President-elect Pratibha Patil described her win as the ‘victory of the principles’ which the people of the country uphold.
We get what we deserve. Don’t complain.
Tags: Commentary, Election 2004, Indian PoliticsPresident-elect Pratibha Patil described her win as the ‘victory of the principles’ which the people of the country uphold.
We get what we deserve. Don’t complain.
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On 07.22.07 Alka says:
Who has the time to think about what is happening in India. Oh! I am getting late I have to meet someone at this pub and then we will go to that disc. That’s the topmost priority of losers called young Indians! Just Chill, Sandeep!
On 07.22.07 Prudent Indian says:
I have hit the bottle,big time NOW! may the world live but let me go to HELL. At least that place would be better! hic! hic! hic! hic!
and I called self?
hic!
u know
hic!
self
a Prudent Indian. Sandeep,do u need one? K?
I m off hic!
On 07.22.07 Prudent Indian says:
Friends,
I said this…
http://theprudentindian.wordpress.com/2007/06/14/his-masters-voice/
On 07.23.07 Mayuresh Gaikwad says:
She is absolutely right - Hers is a victory of principles which the people of the country uphold. They are:
1. Nehru-Gandhi clan is supreme - it is the “first family”
2. No-one including the country comes before the Nehru-Gandhi clan. Even a dog living outside the gate of “10 Janpath” is more important than the human being living on 7 Race Course Road or the human being living in Raisina Hills.
And for Pratibha, the definition of India is restricted to Congress supporters…… sorry, Nehru-Gandhi supporters. All others in the country are proles and their opinions are bigoted and immoral.
Another irony - This victory effectively means that the actual first family of India is a servant of the “first family”. The “first family” has never graced the Raisina Hills to become the actual first family of the country, but has yet yielded more control over India than all the actual first families put together.
On 07.23.07 Shailendra Mathur says:
Did we really think we could have stopped the elction of Pratibha patil by blogging, Orkutting, writing letters to English language newspapers, and participating in online polls initiated by the TOI group? If we did, we are living in a fools paradise.
We never really had a snowflakes chance in hell at stopping Pratibha Patil from becoming the President, but we can stop Congress from winning the 2009 elections. That is of paramount importance.
On 07.23.07 Palahalli says:
Mathurji: Only if the BJP does not succeed in its harakiri by then….Already in Karnataka the alliance seems to be crumbling.
Let’s observe…
On 07.23.07 Sri says:
#6
TROLL ALERT!
On 07.23.07 Anonymous says:
but we can stop Congress from winning the 2009 elections. That is of paramount importance.
We should consider ourselves lucky if Jamat-e-hind is not ruling us in 2009. We should be lucky if the home minister of the country is not from Muslim league post-2009 elections.{actually does not matter either ways, Shivraj Patil proxy’s for them)
Don’t worry Palahalli , BJP will not get more than 50 seats in 2009 and you can celebrate with your fellow morons in that great *secular* victory. And yes not because of BJP’s harakari but your own.
On 07.24.07 socal says:
>>>We should consider ourselves lucky if Jamat-e-hind is not ruling us in 2009.
Seems highly improbable that we will be spared from that glorious secular moment. If the economy keeps on well, middle-class won’t vote at all(not that they do much now). Then who’s left? Jamaatis, Marxists and Mayawatiists of course. Terrorism doesn’t bother anyone as witnessed during the Mumbai blast anniversary. People somehow managed to squeeze two minutes last time; not even that token gesture now.
Appeasement is in full swing. Rather than being alarmed at terrorism’s Bangalore connection people seem to be more concerned with poor little Haneef’s vagaries. India certainly seems to be going the Jamaat, Marxist-Maoist-Communist way. Lucky blokes. I’m jealous, seriously.
On 07.24.07 Palahalli says:
“Don’t worry Palahalli , BJP will not get more than 50 seats in 2009 and you can celebrate with your fellow morons in that great *secular* victory. And yes not because of BJP’s harakari but your own.”
- My my….such concern…? Are you guys really concerned enough to do the right thing? Or will you keep breast beating because “your” own people don’t trust “you” enough?
On 07.24.07 Shailendra Mathur says:
“Appeasement is in full swing. Rather than being alarmed at terrorism’s Bangalore connection people seem to be more concerned with poor little Haneef’s vagaries”
I think the correct pointer of the way our polity is going is, the issues on which Manmohan loses sleep.
