a mythical identity of
a South Asia.
•State that concepts like nationalism, pariotism and national
identities are hollow concepts and state that humanism, human
identity are the only things that count.
•Label anything that contradicts their version of history as
saffronisation – look at their attacks against the Aryan invasion
theory.
•Never raise any voice when ‘members of other communities indulge in
riots and violence for issues that are remote from India as the
distance from the middle-east (pun intended)
•Scream freedom of speech every time an artist with a fetish of
painting Hindu deities nude is attacked or his works vandalized and
maintain a silence when again certain communities riot against
provocative cartoons – in some cases even support the rioters.
•Ensure that terrorists and other anti-national people escape the
noose and invoke human rights when some terrorists are gunned down.
•Occasionally write some piece on how the rights voice has been
muffled. When those voices speak up, use the standard S word –
saffronisation.
Please add to the above list any more Anti-Hindutva behavior
Flashback:
This is not baiting, this is hatred, plain and simple. He wants to destroy Hindus, India can be collateral damage, he does not care.
Sandeep,
Quiet apart from the understanding that Dilip might be a “bleeding heart” liberal..his questions need to be taken seriously for their own sake.
The dichotomy between the Sangh school of thought and even within this school…between the BJP and say the VHP…has caused grave confusion in the ranks. These are not simply “strategic” fault lines but are really, ideological.
The less said about the dichotomy between the Bharatvani School and the Sangh “intellectuals”…the better.
In the earlier days, a different kind of feuding was seen in Savarkarian conceit wrt to the RSS ethic…and visa versa. Within this feud…lay seeds of differences in competing visions of Hindutva.
Today, the Sangh as vanguard of this movement for unity and strength amongst “Hindus”, has not gained the respect of large sections of the “Hindu” depressed, inspite of some admirable work that is being done amongst these our sections.
There is something very wrong somewhere. Such confusion can lead only to lumpenization and not a renaissance.
Elst is very correct when he says there is a lot of “Hindu” revivalism going on outside of the Sangh ambit also.
However, it is of utmost importance that each segment of its intended constituency must be touched by its manifestations. For that to happen, this “upsurge” must become relevant to our people’s lives.
When the Sangh was much more energetic, it was imbued with strong symbolism. Today, the fear is that with the loss of symbolism that actually cloaked some solid constructive work, it may have lost a lot of its credibility too.
And, the question still remains….What is Hindutva? What is its basis? What does it encompass?
Big D’s post is a not so inscrutable attempt at bait and switch. We know how much he values what Hindutva, Hinduness or the larger Hindu identity is to a common Hindu. What he is trying with this post is clear- 1. lure Hindus to his blog(into commenting)– he knows people visit his blog but simply ignore it (vote of no confidence if you may), hence the occassional post on Hindutva, Ram Janmabhoomi issue etc., 2. appealing in cutesy high-school fashion–sort of, ok kids, let’s talk why you like fruitcake? I find this patronizing, covert condescension extremely repulsive. And for some reason the secular socialist establishment is badly afflicted by this syndrome(which explains why they fold up when faced with a formidable muslim, paki or chinese).
If he were indeed “sincere” he would atleast mention how he has tried to understand the term e.g. has he atleast read Savarkar’s pioneering work - ‘Hindutva’? Has he indulged in a non-prejudiced dialogue with anyone from the Hindu organizations? etc. For those in US, it costs a dollar($1) on abebooks.com. Check the link below:-
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Savarkar&y=0&x=0
>>>Sandeep as much as I like you I must ask you to stop linking to moronic twins (big boob journalist and eminent blogger), else I have no option but to invade Blore
Gaurav,
(Though it may not matter)I slightly disagree with your observation which is clearly made in jest. The eminent blogger is a pucca socialite harlot and after money. Big D is not money oriented hence relatively tolerable.
@Sandeep
COMMENT # 5 : TROLL ALERT
Sri…I think Sandeep has already been warned about THIS Troll
Sweet dreams….
Palahalli
Regards your comments -
his questions need to be taken seriously for their own sake.
And, the question still remains….What is Hindutva? What is its basis? What does it encompass?
Please do us all a favor and go to Dilip’s blog to answer these and argue about these issues until the cows come home. But please spare us any more torture.
Yes, but even though you call it “2 qns answered”, you have not answered the questions.
Why? Are you afraid? ashamed? don’t have an answer? whut?
I don’t know what it is. Please tell me.
> lure Hindus to his blog(into commenting)–
> he knows people visit his blog but simply ignore it
went and looked at comments for various recent posts on that blog. A sample of names: Nitin Pai. Jai Chorakoot. Amit Verma. Vinod Khare. paresh. G Swarup. suresh. pavitra. confused. Samir. Nikhil.
none of them Hindu. of course not.
>>>none of them Hindu. of course not.
