Introduction
Sudha Ramachandran, an independent researcher makes grave omissions in an article focussed on Buddhism’s revival vis a vis India and China.
Every nation fighting for supremacy in the world seeks to capture influence in as many spheres as its heritage affords it. Education is political might in disguise, a fact proven by China’s (earlier, the USSR’s) systemmatic indoctrination of Indian academia, media and establishment.
Sudha Ramachandran reports that China now wants to claim substantial legacies of Buddhism for itself in the ambitious project to revive the Nalanda University.
I see several problems with this project.
Amartya Sen and Nalanda
It is headed by Amartya Sen, known for his communist slant. His Argumentative Indian wholly ignores the rich tradition of debate that existed in Hindu philosophical schools of thought and instead, concentrates on the Buddhist tradition of argumentation. The latter pales in comparison in terms of breadth, scope, modes, style, and techniques of debate. Sen’s essays and speeches condemning Indian nuclear tests, and his support of the Chinese Cultural Revolution also blunt his credentials in heading a project of this magnitude.
The Nalanda university did not offer only Buddhist subjects. It taught all Darshanas (Hindu systems of Philosophy), phoentics, grammar, nyaya/rhetoric, and fine arts apart from the list that Sudha Ramachandran mentions. Kumarila Bhatta is a good example to illustrate how Nalanda worked. A powerful exponent of Vedanta, he enrolled at Nalanda, when he was about 80 years old, to learn Buddhism inside out so he could defeat Buddhists in argument and establish the supremacy of Vedanta. His life illustrates the spirit of the University where learning was imparted regardless of age or the student’s previous educational/philosophical background.
If the sole aim of this revival project is boosting India’s esteem or scoring any sort of political goal, it is the antithesis of everything that Nalanda stood originally for. The various dynasties that patronized Nalanda had encouragement and promotion of learning as their goal. They selected the best men to accomplish that. The revival project must proceed in the same spirit. If Nalanda needs to reclaim its rightful status as the world’s foremost center of learning, it should offer every conceivable branch of learning taught by the most eminent people in their fields. A Nobel Laureate in today’s world does not exactly define eminence if that is the reason Sen has been selected–apart from being a person born in India. At the least, an academic should be shorn of political leanings. Sen does not qualify on this count either.
Ignorance of History
Sudha Ramachandran, in her reportage makes an appalling assertion:
An ancient seat of learning, Nalanda University was primarily a center of Buddhist studies, but it also imparted training in fine arts, astronomy, politics and languages. The university died a slow death around the 12th century AD.
The Nalanda University didn’t die a slow death: it was systematically vandalized by Bakhtiyar Khilji in 1193 (97?), a Turkish invader. Some historical accounts also state that the Nalanda University burnt over a period of six months, and that its destruction marks one of the definitive milestones in medieval Indian history. In a way, Nalanda’s destruction also signifies Buddhism’s destruction in India, a fact that many historians wrongly attribute to Shankaracharya. Rahul Sankrityayana, the arch-Communist and a firebrand Buddhist scholar offers an insider’s testimony to Buddhism’s decline in the land of its birth. He attributes it to the monastic order that prohibited Buddhists to form armies to defend themselves. Historians and writers who hail Islam’s contribution to India’s “composite culture” are mute when Nalanda’s ugly tale is mentioned, and often cloak it in vague language like Sudha Ramachandran has done. Buddhism’s wholesale destruction in India is also reason why Sudha Ramachandran incorrectly asserts that:
…China has more Buddhists than India does today. In fact, with 100 million, it is home to the largest number of Buddhists in the world.
Indeed, her mention that the “tussle for ownership of Buddhism” between India and China is also suspect.
A cursory reading of Buddha’s life and teachings reveals that Buddhism is simply Vedanta in a different garb and language (see my posts on Buddha and Vedanta). Contrary to what scholars like Amartya Sen and others claim, Buddhism was not a “revolt” against the caste system. The Buddha never sought to eradicate the caste system as a functioning social order. He merely opposed the priestly Brahmins who had grown degenerate because they had deviated from the spiritual foundation of rituals. This is significantly different from the Brahmins who acted as the spiritual guides of Indian society in his time. Gautama Buddha’s “revolt” was against evil men of a specific caste rather than the caste system as a whole. This makes sense logically because the Buddha wouldn’t borrow Vedic concepts, ideas and philosophy if he opposed the Brahmins who upheld, preached and practised them.
At a very mundane level, Gautama Buddha’s place is secure in India. Mere numbers of Buddhists cannot negate the fact that Buddhism has its roots firmly in India.
Conclusion
Any sincere attempt to revive Nalanda should begin by examining its history. Unfortunately, the UPA government that has commissioned the project has demonstrated poor judgement and dubious intellectual credibility by appointing Amartya Sen. Shashi Tharoor sums it up well:
A great university is the finest advertisement for the society that sustains it. If we recreate Nalanda, it must be as a university worthy of the name — and we must be a society worthy of a 21st-century Nalanda.
To do this, we need to alter the mindset, which views this project as a mere political tussle between two nations over trivial questions such as who owns universal souls like the Buddha.