He didnt lose any sleep over the Mumbai blasts in which nearly 200 were killed.
He didnt lose sleep over the Sankatmochan temple blast.
He didnt lose sleep over the Diwali blasts in Delhi.
And, needless to say he didnt lose sleep over the attack on Amarnath victims.
But the brave sardar did lose sleep over Muslims being branded terrorists. So we know where our Governments priorities lie!
As Palahalli correctly pointed out, breastbeating will not help remove this Satanic coalition out of power. The least we can do is, go out and vote, and vote for the candidate most likely to defeat the ruling coalition candidate in that constituency. Or else it will be 100 years of darkness for India.
Sonia has got her man in 7 Race Course Road, the Election Commission (Navin Chawla) and now Raisina Hill. Soon she will infiltrate the Supreme Court and then it will be too late.
On 07.24.07 realitycheck says:
>> If the economy keeps on well, middle-class won’t vote at all(not that they do much now). >>
Socal,
Who says the middle class does not vote along caste or religious lines ?
There is simply no alternative but to drive rationality into the classification of OBC. Until then, every group will vote to protect its own narrow benefits. These benefits have been granted and continue at the pleasure and patronage of a few politicians.
Muslims and Christians will naturally emerge winners because they are more numerous and they can mobilize nationwide. (Constrast with Laloo’s limited appeal in TN, or Deve Gowdas appeal in Orissa).
I know I am stating the obvious, but if left unstated this will be lost in the noise.
On 07.25.07 socal says:
RC,
>>>Who says the middle class does not vote along caste or religious lines ?
You have to look at the lamentable vote percentage in cities to conclude otherwise. And there’s no letting of the fractious identity(read casteist) polity in the near future. OBC reservations are too lucrative for any casteist politician to give up and lets not delude ourselves by hoping that some epiphany will lead them otherwise.
I was simply shocked by the remarkable apathy of Mumbai populace on the anniversary of terrorist bombings, or the Bangalore graduates of Al-qaeda for that matter. People don’t talk about it; media doesn’t discuss it. The writing on the wall is clear. It seems increasingly certain that the next govt. will be the most pro-Islamist one. Add to it the American withdrawal from Iraq, looming Republican defeat in US, a more pliant Labor in UK - certainly things are looking up for a Marxist/Islamist.
On 07.25.07 Anonymous says:
>> Are you guys really concerned enough to do the right thing? Or will you keep breast beating because “your” own people don’t trust “you” enough?
I think i agree with u for once. As “my own” people are pinheads like u, i ain’t have no option
On 07.25.07 Karthik says:
While I was pondering about the significance of Ms. Tainteds victory, I started wondering is there any possiblity for India to have a genuine nationalist Govt anytime in the near future. From the way things look right now I am not sure it would ever happen. Then that brought more questions. What is the point of blogging and reading all these articles. Should I also become one of those selfish Hindu middle class guy who just cares about only himself and his family who don’t give damn about his country or its people? The Hindu middle class which lost its identity ,pride and self respect. If those people don’t give a damn about me or other countrymen then why should I? Then that led me to another question should there be a country called India? What is the purpose of that entity? Is there anything common among the billion people except they are mostly Hindus. But Hindus don’t have the unity like the other guys. What is the point of sharing a country if we dont have a common purpose and a goal atleast on a very high level? I know there will be differences in any democracy. But they all give atleast some value to their citizens life. But Hindu life in India has 0 value. Absolute zero. So then why should we have a country. May be we should spilit it in to a separate country for each caste. In that case if the country has no meaning then is it wrong for me to adopt my next beloved country USA? It has its flaws but as a Hindu I will have more rights and will be treated mostly equally. Questions
Sorry guys these are not relevant to this but I thought I would get some answers here. You guys are doing an awesome job. I never posted on your blog this is my first post.
On 07.25.07 Palahalli says:
Breast beating at its best!
But its actually an old story. “Hindu” higher classes/castes have never felt comfortable and confident that their “sister” lower castes are “with them”.
“Hindus” are not known for their collective loyalties. They can be loyal to their caste…their “own”…or to a very specific local identity, but not in a collective sense. This is both good and bad. It is a shield against despotism…but also a recipe for and dish of disunity.