Don’t know about others, but Varma is a self-proclaimed “atheist.”
Any reason why Dilip permanently blocks people like me who would sure like to answer him? What is he afraid of? Did he ask Valson Thampu any questions? Don’t think so!
This is what he is about. He wants people to say exactly what he wants to hear. Moreover, he supports systematically silencing people who might reveal inconvenient truths. He doesn’t want answers, he wants his opinions expressed by his chamchas on his blog so he can feel good about himself and occupy the moral high ground.
Hindus must be on the defensive, all of the times. Hindus don’t even know what Hindutva is! Har har har!
The ideal of secular debate. Har har har har!
I have just one question for Dilip.
Why should Hindus subsidize education for Christians?
Niketan: “Please do us all a favor and go to Dilip’s blog to answer these and argue about these issues until the cows come home. But please spare us any more torture.”
- However, I am very interested in knowing how this blog defines Hindutva.
So…instead of labelling fellow members “Trolls”…and other assorted abuses, why not share your insights?
Btw…I will also take your advice and post on Dilip’s blog.
I find it very difficult to take an engineer, who claims an even number greater than 2 is prime, seriously.
Now he is out with the real reason why he put up that post:
Let me get this straight.
1. He puts up a post asking questions.
2. The ‘others’ claim that it is merely baiting.
3. His chamchas come out in his support and berate the ‘others’ stating that the others do not have the gall to answer him.
4. He himself comes out in the open and states that he had some other reason for that post.
The # of comments on this blog about the topic is far more than the number of comments on DDD’d blog. One reason for this could be :- DDD selectively responds to people when the time and the tide are right. I am still waiting for a response on another post there
Any reason why Dilip permanently blocks people like me who would sure like to answer him?
Is this another lie that will not be backed up? why not leave a comment there so we can see fr ourselves if it is being blocked?
Members,
I think there is scope to take this dialogue with Dilip forward.
Anybody interested?
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8070362&postID=7950416298101414000
Regards,
Palahalli,
>>However, I am very interested in knowing how this blog defines Hindutva.
Soon, when my work gives me breathing space and time.
Thou shalt be answered sir!
Thank you Sandeep.
Palahalli wrote:
“What is Hindutva? Why should it appeal to me?
These are serious, sincere questions.”
I don’t understand why these are “serious” questions. (As to “sincere”, well, I doubt that any political animal such as “Palahalli” can be seriously sincere.)
For example, I would not seriously consider a question like:
“What is Islam? Why should it appeal to me?”
unless some Tablighi Muslim is pestering me to convert to Islam.
If “Palahalli” and his “father” are grappling with demons, that is their problem. The very fact that the chap pretends that the onus is on somebody else to convince him of anything shows that the dude is up to the usual trickery. Or is it that, owing to his Marxist indoctrination, he is really stripped of the ability to reason?
Sorry Ot,
******Palahalli wrote:
“What is Hindutva? Why should it appeal to me?
These are serious, sincere questions.”******
Palahalli DID not write. Dilip wrote. Rather, asked.
Well, I think its late now and you need sleep.
I have few questions (credit to Barbar) on similar line.
1. What is patriotism or nationalism? Why should it NOT appeal to me? (Can we pass an amendment and abolish independence day and republic day extravaganza? The money can be diverted to millions of poor, wretched Indians. Let’s remove all poverty before we celebrate in any manner. No sweets, no fireworks, no parades till every Indians gets food, education and every woman is completely free. Not even world social forum dinners.)
2. What is socialism? Why should it appeal to me- over equality ?
I hope the aam aadmi-friendly UPA and the its ruling deity, maata Sonia, quickly act on my suggestions and bring a patriotism/nationalism banning amendment forthwith. Let there be no jingoism. Even Indian army should be banned because it abets jingoism by inspiring poets and bollywood songs that can fan the cruder sentiments of aam aadmi. If you lived in muslim basti you would know how nationalism endangers social harmony and communal peace. For secularism’s sake let’s act now.
I am an atheist too, socal. So a question. An atheist is not a “hindu”? So if an atheist who was born hindu talks about hindutva, he is still an outsider? Should his views on hindutva not be taken seriously?
Palahalli:
My my….”collective guilt” huh? Where do I dwell on Caste…?
++Your Post# 40. My earlier post was addressed to Socal not you, in case you missed it. I’m sure that you do not read the psts, and simply respond in a knee jerk manner and forget things. Remedy, take a chill pill plus a 30+ capsule, unkal.
—-
**C’mon. You live in Bangalore? Anybody on this board does?? I live in an area surrounded by Muslim families. I invite you to my home. I will also take you to these neigbours…and if you see one old man….with a girl as his wife…I will revert back to your glorious H-Vadi thought process.