Crossposted on Desicritics and INI Signal.
Tags: Commentary, History, Indian Philosophy, Indian Politics, International Politics, Islam Watch, Media Watch, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, Society & Culture, War on Communism, Weblogs
I think Islam’s signal contribution to humanity has been vandalizing and cannabilising of rich and diverse cultures and snuffing them out. Its attack on knowledge was most insidious. Destroying the Nalanda University was one extreme example of it.
For those who are not aware of it, Muslims were also responsible for gutting the great Library at Alexandria which contained so many books that it burnt for a week. The reason given for destroying the Library was, if it contains knowledge outside Koran, that knowledge is false, and if it contains things that are already present in the Koran then it is useless. End of argument.
Amartya Sen is a confirmed commie, and a socialist who was a proponent of the disastrous economic policies of Indira Gandhi.
Amarty Sen’s appointment is not surprising. Left has always managed to install its admirers in key positions in the Educational sector. Now they have one more educational institution to churn out intellectuals with leftist leanings.
Its always a matter of great surprise to me, how left came to dominate print and visual media all over the world. Prestigious international publications like Guardian, Time, NYT etc are all leftist with Islamist sympathies. And between them they have made right, conservative viewpoints look like an abomination.
While I am a libertarian, who advocates minimal government interference in our day to day lives, in the battle between the left and the right, i identify myself with right.
The below site gives a very good history of communism
http://markhumphrys.com/modern.left.html
Statistics say that left has killed 100 million people in the past century, 10 times as many as the Nazis. One feels amused when our Indian Leftists who themselves are admirers of Stalin, Mao and Lenin, call the BJP fascist.
In terms of no of casualties leftists come second only to the religion of peace, while the much reviled Nazis manage a distant third spot.
>>>> Statistics say that left has killed 100 million people in the past century, 10 times as many as the Nazis.
Shailendra,
That would be 11 times. Nazis were socialists, not right-wing.
)
ROFL….
1. Nazi party meant socialist German workers party. (both socialist and workers in the name!! double commie
2. Hitler said that he is deeply influenced by Marx. Only after he attacked Russia that he became right-wing
Thats an interesting link you thought of, Shadows! Anyone for comrade Hitler :))
Came to your site through diggindianews.com… you have written a very well informative article. Thanks.
Sandeep,
I think the point about Caste is whether the Buddha discriminated on its basis?
Did he think in terms of birth based “high” and “low”?
Is there any mention of him speaking in favor of or defending this institution?
There is mention of the Buddha being adviced against taking into his Sangha…folk of “low” birth and the Buddha not listening to such advise. Is there a mention to the contrary?
I can understand that the Buddha’s Sangha was indifferent to Caste…but was he a proponent of it’s “goodness”?
On Islam’s devastating effect on Buddhism, it is well documented by many..including Ambedkar. That an “arch-communist” can also recognize and appreciate this fact, will no doubt leave many of my friends here gasping for ideological breadth
It is understood that Caste in his (The Buddha) day was far from what it became later on. However, the questions remain…or answers not clear to me.
Thank you for introducing me to Rahul Sankrityayana. I am now most eager to know more about him.
Palahalli,
>>I think the point about Caste is whether the Buddha discriminated on its basis?
That is not the point. Read those lines carefully: while I’m sure the Buddha like other reformers wanted to get of the evils that had set in the caste system, he hasn’t anywhere said that the caste system as a functioning social order is evil.
>>Thank you for introducing me to Rahul Sankrityayana. I am now most eager to know more about him.
My pleasure.
“..he hasn’t anywhere said that the caste system as a functioning social order is evil.”
* I hope I am not belaboring the point. But my thinking is on the same lines. The Buddha does not seem to uphold Caste/Varna either. On the other hand…he readily takes such measures that seem to go against the way it was practiced. * I am deducing this only because he met with opposition from some of his own diciples.*
He does speak of who a “true” Brahman is. This is in line *still largely unbought* with today’s reformist thinking. “Anybody worthy, is a Brahman”.
Where can I get more information on Rahul? Please guide me.
Dudes, caste system as it exists today is not more than 500 years old. It was a very loose system of social groupism that became very severe to protect the society from conversion to Islam when the Muslim invaders arrived.
There is a very good article written by British sociologists that caste itself was given the present shape by British mischief through their census. See http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/castesystem.htm
You are guys are arguing as if caste existed during the time of Buddha too!! Caste is just a word derived from the Portuguese word “Casta.”
When the British arrived in India, they looked for a system of social classification like they had classes in Britain. Lo and behold! They pointed out to some social groupings, called them caste and arranged them in a neat heirarchy and proclaimed them a system similar to class system existing in Europe!
There is a dispute among sociologists if caste system is heirarchical, or it is only the Brits who pretended it is hierarchical and the Indians promptly changed their behaviour to suit the interpretation of White rulers.
Castes were originally social groupings which were equal to each other, like tribes. It is the Brit who turned them heirarchical and arbitrarily assigned positions to castes from top to bottom. Read Arun Shourie’s “Falling Over Backward” to see how the caste system as it exists today is a creation of the British census commissioners.