So many have tried to create such a “unity” amongst them that can match with “unity” amongst other nations/communities. A disinclination amongst the mass of “Hindus” to be so driven, is spat on as “pin headed”…”casteist”…”no pride”..etc etc.
“Hindu” organizations have a question to answer. Why is their project for “Hindu” Sanghatan unravelling?
The Shiv Sena is the most “radical” of “Hindu” organizations. It speaks the language many members here, want spoken, against Muslims. Many have forgotten that it spoke similarly against the Sikhs too…and South Indians. But that apart, for such an organization to side with the Pratibha Patil camp, is to say much about the quality of “Hindu’ unity.
Hedgewar’s simple formula of drawing a longer “Hindu” Line against shorter “Caste/local identities”…does not seem to be working at all.
Of course there were periods of “hope”. Actually just one.
The Ram Janmabhoomi movement may be decried by many…”secular” and “Hindu” alike…for many reasons. But THAT was one movement that truly brought ALL shades of “Hinduism” across ALL classes, together, as ONE.
But even here, there was clarity only in the fact that the Temple must be built. Not…why? Not…where? Many of these self same “Hindus” revolted when the Masjid was demolished.
I remember The Week publishing a poll post the arrests of leadership. And it had said that if there was an election, the BJP would ride a “Hindu Wave”. How could such a “wave” lose the BJP so many states in the ensuing Assembly elections?
We have the mean tendency to blame “Hindus” for not following “our” mind. We think “they” don’t know what is in “their” interests. We seem obliged to decide for them…and if they don’t listen to us…abuse them.
If Muslims seem to have a mass with no quality leadership, it does appear from rantings above, that “Hindus” seem to be all leaders….without a mass of any “quality”!
So…breast beating is now a fine art..
On 07.25.07 Shailendra Mathur says:
“If Muslims seem to have a mass with no quality leadership, it does appear from rantings above, that “Hindus” seem to be all leaders….without a mass of any “quality”!”
Muslims dont need any leadership, because they have got the final word of God in the form of ravings and rantings of the madman of Arabia - MohamMad! The fact that we dont have one holy book, one supreme leader, one God and one prophet, is what has kept us away from being tyrannical.
We accept the fact that truth can be multi-faceted rather than uni-dimensional, and that there can be many ways to reach God.
I am sanguine about the eventual destruction of Islam, just as I am equally sure that our Indian, secular leaders will not lift a finger to stop Mullah-cracy in India.
On 07.25.07 Palahalli says:
Mathurji, irrespective of the opinion you hold about Muslims and Islam, at least you are no breast beater. I am happy about that fact
I am working on a response to your post on Aavarana. Should be ready soon.
Regards,
On 07.25.07 Gaurav says:
Will someone please give candy to this Palahalli guy ?
On 07.25.07 rc says:
Palahalli,
There are two distinct issues.
1. The Hindus organize as a religion to front against what they perceive as threats due to Christians and Muslims organizing. This type of religious mobilization is what you are alluding to.
2. The Hindus (and also others) organize as voters to express their displeasure at the ever expanding concrete benefits to minorities. This mobilization could include everyone including atheists, beef eaters, or whatever. Deep down they know that for all their atheist talk, they will still be counted as Hindu when it comes down to admissions, jobs, or recently bank loans.
The first type of mobilization will not happen, unless every hindu caste falls in line with a mutt, when can then form a larger federation. Karnataka is the closest to that happening, TN is the farthest.
The reason why the second type of mobilization is not happening is because the society is fractured along caste lines and not backwardness lines. This is the grand acheivement of the quota system.
On 07.25.07 Sandeep says:
RC,
Spot on analysis! lovely
clap clap clap.
On 07.25.07 socal says:
RC,
Your second reason fails to explain why Hindus do not coalesce even when their livelihood is threatened, as in the terrorist bombings. Even the alleged selfishness doesn’t explain this anomaly. How can we fault a Manmohan or Shivraj Patil for reacting the way they do. Their reaction after Mumbai bombings and after Glasgow terror attacks was striking. One would think that this would make the usually indifferent Hindu would sit back and think and say something if not do something. Maybe he will react in some different way. But there are no symptoms of any such thing happening anywhere. If that is so then I must say it is a great achievement for secular rhetoricians. Palahalli should be proud - not only is his side winning, it has Hindus in its tight fist.