++I don’t stay in B’lore, anyway, where will you take me, to the recently caught Al-Qaeda jihadi’s homes. Haha! This is a classic case of ‘deepak taley andhera’. Muslims from Bangalore, get caught recently in UK and Oz for terrorist activities and this fella is saying ’see everything is OK, nobody has bombed me’. Get out of your house or read up before writing these silly posts? Maybe, you’ll NOT scream jeeeehaaad even when a bomb goes off underneath your a*s. Everyone is not bumf**ked braindead as you, pal.
Trivia:Why don’t muslims eat pork? Because Mo did not like it.
**People worship Gandhi even to this day. People died for him at one time. A nation prostrated at his feet in times of need….and an old Gandhi slept with two naked women. He called it his test of celibacy. No one….Not One…even of your H-Vadi heroes dared bring this up. Not when he lived…and not to this day! Ever read the Ekatmata Stotra good buddy?? Gandhi in given a place amongst heroes in it.
++You are entitled to your opinions about Gandhi, you don’t like him, fine with me. This Hindutvavadi likes Gandhi. Next comes The Big Leap, comparing Gandhi with Mohammed.
Gandhi was a human being, not god or apostle of god. Gandhi, might be mentioned in a stotr but he is not mentioned in Shruti and Smriti Prasthan (my holy books, V and BG). Mention of freedom fighters in stotr (hymns) don’t make them gods. Child m*lester Mo is there in koran and ahadith, ‘holy’ book for muslims. Gandhi, a human being, sleeping with 2 naked women, gets you to say “Chee Chee”. OK. I’m all ears to what you’ll say to,
——–
Bukhari,Book 002, Number 0572:
Ayesha (Mo’s 9 year old wife) said “In case I found that (sem*n) on the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) dried up, I scraped it off with my nails”.
——–
What do you say to a Mo’s 9 year old wife, Ayesha cleaning s*men? Chee Chee? Or wow, thats sh*ggadelic?
I hope you do not support Mo’s child rap*ng and ogling other girls and women since I have not seen one line from you against Mo’s pa*dophilia and other assorted debauchery? Want another one of Ayesha and Mo escapades, I promise it’ll be as raunchy as this one if not more.
*****
- I did not expect a response from you.
++Since you’ve already made me a H-V brigadier, why don’t you define H-V for me? Why leave it half way? Anyway, nice try at goading but again, no dice.
Sorry posted my above reply in a wrong thread.
>>> I find it very difficult to take an engineer, who claims an even number greater than 2 is prime, seriously.
============
Who was this.. bigboob or Dilip? Not surprising.
Please dont respond to Palahalli, he is just looking to create trouble, he seems to have too much time on his hands..
For reference, I attach my comment below from the aavarana post. Palahalli stated again and again that Hindus attend madrassas. I told him that is not the norm. And he deliberately distorted my comment.
See below.
Its ok to discuss, but not with such dishonest argumentators.
=====================================================
>> And what may be the norm? That ALL Madrasas breed terrorists?
No, the norm is that Hindus dont attend madrassas.. Will you please stop distorting the issue ? First of all, understand the posts and then respond.
Maybe there is a job ready for you here.
Guys,
I can understand your frustation with Palahalli and you are responding with angry comments. Remember that he is using the typical commie secular tactic. He will beat around the bush, obfuscate the issues, twist your words, change the context, deliberately misunderstand your posts, ascribe motives to you, etc.. Like he did above with my post.. And the way he is doing to all your posts.
OK, but why is it that not one of the respondents here has actually tried to answer the original question, what is Hindutva? Is it that difficult?
Shuvro, the original question is indeed extremely difficult. Since Hinduism doesnt follow tenets of one central book as absolute, there is no reference point for it. Each one has a different interpretation. If you believe in Savarkar’s Hindutva, the cow is just an animal. Yet BJP governments fall over themselves banning cow slaughter. If you believe in Golwalkar’s Hindutva, then caste system has to be respected and upheld. But the BJP and even the RSS say they are opposed to the caste system. Similarly take up the ideas of Keshav Hedgewar, Aurobindo, Deendayal Upadhyay, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee et al, and observe the contradictions between themselves, and furthermore contradictions with the current purveyors of Hindutva.
The truth is, there is no central, datum level definition of Hindutva. Each one has his one. For some, the “saraswati civilization theory” has to be propounded and aryan invasion theory has to be opposed. Others couldn’t care less. Some believe Hinduism should be the “official religion” of India, that we should be declared a hindu rashtra. Others just want a uniform civil code, and want the minority-pandering stopped. Some are obsessed with the idea “mandir wahi banayenge”. Others are sick of Ayodhya.
I have grown up a Maharashtrian Brahmin, surrounded by Maharashtrian Brahmins in Pune and have come across all sorts of Hindutva. One common thread I see is a negative emotion towards Musims and Christians which ranges from mild distrust to deep hatred.