Caste hierarchy is the creation of the British? I know that the census system rigidified multiple identities and also helped exacerbate “power blocs” against each other…but it seems to have been too easy for foreigners to brainwash an entire people into such drastic change.
This is my initial thought. Will respond further post reading the link.
>> That an “arch-communist” can also recognize and appreciate this fact
Ambedkar wasnt a communist. Or were you referring to yourself ??
>>>> I think the point about Caste is whether the Buddha discriminated on its basis? Did he think in terms of birth based “high” and “low”?
Maybe he did, maybe he did not.
Well, while caste took it too far, the difference of high and low birth remain.. whether you and I like it or not. Definitely we dont like it, we would want everyone to be happy and plentiful. But then, we are more *likely* (generally speaking) to find a slumdweller much more revolting (in terms of behaviour, speech, sense, education, etc) than someone born in a good locality. Its not just Hinduism or India, its everywhere, all over the world. Say what someone from Manhattan would think about a person from a slum in Brooklyn.
Caste system , to some extent , has been the bane of Hinduism. Let me add that this is just one bad thing about Hinduism, and even that is ambiguous because caste was determined by actions, not birth, originally.
Just one fault, and we are accused of so many other assorted things. Next I wont be surprised if its mentioned that Kafeel and his brother were disgruntled with India , Gujarat and Modi
. Also, that they were peaceful followers of the religion of peace 
and were driven by communal Hindus to commit such acts. In glasgow 
Sanjay choudhry,
Good point. Never knew that .. Just so surprising to us brainwashed to this extent !!!
Palahalli,
its possible.. British could have done it easily. India was not a monolithic country with TV and newspapers then. Even within a state, there were several kingdoms.
>>Just so surprising to us brainwashed to this extent !!!
Correction -
Just so surprising to find us brainwashed to this extent !!!
I would go a step further and say Caste Hierarchy is a creation of the policy of reservations. Let me try to explain.
When the first caste based census took place in British India, a lot of people reported themselves as upper caste rajputs and Kshatriyas. To be high caste was considered to be a matter of pride then. These same castes are now clamouring for OBC and scheduled caste status because that brings more tangible benefits in terms of job reservations and education opportunities.
Come to think of it, there are many new occupations that have come up in the past 5000 years, and it is not possible to classify everyone on the basis of the four original castes. These fuzzy areas of occupation can be classified in several ways. All of them end up asking for OBC or SC/ST status. So in a way successive governments have inverted the traditional caste structure and made the OBCs the new Brahmins. In an interesting aside, most incidents of atrocities on Dalits that are reported these days, are perpetrated not by the Brahmins or the upper castes, but by the OBCs. For that reason alone, a political alignment of Dalits and OBCs cannot happen. Mayawati recognised this fact and she preferred to align with the Brahmins in UP.
I guess it would too much to expect caste based reservations (or indeed reservations in general) to go away in a hurry. As long as there are numerically influential blocs of population, which are or which can portray themselves as a vote bank, they will continue to receive the benefit of reservations. Witness the shenanigans of old man Karunanidhi and Rajshekhar Reddy in providing reservations for Muslims. The fact that no one but the Muslims themselves are to be blamed for their educational and social backwardness, does not cut any ice with our vote hungry politicians.
sorry for OT
Historian Barton says Hindu prayer before Senate raises concerns
see the comments on the article
Sandeep
I found Sudha Ramachandran’s article in the Asia Times to be shallow.
She quotes an official of the Indian Ministry of External Affairs to state that “China has sought to keep India out of regional arrangements in Southeast Asia by portraying India as an outsider. By underlining the multi-millennia-old bond of Buddhism that it shares with these regions, India is quietly clarifying that it is not a gatecrasher”.
India is not a gate crasher. Indic civilization - both Hindu and Buddhist profoundly influenced Cambodia and Indonesia which were the two greatest empires in classical/early medieval South East Asia. The Khmer and the Javanese influenced the remainder of South East Asia which explains the Indic inheritance in Malaya and Thailand.
Sudha Ramachandran then mentions that “Indian officials admit that in the past India neglected highlighting adequately its central role in the Buddhist world and its Buddhist legacy. She quotes the unnamed Ministry official to say “it [India]surrendered the mantle of being the custodian of Buddhist heritage and its leadership role in the Buddhist world, which was quickly appropriated by countries like Japan and China”.
Let me correct her. India can never be the leader in the Buddhist world! Only 0.77% of India’s population is Buddhist!! Further, China can not claim leadership of the Buddhist world either.
Sudha mentions that China had 100 million Buddhists. The correct number, according to a survey by a Chinese University earlier this year, is perhaps closer to 200 million. This is still just 16% of the Chinese population. In other words, 84% of the Chinese population do not define themselves as practicing Buddhist!
Let us not forget that China is heir to its ancient Confucian inheritance and rich Taoist traditions. China imported Buddhism from India while Confucianism and Taoism are indigenous to that land. There are limits to China taking the leadership of the Buddhist world!
Japanese civilization is likewise both Shinto and Buddhist. Most Japanese today do not practice either.