On 07.25.07 Ot says:
Our friend “Palahalli”, inspired by the dogma he was indoctrinated in by his “father”, spouts silly theories yet again:
>>“Hindus” are not known for their collective loyalties.
It is easy to guess what according to our comrade is the definition of “unity” or “loyalty”. It is, for example, to wear skullcaps, dress like Arabs in India, sport a beard, force women into the veil, and participate in a mass prayer said in Arabic. ALL must follow these rules; exceptions meet with punishment.
In other words, for those deeply trained in authoritarian ideologies like Communism, unity is synonymous with “uniformity”. Note that most often this uniformity, whether in Stalin’s Russia or in Islamic Saudi Arabia — is enforced by official diktat; it is rarely ever a manifestation of true meeting of minds. (In countries like India, it is partly enforced by diktat and partly by frightening the faithful with projections of the enemy “other”.)
And therefore, according “Palahalli” and his commie “dad”, “muslims” are a “unified” group eventhough internecine warfare is the highest between Shias and Sunnis compared to between sects or groups of any other religious denomination. If you look around, you’ll notice that whether in Iraq or Aghanistan or in Pakistan or even in Kashmir, “Muslims” are killing “Muslims” in far larger numbers than they are killing non-Muslims. Still to commie eyes, “Muslims” appear “unified” because they have (some) uniformity of belief, uniformity of dress code, of language etc. But Hindus fail this test, though they are not murdering each other, because they speak different languages, dress differently, pray differently and vote differently. In other words, diversity in this case is synonymous with “disunity”.
Anonymity is a good thing in that people reveal their true selves. On jackass cubed and squared sites, a facade of ‘liberalism’ is put up in which a show is made of celebrating diversity and difference. This is necessary because excuses are need to justify Hindu-baiting. An anonymous “Palahalli” is under no such constraints. He can be open about the fact that he fears and respects “Muslims” for what he sees as their “unity”, and he loathes and ridicules Hindus for what he sees as their “disunity”.
There is a lesson in this for Hindus, and more on that latter.
On 07.26.07 Palahalli says:
Mathurji: Muslims dont need any leadership, because they have got the final word of God in the form of ravings and rantings of the madman of Arabia - MohamMad! The fact that we dont have one holy book, one supreme leader, one God and one prophet, is what has kept us away from being tyrannical.
- Sir, but this is a wrong assumption. Both historically and in the current situation. Muslims have always had leadership. In current India, they have an informal compact with groups that would vote for sympathetic parties.
In no case were/are they “leaderless”.
*********
“We accept the fact that truth can be multi-faceted rather than uni-dimensional, and that there can be many ways to reach God.”
- On the other hand, the “Hindu” argument that their social life can be sustained without “leadership” may be taken to contain some truth.
There are different mechanisms at play here, in my opinion.
******
I am sanguine about the eventual destruction of Islam, just as I am equally sure that our Indian, secular leaders will not lift a finger to stop Mullah-cracy in India.
- Well, I am very skeptical about the “destruction” of any religion the way you think about it.Islam today is not the same it was even at the turn of the century. The way people deal with their envoronment will determine any change they might bring in their religion…and ways of life.
People keep talking about the demise of European Christianity. I look at it from the point of view of a “retention” of the Christian ethic. Frankly, this was not my thinking until I read Koenraad Elst.
#########
RC: “The Hindus organize as a religion to front against what they perceive as threats due to Christians and Muslims organizing. This type of religious mobilization is what you are alluding to.”
- In a manner, yes. However, the history of “Hindu” Sanghatan says it has always tried to grasp at a more positive motive, mainly in the form of an “anti-caste” reform. Of course, the models have varied and so have success rates. “Hindu” “negative” mobilization vis a vis “other community” mobilization has also mainly come about more as a reaction. Again, Caste has played a major role.
****
“The Hindus (and also others) organize as voters to express their displeasure at the ever expanding concrete benefits to minorities. This mobilization could include everyone including atheists, beef eaters, or whatever. Deep down they know that for all their atheist talk, they will still be counted as Hindu when it comes down to admissions, jobs, or recently bank loans.”