By the way, I find it hilarious whenever some right-wing bloggers use “atheist” as a slur. They would be well advised to read up on the religious beliefs of the man who coined the word “hindutva”. Read up about the intense rivalry in 30s, 40s and 50s between the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha on this very issue.
Sabnis,
Hindutva not Hinduism.
“By the way, I find it hilarious whenever some right-wing bloggers use “atheist” as a slur. They would be well advised to read up on the religious beliefs of the man who coined the word “hindutva”. Read up about the intense rivalry in 30s, 40s and 50s between the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha on this very issue. ”
So are you a follower of Savarkar, this “nationalist” would like to know. As an aside I doubt that you use “right-wing” in a complementary sense, my spidey senses have never failed me so far.
PS. Sabnis I have a feeling that this Shuvrowhathisname is your old “friend”, but it is also possible liberal education makes everyone retarded or conversely only retarted are admitted to liberal education, you know, to keep the hole tight and warm.
Gaurav,
Great response. You covered close to 100 years of history well
Namesake, I did mean hinduism and not hindutva. Let me spell it out. All other right-wing movements, whether christian, jewish or muslim, are rooted in books. There is greater consistency. Hinduism itself being a fragmented “religion” (which, by the way, I think is a good thing…. one-god-one-book-version religions are the dumbest of them all), the right-wing ideology deriving from it, i.e Hindutva, will not have one coherent toeing-the-party-line answer.
And again, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. This fragmented nature of Hindutva leaves a relatively greater latitude for internal dissent, which is why there are so many different viewpoints. Which are right and wrong? You judge for yourself, I will judge for myself.
I am not a “follower” of Savarkar. Though I was brought up in an atmosphere where he is revered excessively, I think he had many flaws. Int he early stage of his life, he was outstanding. Wrote great books, poems, espoused positive nationalism, earned many followers, and was the sort of guy you could idolize. Post-1930s, he increasingly became bitter, and towards the end was almost a hate-mongerer.
In the last comment I used right-wing as a classifier, and not as either a compliment or a pejorative.
Maybe in #33 I was being uncharitable when I said distrust-to-hatred towards Christians and Muslims was the only common thread. Following are some more of the common denominators -
1) Implementation of a uniform civil code.
2) A strong position on national security and foreign affairs, especially w.r.t Pakistan.
3) No minority-pandering… and by that I dont mean opposition to preferential treatment to minorities… because nothing even the pinkest government has done has ever helped minorities. Minority-pandering is basically pandering to nutcase mullahs and the like, Mulayam-style and Rajsekhar-Reddy-style.
4) Abolishing Article 370
But these common denominators, in spite of being of a nature that even most Congress-voters would approve of, are never followed when BJP is in power. Instead they concentrate on stupid issues like cow slaughter bans.
Sabnis,
Question was about Hindutva, sure you can discuss Hinduism, but atleast make explicit declaration, because words have meaning.
About Savarkar, while I am not exactly his follower, not having read his works in detail, I am glad he was such a “hate monger”, I mean what other option he had, Muslim league was openly calling for direct action, Ali Brothers were threatening jihad and meanwhile Mahatma Gandhi was asking Hindus to submit to Muslims, to be killed and Hindu women to be raped and made slave of. (Chronology is little helter skelter, bhavna ko samjha jaye)
I see you insist to continue with “right wing”, well it is all about branding isn’t it ? (Branding used in the other less pleasent sense).
And what is wrong with using “right wing” as a classifier? It is universally accepted. Certainly not a pejorative. I have heard of several bleeding hearts take exception to me calling them leftists but this is the first time that someone who believes in Hindutva objects to being called “right wing”.
Sabnis,
Because it is too vague and hence liable to be manipulated. In general if there are more than one qualifiers, then the preferable action should be to choose one which is more accurate, that is the rule of argumentation. However if it is power dynamics then it is opposite.
Oh and I forgot to add, I don’t believe in Hindutva as far as my understanding of term goes.
This was reason I was not from the start of thread (and the minor fact that the big boob is the most dishonest interlocutor I have ever encountered), I came only because of “right wing”.
Savarkar is called “hate monger” because he dared speak up for Hindus while Gandhi and Congress wanted Hindus to become Muslims slaves, after independence he minded his own business, continued to produce literature on Hindu history and died through fasting, not running around licking China’s arse and screwing someone else’s wife like Chacha Nehru (he infact warned about the coming aggression before 1962), that’s why he is called a “hate monger” by losers who are a nobody, i mean who cares about a total moron like Mani Shankar Iyer unless he goes and does stupid things like pulling down the Savarkar plaque, that’s the only way these idiots can get into the news.
g sabnis,
>>>An atheist is not a “hindu”?