In short, Sudha Ramachandran’s analysis is flippant and superficial much like the unnamed official at the Ministry of External Affairs that she repeatedly quoted. If Indian diplomats and self-proclaimed researchers are not aware of their own and neighboring country traditions, India is then indeed lost in civilizational ambiguity that no revival of Nalanda can rectify.
I also share your views that Amartya Sen is perhaps ill-equipped to lead the revival of Nalanda. One needs an Indologist, not a bigoted secular-left ideologue!
Best regards
“Historian Barton says Hindu prayer before Senate raises concerns
see the comments on the article”
The foundations of America lie in Christian fundamentalism. All the conversions that are being carried in India are being co-ordinated and financed by American churches, especially in south India. Mark my words — South India has been marked by CIA and Vatican as the first chritian country to arise in SE Asia.
This will happen in about 25 years, if conversions to christianity are not stopped. South India is going to secede and declare itself as a “Christian coastal superpower”. The commie editors (see latest Outlook) are helping in creating awareness in south Indians about this “we are different from north Indians and should not carry the burden of their backwardness.” THe latest Outlook has even a column that starts with a talk of secession from India.
I saw Historian Barton’s objections and the subsequent comments by Christian Americans on that page. Earlier when I had read and seen Richard Dawkins The God Delusion, where he had devoted a section to American Bible thumpers, I had thought these fools were exceptions. Going by the article and the accompanying comments it would seem they are the norm.
There was more than one comment about Christian God being jealous :D. There were many more hate spewing comments about Hinduism and paganism, about multiple Gods and strange Gods (whatever that means), and there was a general ignorance about Indian history and American history. Some ignoramuses asked rhetorical questions about the contribution to humanity of Hindus. Among other things I assume they would have heard of Yoga and decimal system. Others pointed out that USA was a Christian nation. They neglected that till 500 years ago it was inhabited by Red Indians, who were exterminated by White Christians. What else can one expect from the followers of a “jealous God” if not ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Another idiot asked since India does not allow Christian prayers why should Americans allow Hindu prayers. I am afraid that even in India, at least under the current dispensation, Hindu prayers would be more frowned upon than Christian or Islamic ones.
Shailendra
Ignore that website. It is run by a fundamentalist christian and he is filtering comments. I sent my comment asking about “contributions of Christianity to the world” like genocide of Red Indians and aboriginies, Slavery of Blacks, Salem Witchhunt, Inquisition and colonialism, and they were not published.
The moderator is filtering comments, and that is why it looks like America is infested by Christian bigots.
For another perspective, see http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
That explains things sanajy. Though I believe, fundamental Christianity is less of a threat to the world than fundamental Islam. The best scenario would be if they eradicate each other. The world would become a much more peaceful place.
Shailendra Mathur:
Threat of fundamental Christianity is the same,if not more, than that of islamists, IMHO. Indian NorthEast’s social engineering is a proof of this fact. Islamists, at least, say it on our face.
In India, with huge amount of resources (capital, manpower, media, NGO’s etc), christian fundamentalists are the slimiest. Anyone studying and exposing their ‘movement’ is branded a Hindutva fundamentalist, no questions asked. Couple this with hate-mongerers like dead Falwell, Pat Robertson are seen as ‘holy men’ in India. Robertson’s terms Hinduism as demonic on his 700 club and here in India, we have his CBN (christian broadcasting network) preach us on TV. (Sony’s SAB channel)
http://www.cbnindia.org
Read comments on this website about what real Americans are saying about the disruption of Hindu prayers in the Senate:
http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jul/12/christian_right_activists_disrupt_hindu_chaplain_in_the_senate
I agree with you Vikas. Hindus still do not know what fundamentalist christians are capable of. They have not got a taste of Inquisition, like Europeans did (and thus have got turned off from chrisianity).
Once Hindus get a taste of christian fundamentalism, they will come their senses.
sanajy choudhry:
We do not have to go that far back to the inquisition era. In today’s age, what Shailendra was saying about the British perfidy reg caste has already taken place through church & missionaries. In Rwanda (Hutu/Tutsi).
http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/CAQ52Rw2t.html
http://www.theotherjournal.com/article.php?id=115
regards,
“I agree with you Vikas. Hindus still do not know what fundamentalist christians are capable of. They have not got a taste of Inquisition, like Europeans did (and thus have got turned off from chrisianity).”
Actually we did, it’s another matter that it’s not discussed much, who can forget the Goan Inquisition and the atrocities christians carried on when they had power.
Re the Master of All Subjects, Amartya Sen, here’s a very interesting review of his “book” “Argumentative…”
http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/5232534b-4f53-4533-8bf9-10cda1cb7b45
It’s a pdf. Download or open in your browser.
“In a way, Nalanda’s destruction also signifies Buddhism’s destruction in India, a fact that many historians wrongly attribute to Shankaracharya”
Thanks for the info, but anyone knows who put this wrong attribution , is it marxist historians ?
we are more *likely* (generally speaking) to find a slumdweller much more revolting (in terms of behaviour, speech, sense, education, etc) than someone born in a good locality.
since in 5 days nobody here (not even owner of this blog), has remarked on, let alone critisised this observation, can i asume that “we” refers to everyone on this page?
thank you then. that tells me evrything i need to know.