- To a ceratin extent, yes. However, I have yet to see negative Dalit reactions to proposed concessions for “Dalits” amongst Christians and Muslims.
I feel we are missing the point of “Hindu” disunity on this very score, that usually shows up when reservation benefits are discussed. So, it is not factual to state that the “Hindus” organize or have organized as voters against benefits to minorities.
******
The first type of mobilization will not happen, unless every hindu caste falls in line with a mutt, when can then form a larger federation. Karnataka is the closest to that happening, TN is the farthest.
- This is the “mixie” method. I would support it. However, how can the Mathas influence “Hindus” of various castes? Can we discuss this a bit more? Is there more information on the Karnataka phenomenon?
*****
The reason why the second type of mobilization is not happening is because the society is fractured along caste lines and not backwardness lines. This is the grand acheivement of the quota system.
- If you take the progress of reservations from prior to Indian Independance…and mix it with Universal Adult Franchise, post it…add the miserable rate of “Hindu” reform and apathy of the “enlightened” classes amongst “Hindus”, well, do you really expect the “second type of mobilization” to actually happen? Even the “first type” is a dream project.
*****
Socal: I respond to your post because you mention my name quite uselessly.
But, have you ever tried “credibility”? Why do you think “Hindus” don’t trust their leaders? Or their judgement? Yes. TRUST. It is not that they are not upset or are apathetic….but they are also more angry with the kind of leadership they are burdened with. They are by and large sick of your anti-this and that rhetoric, resoundingly combined with empty noise and complete lack of imagination and courage. The main sections amongst “Hindus” that “leaders” actually need to worry about, do not see anything close to reflection and empathy.
I must say the RSS has started taking tentative steps toward building some bridges. But its late…and results will be slow in coming.
*****
Ah…my friend Ot is at it again…oh well,
“It is easy to guess what according to our comrade is the definition of “unity” or “loyalty”. It is, for example, to wear skullcaps, dress like Arabs in India, sport a beard, force women into the veil, and participate in a mass prayer said in Arabic. ALL must follow these rules; exceptions meet with punishment.”
- In all of my posts, I have stressed the fact that Muslims DO NOT react or act uniformly. Even though Islamists amongst them seem to do so. I have further noted that extreme violence committed by these Islamists follow long periods of indoctrination. Quite obviously, a “daily” reading of the Koran is insufficient.
Ha ha!! > “exceptions meet with punishment”…Now I am certain Ot is a forest dweller with connectivity!
*****
“In other words, for those deeply trained in authoritarian ideologies like Communism, unity is synonymous with “uniformity”. Note that most often this uniformity, whether in Stalin’s Russia or in Islamic Saudi Arabia — is enforced by official diktat; it is rarely ever a manifestation of true meeting of minds. (In countries like India, it is partly enforced by diktat and partly by frightening the faithful with projections of the enemy “other”.)”
- This is very funny…! I can understand “uniformity” in Saudi Arabia…and as I write,
Osama B L’s son is revolting against his family’s orthodoxy! In Saudi Arabia!
But, “uniformity” in the Soviet Union is new to me. I know of “collectives”, but uniformity? How so? Irreligion? Even here…it was well as long as you towed the Party Line and/or maintained a low profile. Has Ot heard of Nikita Krushchev? And his speech in 1956?
And the paint-brush reference to Indian Muslims! God! Ignorance must have its limits!
But the forest has its limitations…I understand
*****
“But Hindus fail this test, though they are not murdering each other, because they speak different languages, dress differently, pray differently and vote differently. In other words, diversity in this case is synonymous with “disunity”.”
- This is becoming a bit sad now. I thought “Hindus” were being lambasted for “voting” as they liked…and not per trembling Ot’s diktat!?
But, diversity is different. Disunity is different. Not always is the latter a consequence of the former. In the “Hindu” case, the malignant “Caste diversity” is sapping its strength.
The bonds that would “unite” “Hindus” remain in short supply. My friend Ot seems much too modest to admit it.
*****
“An anonymous “Palahalli” is under no such constraints. He can be open about the fact that he fears and respects “Muslims” for what he sees as their “unity”, and he loathes and ridicules Hindus for what he sees as their “disunity”.”
- This is a GEM. Maybe Ot can explain more over the phone? - 9880350018. I am usually free to talk post 1600 hrs. Maybe over a beer? Let me know..ok?