Depends. Varma certainly seems to be making a point in stressing his atheist identity(check his wiki entry) over the normally presumed Hindu one going by his name. If someone doesn’t want to identified as Hindu why should it be thrust on him? I don’t see him qualifying himself as Hindu atheist. It would be inappropriate to presume so, which the other poster seemed to be doing.
>>>So if an atheist who was born hindu talks about hindutva, he is still an outsider?
Outside what? Would it not depend on the extent and measure to which he consider himself an atheist?
>>>Should his views on hindutva not be taken seriously?
Strictly depends on what his views are.
sabnis,
>>>The truth is, there is no central, datum level definition of Hindutva.
Is true about pretty much all religions and identities. Why single out Hindutva?
>>>By the way, I find it hilarious whenever some right-wing bloggers use “atheist” as a slur.
Just fyi, I did not intend it to be a slur. The role of western atheists in exposing the fanaticism of monotheists cannot be overlooked and is in fact extremely laudable.
>>>They would be well advised to read up on the religious beliefs of the man who coined the word “hindutva”. Read up about the intense rivalry in 30s, 40s and 50s between the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha on this very issue.
Too much presumption involved in there. Best left ignored.
Gaurav (Sabnis) - thx for the explanation. The different perceptions of Hindutva that you are pointing are extremely interesting. But given that there are so many, why do we always hear just the use of the word, “Hindutva”, as if it is fully understood by everyone? (ie am not arguing with the use of the word, but assumption that it is understood). Going by your message, it is not understood the same way by everyone. No prob with that, in fact it is good.
It is nice to see a similar view to Savarkar as mine. I am a great admirer of the early Savarkar … also I think his defiance of the British from the Andamans was both shrewd and courageous, rare combination. But by the end of his life his evident bitterness have overpowerd him. Only little to admire by then. His bitterness is rpted here, with comments like “I mean what other option he had”, and “died through fasting, not running around licking China’s arse and screwing someone else’s wife.”
Comments like that make me question Hindutva. Is it requirement that its followers are so bitter, maybe even venomous?
About this - “I have a feeling that this Shuvrowhathisname is your old ‘friend’”. This is also tipical of the Hindutva followers I am seeing on the blogosphere. Whenever they see some other view, they presume it is somebody faking as somebody else. LAst time, it happened with one blogger called “Ritwik”. I dont know who “old friend” this guy is talking about. But for me, I am finally writing as myself.
And this - “the minor fact that the big boob is the most dishonest interlocutor I have ever encountered”. Will the other Gaurav tell who he is talking about? And explain with some examples? Let us be clear if we want to discuss?
ROTFL
check my latest post for my understanding of hindutva
Shuvro Aikath,
(What does ‘Aikath’ stand for by the way? “As Is Known Aikath To Himself?”)
Whatever Hindutva is, the interesting fact is that those who are obsessed with it seem not to be those who advocate it. Take this fellow “Palahalli”. He is dying to know:
“What is Hindutva? Why should it appeal to me?”
The question itself reveals the fact that he is not a fan of Hindutva. Nor is it the case that anybody is evangelizing Hindutva to the dude. But he is always perspiring in desperation to “sincerely” and “seriously” discuss Hindutva!
What gives? Do you have any explanation?
Here is mine. Look around, and you will notice that those obsessed with Hindutva are not the supposed followers of Hindutva but its alleged opponents. They use “Hindutva” as euphemism for “Hinduism” because directly attacking Hinduism gives their game away. And they keep a stockpile of time-tested yet worn-out excuses ready just in case their hate is called into question: you have heard them shout from rooftops that they are only attacking bad Hindutva, not good Hinduism, haven’t you? The condescending buffoons.
Look around again, on the blogosphere for example, and you’ll notice that again it is these people who are always dying to bring “Hindutva” into every discussion, not their debaters.
Their monomaniacal fixation with ‘Hinudtva’ indicates to me extreme bitterness. Question is: where does this bitterness spring from?
Look around again, and this time you’ll notice that a major chunk of this Hindu(’tva’)-baiting brigade is comprised of commies. Does that give us a clue? Does it tell us why the Arundhati Roys and the D’Souzas are always venting venom?
I bet it does. According to “The Black Book of Communism”, communism murdered 80 million people worldwide. An ideology as genocidal as that cannot but fill its adherents with hate, with bitterness. Even as the civilized world has distanced itself from the horror called communism — many intellectuals contend that Marxism and fascism are two sides of the same coin — we have in our midst venomous people and legions of their media sidekicks shamelessly flaunting their association with Communism. Indeed, Rajiv Malhotra has insightfully commented that ‘Hindutva’ is the Indian Left’s “the other”, a pet hate that the commies use for their self-definition.