Isn’t Christianity supposed to be reformed now? We don’t see bloody attacks on the likes of Prof Richard Dawkins for blasting Christianity in The God Delusion. The no of church attendees in most European countries is declining. Yes we know what Christians are capable of doing at their worst, but I believe Europe at least is no longer the stronghold of fundamental Christianity.
Vatican has embarked on a conversion program in Asia and Africa to bolster their nos. And since they cannot conevrt Muslims (not that they don’t try), the only targets left are the Hindus.
Roman Emperor - I am “fighting” on another front…do you want to take over here? Btw…I agree that that was a sickening observation.
Regards,
Palahalli,
I highlighted *likely* .
And its true, whether we like it or not.. Its easy to say disgusting , sickening etc, but its true.
Try going to a slum at late night hours.. particularly if its a muslim slum. For a good measure, take your family along. Boss, bol-bol karna aasaan hai. Be real and practical.
I am not trying to be politically correct. You may call me names or carry on with your holier-than-thou attitude.. but atleast have the guts to practice what you preach…
You missed the point I was trying to make - this difference of high and low is everywhere, its not just a Hindu evil or something.
>>> I am, if anything, an ardent votary of resonableness and practical thinking.
Palahalli,
Are you trying to change the meaning of practical thinking ??
Shadows: Please do not assume things about others…especially those you may know nothing about.
“You missed the point I was trying to make - this difference of high and low is everywhere, its not just a Hindu evil or something.”
- No, your point is in fact well taken. The difference is that of “acceptance” and excuses that THIS IS reality. Reminds me of…”we are like this only..”. I know that there are many “Hindus” who will not accept such a “reality” as inevitable. Such folk in all religions and otherwise make life livable and bearable for our “slum” dwellers. Muslim or otherwise.
Regards,
1. From the post below, “The Nalanda university did not offer only Buddhist subjects. It taught all Darshanas (Hindu systems of Philosophy), phonetics, grammar, nyaya/rhetoric, and fine arts apart from the list that Sudha Ramachandran mentions. Kumarila Bhatta is a good example to illustrate how Nalanda worked.
A powerful exponent of Vedanta, he enrolled at Nalanda, when he was about 80 years old, to learn Buddhism inside out so he could defeat Buddhists in argument and establish the supremacy of Vedanta. His life illustrates the spirit of the University where learning was imparted regardless of age or the student’s previous educational/philosophical background.”
Nalanda was primarily a Buddhist university, there is little argument for that. Darshanas are NOT ONLY Hindu (Astika = Accepting of Vedic authority) but also Nastika (rejecting of Vedic Authority, the most prominent being Theravada/Mahayana Buddhism AND Jainism. Also, it is a gross mistake to write Kumarila Bhatta as a Vedantin. He is the foremost (alongside Prabhakara Misra) for commenting on Sabara’s Bhasya of Jaimini’s Mimamsa Sutras. He is Purva Mimamsaka not a Vedantin (Uttara Mimamsaka). He worked to establish the supremacy of the VEDA, not the Vedanta as his aim was re-establishment of the Vedic word and practice (Sruti=Sabdapramana). In fact, Sankara’s pramanavicarasastra is built primarily off of Kumarila’s in terms of the valid pramanas (means to knowledge) that are accepted.
2. You have written in response to Sen as follows: “It is headed by Amartya Sen, known for his communist slant. His Argumentative Indian wholly ignores the rich tradition of debate that existed in Hindu philosophical schools of thought and instead, concentrates on the Buddhist tradition of argumentation. The latter pales in comparison in terms of breadth, scope, modes, style, and techniques of debate.”
I urge you to read thoroughly the works of people such as Satishchandra Vidyabhushana (The History of Indian Logic - written in the late 19th century). In such works, it is shown that it is the triad of the Nyaya (Hindu), Jaina and Mahayana Buddhist schools of epistemology (Pramanavicarasastra) that allowed the later systematically defined schools and ultimately the Vedanta to have a ground to stand on, debate with each other, and formulate/declare their positions on tattvavicara and moksavicara. These three and the later Purva Mimamsa developed the foundations of Tarka before the arrival of systematic Vedanta (Sankara/Ramanuja/Madhva). To boil it down in you words to say one is more or less than the other is to ignore their mutual dependence and to chop off the legs of our anscestral heritage. And if you want to make such a claim, I invite you to support your words and reference the specific debates and points of philosophy that are in question.
I find it ironic that your historical oversights are found immediately preceding the section on Ramachandran’s “Ignorance of History”.
In this day and age, we must revive the philosophical (epistemological, theological, metaphysical, psychological, cosmological and soteriological) aspects of Hinduism and Buddhism that were in a process of deliberation, growth and development during the time that Buddhism was integral and living in Indian soil and culture. It is the only way to cultivate global partners in the survival of Hinduism against the Winner-Takes-All mentality and methodology of Christian-Islamic religions.
>>> The difference is that of “acceptance” and excuses that THIS IS reality.
Do you think slum dwellers are plain simple folk who are hounded by the rich, like in those 70s or 80s Bollywood trash ? Hehh…
living in a dreamworld, are you ?