Regards,
On 07.26.07 shadows says:
Ha ha!! > “exceptions meet with punishment”…Now I am certain Ot is a forest dweller with connectivity!
=================
Palahalli,
Were you asking me to apologise for personal remarks ???
>>>The bonds that would “unite” “Hindus” remain in short supply.
Thanks to people like you, Palahalli.. if we do unite, it is like communal and fundamentalist.. no such issues with the muslim “ummah”
>>> I have stressed the fact that Muslims DO NOT react or act uniformly.
Palahalli, nothing is absolute.. Put it another way - muslims react MUCH MORE uniformly than any other group. Particularly, with the non-believers
>>>Islam today is not the same it was even at the turn of the century.
Yep, its moving towards the 7th Century
>> I am usually free to talk post 1600 hrs. Maybe over a beer?
I wonder what you would talk like after a beer… when you are like this now.
Yep, have beer , but stop doping..
On 07.26.07 Palahalli says:
Shadows…Shadows…”Were you asking me to apologise for personal remarks ???”
And of course…you listen to “people like me”…before “uniting” 
- Not “personal remarks”…but dishonest observations.
****
“Thanks to people like you, Palahalli.. if we do unite, it is like communal and fundamentalist..”
- Ah..such sensitivity
****
“Palahalli, nothing is absolute.. Put it another way - muslims react MUCH MORE uniformly than any other group. Particularly, with the non-believers..”
- Hmmm…I seem to have found one “Hindu” that cannot exploit cleavages…but there!…he deludes himself again!
****
“Yep, its moving towards the 7th Century..”
- At least you were happy with turn of the century model??
****
“Yep, have beer , but stop doping..”
- Thanks…and I will. But more of such posts from you and i’ll have to do dope
On 07.26.07 Ravindra says:
Nice article on the Presidential Polls by Ashok Malik in the Pioneer.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=ashok%2Fashok83%2Etxt&writer=ashok
Dunno if the link works though (knowing the Pioneer website!)
On 07.26.07 Shailendra Mathur says:
@Shadows & Palahalli : Such killing sarcasm :D. Guys what exactly is it that you are debating? And what earth shaking event do you reckon will occur, once you folks reach a conclusion?
On 07.26.07 Palahalli says:
Mathurji….good one
Banter is good….Shadows is my friend.
On 07.26.07 Ot says:
Our Kannada friend “Palahalli” displays the training he received from his “father”. Yet again.
“I can understand “uniformity” in Saudi Arabia…and as I write,
Osama B L’s son is revolting against his family’s orthodoxy! In Saudi Arabia!”
And therefore, our friend will tell you, uniformity is not imposed in Saudi Arabia. Enourage him a bit more, and he’ll wax eloquent on the “unity” between Shias, Sunnis and Qadiyanis, and how he drank the very milk and honey they offered him and his “father” on the streets of Peshawar.
Forest-dwelling is not the right idea for Comrade Halli. A padded cell seems more like it.
On 07.26.07 socal says:
>>>”Socal: I respond to your post because you mention my name quite uselessly.
But, have you ever tried “credibility”? Why do you think “Hindus” don’t trust their leaders? Or their judgement? Yes. TRUST.”
Well, utility is subjective. I thought you had a higher sense of vanity to associate futility with your name. Anyway, talk of “TRUST” and “credibility,” coming from you is quite rich.
>>>”It is not that they are not upset or are apathetic….but they are also more angry with the kind of leadership they are burdened with. They are by and large sick of your anti-this and that rhetoric, resoundingly combined with empty noise and complete lack of imagination and courage. The main sections amongst “Hindus” that “leaders” actually need to worry about, do not see anything close to reflection and empathy.”
Please…I don’t know what grouse you’ve with Hindu leaders(RSS as I read it) but I would appreciate if you desist from rhetoric laced with personal agenda. I mean whatever fault you find with them is your personal issue and I am least interested in that.