(http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20040115&fname=rajiv2&sid=1&pn=1)
Hence whenever I see yet another commie bigot try in desepration to ask the question: “what is Hindutva? Why should it appeal to me?” I think we should pause and settle a bigger question first:
Why does the commie ideology appeal to these people? Is it their congenital disposition to be attracted by the hate that communism spreads? How can these seemingly educated people be not human enough to know the destruction that communism caused?
THAT is the question we should be debating, Game, As Is Known Aikath To Himself?
> What does ‘Aikath’ stand for by the
> way? “As Is Known Aikath To Himself?”)
Yeah rite: when there’s nothing to offer (note still no attempt to answer the original question of debate), poke fun at the guy’s name! lol!
Or alternately, call them “commie” and “buffoons”. Rotfl, definately!
OK dude, try again. Please answer the question, allrite? Who cares who asks them, just try to answer. not sidetrack.
Shadows:
“Please dont respond to Palahalli, he is just looking to create trouble, he seems to have too much time on his hands..”
- This is one “H-Vadi” who does not mind unionizing
Again,
“Its ok to discuss, but not with such dishonest argumentators.”
Please allow me a minute to dissect this ugly charge:
1. Palahalli #70 (Aavarana)- “Trivia - Did you know that “Hindu” students also attend Mardrassas? That they employ “Hindu” teachers too?”
2. Shadows #71 - “Since when did the exception become the norm ??”
3. Palahalli #107 - ““Again, the fact that this is an exception means - there is a norm. And you pretty well know what it is, dont you?”
- And what may be the norm? That ALL Madrasas breed terrorists? You seem to not want an inconvenient truth. Let us try to test your postulation now. Please share with us what kind of Indian Muslim numbers are contributed to the Jehadi movement? And what are the numbers of Muslims churned out by Indian Madrasas?”
4. Shadows #108 - “No, the norm is that Hindus dont attend madrassas.. Will you please stop distorting the issue ? First of all, understand the posts and then respond.
Maybe there is a job ready for you here.”
5. Palahalli #110 - “* Thanks for the job offer…but all you could have said was…”No Palahalli, the norm is “Hindus” don’t attend Madrasas….etc etc.”
Thank but no thanks Shadows…I know that already.”
*******
Apart from the above, I provided a link to information about “Hindu” students in Madrasas in West Bengal. With all of this said, how does Shri Shadows claim that I distorted his statement? In fact in the last statement, I have acknowledged his fact that “all “Hindus”" do not study in these institutions.
Why is Shri.Shadows so keen on a common Communist pastime? Character Assasination.
For the rest, I will post my responses later today.
Regards,
Is this another lie that will not be backed up?
Let’s not get emotional, which other lie wasn’t backed up? Also, when several comments are not “moderated”, I consider that as blocked. You can’t expect me to keep trying the eletric fence. Let’s stipulate that this one is a “lie”. What else?
I guess I will take a chance and try the electric fence again.
Just posted it on DCubed and sure enough it got saved. It appears that comment moderation has been removed. Posting it here for easy reference:
I think “Shuvro Aikath” got very hurt cuz I stated some truths about Nehru that he finds unpalatable and therefore thinks I am bitter, history will vindicate Savarkar, in many cases it already did, many of his predictions came true, India has now abandoned the fabian socialism of Nehru and his cronies, anyway why would Savarkar be bitter, if he wanted he could have switched sides and joined the Congress and advocated air bombing of Hindus so that later on he could be praised as the godfather of secularism, he never did any of that since he truly believed in what he said.
Ot: “Take this fellow “Palahalli”. He is dying to know:
“What is Hindutva? Why should it appeal to me?”……
….The question itself reveals the fact that he is not a fan of Hindutva. Nor is it the case that anybody is evangelizing Hindutva to the dude. But he is always perspiring in desperation to “sincerely” and “seriously” discuss Hindutva!”
- I thought a good night’s sleep would help you think better
But, I now feel you simply want to push this drug.
I WILL REMIND YOU ONCE MORE - THESE ARE NOT MY QUESTIONS. SO STOP BUILDING A MYTHOLOGY AROUND THEM.
******
Now…
I found Sabnis very correct and reflective.
In my opinion, there are two distinguishing characteristics of Hindutva.
a. The stand one takes on history. Especially Islam’s encounters with the people/religions of Hindusthan.
It need not even be purely “nationalist”, since British rule has been traditionally, given mild treatment. That could also be because many “Hindu” greats..saw the British as an “essential” evil who fought off the evil Muslims. Present day harking to the US against Pakistan reminds me of that.
b. Anti-Minority seems to be unduly harsh…maybe it is anti-minorityism. However, when one reads rabid anti-Muslim/Christian sentiment being expressed as some sort of “our” response to Terrorism, then I have second thoughts about benignness. Looking back…it reminds me of the days I peddled Sadhvi Rithambara’s cassettes. I also read a report thenarounds…of Advani asking his driver to switch off her speech on the player
The rest of similar basis are mostly policy decisions that Sabnis again, rightly said, the BJP had ignored while in power.