Wake up and smell the ashes.. dear Palahalli. Slums are illegally grabbed land !!
IT IS Reality.. whether you accept it or you drill your head into the sand…
Do you think I am happy to see people living in slums ? If you think about it, neither are non-slum-dwellers happy about the existence of slums, nor are slum-dwellers happy about living there…
Heck.. why am I arguing — chalo maan liya, you mahaan and devta and holier-than-me.. I am a bigoted right-wing fundamentalist.. come and kill me
I don’t know where to post this. But here is the latest report about human rights abuses against hindus
http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/pdf/HHR2006.pdf
Vijay Kumar
You are playing with words/philosophic concepts while unable to dispute the crux of what Sandeep says. I am unclear what you are really trying to get at except that you show off your familiarity with Indian philosophy!
Try going to a slum at late night hours.. particularly if its a muslim slum. For a good measure, take your family along. Boss, bol-bol karna aasaan hai. Be real and practical.
i have been to slums since from morning hours to late night. for years. muslim, hindu, mixed. in fact this is being typed in the border of a large slum. have not seen anybody revolting ever.
but i think i must adopt your logic. from now on, i think i will find all these people revolting - many friend in college, bus driver/conductor on my regular route, man who cuts my hair, policeman at nearby junction, helpers at general store, people in office of accountant uncle, lady who cooks in our house and neighbours house, young man who gives tutions to my sister in school.
all revolting. shi-shi.
Many of our “socialist” politicians espouse the cause of a vernacular medium education, attack English for being an imperialist language, talk of indigenous culture and ostensibly promote the State Language. And irony of ironies their offspring study in the finest English medium schools and top it off with a sojourn in some renowned US university. So much for talks of Swadeshi.
The opposition to Shadows’ remarks regarding slum dwellers reminds me of the same hypocrisy. I am bracing myself for the brickbats now :D.
Shadows:
“Wake up and smell the ashes.. dear Palahalli. Slums are illegally grabbed land !!”
- That does sound revolting…doesn’t it? Especially since you seem to think slum dwellers are actually hoarding their monies and not paying premium land rates! :)But….where does all this revulsion go when you need….”servants”? “laborers”? “construction workers”? “Garbage cleaners”?….and assorted other professionals!
*****
IT IS Reality.. whether you accept it or you drill your head into the sand…
- Look! There goes the simplifier….!
*****
Do you think I am happy to see people living in slums ? If you think about it, neither are non-slum-dwellers happy about the existence of slums, nor are slum-dwellers happy about living there…
- Ah…now I know! They have all those choice apartments to choose from!…and yet they chose the slum! Unhappily of course!…Wonder why they “grab” land…hmmm
*****
Heck.. why am I arguing — chalo maan liya, you mahaan and devta and holier-than-me.. I am a bigoted right-wing fundamentalist.. come and kill me
- Aww…I wouldn’t think of running you out of “your” business
_________________________________
Mathurji - “So much for talks of Swadeshi.”
- Sirji….did you know that “Swadeshi” with all its implications, is about the only area where “your” H-Vadis and “their” Socialists agree upon?
Maybe you want to discuss this aspect?
@Palahalli: I am sorry if you thought I was a card holding member of BJP or (shudders) RSS! I am not. And no, I am not a socialist, communist or a capitalist either. I find socialism as utopian an ideology as it comes. I am all for free trade, I am all for human freedom and liberty, and I think the best thinker of the past couple of centuries was not Marx, but Krishnamurti, who talked about freeing man from all dogma, and mental conditioning.
Unlike the flawed premise on which communism is founded that all men (and women hopefully) are born equal, I think otherwise. All humans are not created equal, and therein lies the seed of our diversity. And that premise is also the building block of caste, which indicates that labour be divided according to peoples capacities.
Let me end with an appropriate quote :
“Do you want to make it impossible for anyone to oppress his fellow-man? Then make sure that no one shall possess power.” - Bakunin.
>>> I am sorry if you thought I was a card holding member of BJP or (shudders) RSS! I am not. And no, I am not a socialist, communist or a capitalist either. I find socialism as utopian an ideology as it comes.
Shailendra,
If you dare oppose Palahalli, you are automatically a bigoted fundamentalist and a member of BJP/RSS
Though it still escapes me why being a member of BJP/ RSS is so wrong, apart from the fact that for some unspecified reason they are a per hate of the commies?
In the previous post read per hate as pet hate.
Mathurji : “All humans are not created equal, and therein lies the seed of our diversity. And that premise is also the building block of caste, which indicates that labour be divided according to peoples capacities.”
- Apart from the rest of your post, that I generally agree with, I am interested in this premise. Please could you explain further?
This is how I view the situation of Varna/Caste -
Varna - Flexible division of labor. A Shudra can become a Brahmana on evidence of ability. A Brahmana can become a Shudra on evidence of “disability”. A simplistic formulation but you get the point.
Caste - Degeneration of Varna. The higher Varna closed itself to any “outside in” movement. Became a privileged “Caste”. This also forced the lower Castes in time, to follow their “leader” Caste. Early “Sanskritization” of sorts. This further opened the flood gates to the formation of sub Castes based of varied professions. “Caste by Birth”
There is evidence that this degeneration had started at the time of the Buddha itself, because there is testimony that the Brahamanas were “privileged” and also into various professions. Not only that of the priest. So, to my mind, this indicates some amount of transformation of Varna into Caste already underway. Again, a simplistic formulation, but a basic idea.
So, my query obviously would be this, how can the accident of birth be that “which indicates that labour be divided according to peoples capacities.” How can “birth into Caste” decide capacity?
I have a further query - Any such arrangement in society must deal with the problem of CasteSankara…so to speak. How would you maintain “order”? Indeed, how can Caste ignore the “pull” of power…vide Bakunin?
On the BJP/RSS connexion, I am surprised you react so negatively. I hope I did not step on a sore toe
My main point of reference was to “Swadeshi”. I was trying to say that this baby is dear to all, RSS as well as the Communists. So, to ignorantly pin paternity only on the Communists is to forget or ignore the “mother”.
Shadows : Would you please stop scaring my friends away??!
Hi Palahalli, there are people out there who think RSS is the epitome of evil (read the English language newspapers, particularly (anti) Hindu for more details :D). So my emphasis on the undesirability of belonging to the RSS was meant to be taken in a satirical sense. It was my inability to convey the satire, which might have led you to think of sore toes. Apologies!
Of course I agree with your opinion about caste/ varna. There is evidence to show that caste distinctions were not always made on the basis of birth. Many of our venerated Rishis and other great men were from the so called lower castes like Ved Vyasa whose mother was a fisherwoman, Valmiki who was a dacoit and even Lord Krishna (who in modern day India would have been an OBC - eligible for reservations).
When I say all men are not born equal, what I mean to emphasize is, that we have inherently different capabilities depending on our genes, and the kind of environment we develop in. Its the old nature vs nurture debate, but even brothers, who having been born to same parents, have got similar genes, and are brought up in the same environment, can turn out to be as different as chalk and cheese.
My point is, that even if identical opportunities are made available to all humans we will not turn out be replicas of each other. The scriptures talk about the three gunas rajasic, tamasic and sattvic. Those who have predominating sattvic guna will be Brahmins, those who are predominantly Rajasic will be Kshtriya and those of tamsic mentality will be the lower castes.
Again I did not advocate a division of labour on the basis of birth. And that was not the intention of the vedas either. And it was only because caste determined by birth was not an integral part of Hinduism that reformers starting from the Buddha could speak against casteism.
“The scriptures talk about the three gunas rajasic, tamasic and sattvic. Those who have predominating sattvic guna will be Brahmins, those who are predominantly Rajasic will be Kshtriya and those of tamsic mentality will be the lower castes.”
- Mathurji, largely agree with you. However, I would like some insight on the quoted piece.
To my mind, it would be indeed impossible to identify someone with exclusive “rajasic, tamasic and sattvic” gunas. I do not know about genes…but definitely, the environment playes a critical role in moulding one’s nature. And, environments can change.
For instance, I cannot concentrate in an environment that is tense. Where there is much acrimony…I might even become violent. However, I might not have a choice but to live in that environment. That mmeans, I, somehow am balancing my “rajasic” and “sattvic” gunas..in a little more than basic sense. Am I then a Brahmana…or a Kshatriya….or a mixture of both? I might even go through bouts of “tamas”. Am I then a Shudra?
I sense some amount of contradiction.
Another query would be this. Who says I am a Brahmana? Or any of the other Varnas? Who can label me thus? I may understand such a system in a simpler society. But how can we possibly relate to it in a more complex world and not necessarily the modern…without taking recourse to penal sanction?
My take is that such recourse was taken in our society in varied measure.
Btw - Isn’t it true that adopted (destitute) children grow to become healthy citizens? What role does the “gene” play?
Regards,
Isn’t it true that adopted (destitute) children grow to become healthy citizens? What role does the “gene” play?
You have asked regarding Nature and Nurture…
This debate is going on since time long time now. But to clear my point I’ll give you a small example. Suppose we have a cow that has genetic capacity to produce 30 liters of milk a day and another who can produce 3 liters a day. Now if you DO NOT feed adequate amount of grass or feed to high yeilding cow, it would not produce 30 liters of milk a day. On the contrary no matter how much quality feed you give it to low yeilding cow, it wouldn’t produce milk more than 3 liters a day.
So both environment and gene pool is important. If somebody is a born idiot (IQ less than 30) no matter where you raise that baby, results are going to be negative but if somebody is born with high IQ you can raise him anywhere you want to get desired results. You take him to robbers, he’ll be a top class robber, make him a cop and he will outwit all others.
Hope this answers your question. Should you have any query please let me know.
Regards
Palahalli sir, I said and I quote myself “Those who have predominating sattvic guna will be Brahmins, those who are predominantly Rajasic will be Kshtriya and those of tamsic mentality will be the lower castes”. I didnt say someone will be totally Sattvic and someone else will be totally Tamasic. Your predominating characteristic should determine your varna. I dont know what happens if its an equilibrium :D.