Even here, I do not believe that there is any consencus on the Uniform Civil Code. This Code has not been discussed and there are plenty of the traditional H-Vadis who would not find one wholesome. There is also a H-Vadi view that the UCC may not be a good idea after all. Any kind of “uniformity” being at incongruence with the “Hindu” genius.
On Art.370 and “autonomy”, I wonder if the subject is not dead (?). One remembers the Jana Sangh with a “Unitary” agenda. One remembers Golwalkar urging against “linguistic” states and forming zones instead. With a strong center. Then we find the BJP pushing for “more” states for administrative reasons. It’s taking to “alliance” government formation, which by implication, ensures a weak…or pliable “center”. So, should there be some kind of “autonomy” for “all” our states? Is that the way forward? That’s another debate.
These are some of my thoughts at random…be back with more responses soon. Cannot keep my friends Vikas and Mayura waiting long
Hey As Is Known Aikath To Himself,
“OK dude, try again. Please answer the question, allrite? Who cares who asks them, just try to answer. not sidetrack.”
I am asking the question, and you’re the one desperate to sidetrack. I logically demonstrated that the mother of all questions is:
“Why does the commie ideology appeal to these people? Is it their congenital disposition to be attracted by the hate that communism spreads? How can these seemingly educated people be not human enough to know the destruction that communism caused?”
Perhaps you don’t want to go down that route. Much commiserate with you. Not an easy task to justify an ideology that proved to be 20th century’s biggest killer. I suggest that you read the following book, and understand what inspires the hate in the likes of Arundhati Roy:
http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Janus-Marxism-Fascism-Twentieth/dp/0300106025/ref=sr_1_2/102-9636340-6553755?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183872422&sr=1-2
“Gregor is the first to use Marxist theory systematically to bend the political spectrum from a linear to a circular form. That is, fascism and communism meld into each other. Fascism had its origins in communism, and communism exhibited facets of fascism from its inception.”
A general question - Speaking of appeal..why is it that Hindutva lacks friends amongst folk who are otherwise seen as foes of Islam or even Islamic extremism?
After all, in the prevailing atmosphere of fear and suspicion worldwide, it should not be difficult to gather sympathetic ears for a cause that hopes to ameliorate the condition of some of Islam’s victims (?)
I think it is fair to ask the question. Why are H-Vadi organizations left alone in this “War on Terror”?
Is there an explanation?
Thus spake “palahalli”:
“why is it that Hindutva lacks friends amongst folk who are otherwise seen as foes of Islam or even Islamic extremism?”
WHO are these “foes” of Islamic extremism that “Palahalli” and his “dad” seem to be imagining to be solidly behind them?
These guys are really funny. They seem to have visions of themselves as whole armies drawing the support of even more numbers of armies.
Nevertheless, “Palahalli’s” question raises another interesting question: why do communists, Islamic fundamentalists and evngelical groups tend to band together in attacking Hinduism, even when otherwise they are cutting each other’s throats elsewhere in the world?
Ot: It is nevertheless true. If you think differently, instead of fighting at the windmills…maybe you can answer the query.
> I think “Shuvro Aikath” got very hurt cuz I stated some truths about Nehru that he finds unpalatable and therefore thinks I am bitter
No, “Shuvro Aikath” just thinks you are bitter, period.
Very inteesting how nobody on this page has yet tried to answer the question originally posed. Nearly 60 comments, but nobody. Instead, every evasion possible - nehru, commies, mother of all questions.
As Is Known Aikath To Himself and his alter ego make an appearance, but dodge the question:
“Why does the commie ideology appeal to these people? Is it their congenital disposition to be attracted by the hate that communism spreads? How can these seemingly educated people be not human enough to know the destruction that communism caused?”
Why? Is silence the answer?
Let us ask some supplementary questions. To begin with: why are commies treated with such contempt the world over today?
One comment on Hindutva by DD on his blog and look at all the sensible guys running around in circles here. Sandeep – I second Gaurav that you should stop linking to DD’s comments. Even sensible commentators are running circles here.
Ot
Whatever Hindutva is, the interesting fact is that those who are obsessed with it seem not to be those who advocate it.
why do communists, Islamic fundamentalists and evngelical groups tend to band together in attacking Hinduism, even when otherwise they are cutting each other’s throats elsewhere in the world?
You have hit the nail on the head. Let me take his argument further. All the Hindutva cannons were active more than a few years ago. If you look at the events of the past few years these forces are on the retreat. The BJP – most associated with Hindutva is in the doldrums. Even the Ram janmabhoomi does not stir emotions like it used to. There is a secular government at the Centre with a PM bending backwards to please minorities and turning cartwheels to appease Pakistan. After all the PM himself goes on record that muslims should have the first claim on resources and has even appointed the Sachar committee that has recommended reservations for them.