I am sure you know about Kabir, who grew up in a Muslim family in an empoverished household, and he was one of the greatest teachers of the middle ages. He was also largely illiterate, hence according to your thesis he grew up in a hostile environment and should have the Tamasic guna predominating. But that was evidenty not the case. In modern times almost all the great teachers of the 20th century have grown up in challenging circumstances. Ramana Maharishi and Nisargadatta Maharaj had very little education. Nisargadatta used to sell bidis in a roadside shop in Mumbai and you will be blown away if you read his book I am That, which is a modern day masterpiece in its exposition of advaita.
So its not entirely true that the environment totally determines ones station in current birth. I would like to ascribe ones station in ones present birth to past life Karmas. You may choose to disagree with me. Robert Svoboda says in Aghora, that the womb you get to be born in, is also determined by your past life karmas. Hence in a way your genes are also determined by what you did in your past lives.
“Who says I am a Brahmana? Or any of the other Varnas? Who can label me thus?” — I don’t think anyone else has the ability to label you thus, apart from an enlightened person. Osho can determine that you are a Brahmin or a Kshatriya, but I obviously cannot.
“If somebody is a born idiot (IQ less than 30) no matter where you raise that baby, results are going to be negative but if somebody is born with high IQ you can raise him anywhere you want to get desired results. You take him to robbers, he’ll be a top class robber, make him a cop and he will outwit all others.”
Sanjeev this may not always be true. If someone with a towering intellect (say of the level of Einstein) is born in a UP village, and has no access to education. She cannot possibly realize her full potential.
On the other hand, its possible for a mediocre person to be born in a middle class family get good education, pursue an MBA and do much better in life than our hypothetical, prospective Einstein who has to be content with a life of drudgery. Nature vs nurture is an old, inconclusive debate, but this debate is important only from the perspective of Western science. In India we conveniently ascribe everything to Karma
Mathurji:
“Those who have predominating sattvic guna will be Brahmins, those who are predominantly Rajasic will be Kshtriya and those of tamsic mentality will be the lower castes”. I didnt say someone will be totally Sattvic and someone else will be totally Tamasic. Your predominating characteristic should determine your varna. I dont know what happens if its an equilibrium”
- I recognized the detail in your statement. But I wanted more clarity. How do we recognize such predominance or otherwise? What are the signs? With “Caste” the equation would be, theoretically at least, pretty clear and straightforward. It would mean that the Dvijas go through certain Samskaras in order to attain a certain “level”. But this becomes untenable when the basis of Caste is attacked. I know folk revert to “Varna”….but how does one maintain “Varna” which is the theory of “predominance”? It’s quite a circle.
The examples you mention are praiseworthy. I will leave other friends to decide on Kabir. He seems to have not only developed in hostile environment, but one that is said to be anathema to anything cultured and civilized.
Moreover, it is also true that human beings “overcome” their “environment”. They struggle against it’s negatives. Manage to keep their heads above water. This is so true of all people across Caste lines.
Normally, I would like Karma to be confined to our present lives. I cannot say nor decide for myself or others…what I or “they” did or did not do in mine or “their” “past” lives in order to determine mine or “their” fate in this life.
“Osho can determine that you are a Brahmin or a Kshatriya, but I obviously cannot.”
- This statement is very important. Who entrusts “Osho” to make that decision? And…when such a one as “Osho” is empowered…who is to ensure that this “power” remains in control? Will “Osho” “designate - Promote or Demote” and move on…or will “Osho”…remain to decide further and on further situations in life? I think you see my problem.
Sanjeevji: I think Mathurji has answered your post.
Regards’
Friends Shailendra, Palahalli and Co.,
In Indian thought no one contingency or factor determines a person’s capabilities or destiny. In fact the very idea of an unchanging identity itself is held suspect. The idea of Samskara, which was copied without attribution by Carl Jung and peddled as “Archetype” is an evolving whole of many influences within and without. The simplistic idea of identity emerging from an interplay of this or that nature vs. nurture; dialectics etc is pop post-reformation thinking. And for swarga’s sake pl don’t quote some text from somewhere and question if events bear it out. Indian texts are not phenomenological abstracts. They are guides to interpreting experience and shd be interrogated rather than be accepted as absolute truth. Pl spare a few minutes to read the review of Amartya Sen I have posted earlier on this thread and clarify your thinking, instead of gabbing about armed with 2nd rate theory and psychobabble. The review isn’t mine; it is by one of our most profound thinkers Balagangadhara.
Sandeepgaaru,
Ri En maadthaithiraa? This thread is going to pieces. Solpe nODi saar!
Kaanganeya,
Will get back once I get little time to breathe. BTW, thanks a ton for that review link.
Cheers!
Kaangeyya : Actually, I agree with you. “Given” identities purportedly based on “nature” and/or “nurture” sucks big time! But in any case, that is what “Caste Consciousness” is.
“They are guides to interpreting experience and shd be interrogated rather than be accepted as absolute truth.” - If this is what IT IS, then what has caused so much blind practice and negative perception?
I am in the process of finding out Balagangadhara’s thougts on the subject.
Good link…good read! Thanks!
Regards’