Then what is the secularist/leftist’s and particularly DD’s problem? After all Hindutva that he considered most dangerous and to quote him he has claimed that this half-baked Hindutva would destroy India before Pakistan could. Now that the Hindutva forces are in retreat, why is he flogging a dead horse? Is the nation not safe now?
Unless one looks at some events that have been making news for the past few years under this same secular government:
Bomb blasts occurring at regular intervals all over the country – so many I do not even bother to list them down.
Riots in Lucknow and mass demonstrations and riots during George Bush’s visit to India by a particular community
Riots in Bangalore when Saddam Hussein is hanged.
The recent findings that the Glasgow bombers were well to do Indian doctors/Engineers and not riot affected victims from Bombay 93 or Gujarat 2002.
Do any of the above events have any remote link to Hindutva? Ok –as per DD’s father the bomb blasts of July 06 were because of the Bombay riots of 93 and the fact that the perpetrators – all Hindutvavadi’s have not been punished. But what about the other events listed. George Bush, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown do not have any link to Hindutva.
So there has been total silence from DDS and his buddies on any of the above events. So how do you deflect attention from all of the above? Start flogging dead horses like the above.
Now any journalist with some sense of integrity would be asking the muslim moderates as what has gone wrong with muslims in India? Why are more and more of them going the way of Al Qaeda. Now the PM can no longer boast ‘ There are no Indian Al Qaeda members. Would they not ask if demonstrations against events in Iraq and Geoge Bush truly show any willingness to integrate into the national mainstream? Should they not ask how to prevent these murderous ideologies from affecting the muslim community. But then where was DD, his secular essay contest winners ever associated with integrity?
Looking back…it reminds me of the days I peddled Sadhvi Rithambara’s cassettes. I also read a report thenarounds…of Advani asking his driver to switch off her speech on the player
======================
Palahalli,
Sadhvi Rithambara is not an excuse/stick/reason why minorities should have more benefits at our expense, in the name of secularism….
Please, talk sense, and stop giving examples like Hindus attending madrassas and Advani asking his driver to stop playing her cassettes.
>>> A general question - Speaking of appeal..why is it that Hindutva lacks friends amongst folk who are otherwise seen as foes of Islam or even Islamic extremism?
Palahalli,
Good question, for once. Instead of trying to prove that Muslims are friends of Hindus because a few Hindu kids attend madrassas.
First of all, I assume you mean BJP and friends here. I am no BJP supporter but still I believe that Hindus are being treated unfairly in India. There are lot of reasons why. To know more, read this very good blog archives.
Now, I will answer why “BJP and its parivar” do not have many friends.
Yes, BJP do not have many friends. This is because of the way the rightwing are projecting ourselves. They are not media friendly. The media too is to blame partly, they have demonized Hinduism. Of course, there are “eminents” like Amartya Sen, romila Thapar, etc, who have distorted history.
BJP and friends are more into non-issues like vibrating condoms and V-day protests. That gives out a very bad image, much like the muslims who oppose condoms and V-day and other such “Western influence”.
Their choice of friends isnt good either. I suppose they lose a lot of support because of lunatics like Shiv Sena (who once rioted because many shops did not carry signboards in marathi).
Even the British are racist and much more anti-Muslim but they dont go around rioting. Nor do they go around pillaging gift shops that sell V-day cards if they dont like V-day.
Our issues, our problems are genuine, we are at risk, we are under attack. But the way we are trying to fight those problems is not correct.
>>> Yes, BJP do not have many friends.
Ooops some grammatical bloopers… *does not* instead of “do not”.
I suggest Dilip put up the same question, and substitute Hindutva for Jehad. Then lets watch the replies come in
@shadows
>>I suggest Dilip put up the same question, and substitute Hindutva for Jehad. Then lets watch the replies come in
+1. Was going to post the same thing.
Shadows:“Its ok to discuss, but not with such dishonest argumentators.”
- Maybe you can clarify this charge before we proceed with our debate.
If I were to make an accusation like this against somebody who uses his real name on boards, I would be very careful and would want to back it up with solid evidence.
Now, I have responded to your charge and I see not clarification from you. Do you still stick by it or don’t you? If you don’t stand by it anymore, then I think an apology is in order. If you do, then please address my response in #50.
Regards,
Palahalli,
Distorting my statements deliberately does constitute dishonesty…
If you did not do it deliberately, then I say that I quoted what I was responding to. I could not have made it any plainer.
“If you did not do it deliberately, then I say that I quoted what I was responding to. I could not have made it any plainer.”
- This does not wash. You imputed motives after I had clarified my position. Not before.
Anyway, I did not expect any other response…very unfortunate.