Anyway, as I see it, Hindu leadership is hardly an issue here when we talk about terrorism or rank appeasement. The govt. inaction directly affects secular issues of public life - liberty, opportunity and security, and as such one would expect that even secular fanatics would raise questions on those counts. Few dhimmis on that side doesn’t perplex me. What does alarm me however is that the ordinarily sane “secularists” who should demur, even if in lowered voices, are not doing so. I can understand the secular establishment peppering over Godhra, since the dead involved Ramsevaks, who don’t have any human rights. But Mumbai, Delhi, and now Bangalore- it is their own secular people who were victims, yet no protests, well if one discounts the two minute silence.
On 07.26.07 Palahalli says:
Socal: “Anyway, talk of “TRUST” and “credibility,” coming from you is quite rich.”
- Why?
****
“Please…I don’t know what grouse you’ve with Hindu leaders(RSS as I read it) but I would appreciate if you desist from rhetoric laced with personal agenda. I mean whatever fault you find with them is your personal issue and I am least interested in that.”
- What “personal” agenda? I feel you have never dealt or worked within the Sangh at any point in time. I have..for a very long time. All this may sound “personal”..whatever that means, to you..but the fact is these are my CONSIDERED OBSERVATIONS.
****
“Anyway, as I see it, Hindu leadership is hardly an issue here when we talk about terrorism or rank appeasement.”
- No, but you were talking about the “silence in the streets”. I was responding to that. The fact that so called “Hindu” leaders have lost a tremendous amount of credibility leaves our people with very little choice.
****
“The govt. inaction directly affects secular issues of public life - liberty, opportunity and security, and as such one would expect that even secular fanatics would raise questions on those counts. Few dhimmis on that side doesn’t perplex me. What does alarm me however is that the ordinarily sane “secularists” who should demur, even if in lowered voices, are not doing so.”
- Yes..inaction does affect “secular dhimmi” lives also..as you say it. However, these blasted “Dhimmis” probably deserve it? But your worry was a general “complacence” amongst common folk. Am I right? If so, then you must have a magic way to tell “Dhimmis” from “Hindu-Nationalists” in a crowd
May I ask how you know that all of these “non-reactionaries” are of the same cultural/political bent? I mean…what kind of straight jacket have you been wearing pal??
****
“I can understand the secular establishment peppering over Godhra, since the dead involved Ramsevaks, who don’t have any human rights.”
- It’s not a question of Ram Bhaktas not having human rights…it is very plainly a question of ..”Aag kisne lagayee???!”….quickly slipping into scandalous inaction and thence open connivance.
****
“it is their own secular people who were victims, yet no protests, well if one discounts the two minute silence.”
- But, my friend..we were on the “common man’s” reaction. I know that H-Vadi organizations have largely lost touch with the pulse of our people…but et tu Socal?
On 07.27.07 socal says:
>>>But, my friend..we were on the “common man’s” reaction. I know that H-Vadi organizations have largely lost touch with the pulse of our people…but et tu Socal?
Please…no patronizing. You will just make yourself insufferable. I would appreciate if you let me be me and you be you, and drop any references to unctuous friendship.
On 07.27.07 Palahalli says:
Who’s patronizing?? I will be much pleased if you simply respond to my points.
On 07.27.07 shadows says:
>>> Not “personal remarks”…but dishonest observations.
Thats what you were doing.. Thats your speciality.. distorting posts and meanings.. going around in circles.. I proved it and quoted your comments.. but if you are unable to understand…
Sighsss.. thats what we get when parents give the keyboards to kids with low IQ ..
>>> And of course…you listen to “people like me”…before “uniting”
No. Pseudo-secular hypocrites like you sure create problems for us.. of course, you have seen one good muslim and you see hindu unity as a threat to peace-loving muslims,,
>>> he deludes himself again!
Does that refute what I said ?? Apart from dope, you are pretty rich with words too..
>>> But more of such posts from you and i’ll have to do dope
But I wont
keep entertaining 
>>> Shadows is my friend.
heh.. i would rather make a snake my friend, than a pseudo-secular..
On 07.27.07 shadows says:
>>>But, my friend..we were on the “common man’s” reaction. I know that H-Vadi organizations have largely lost touch with the pulse of our people…but et tu Socal?
Please…no patronizing. You will just make yourself insufferable. I would appreciate if you let me be me and you be you, and drop any references to unctuous friendship.
Who’s patronizing?? I will be much pleased if you simply respond to my points.
==================
Socal,
if you respond trying to prove that he was being patronizing, you will simply be wasting your time and effort… and he will succeed in diverting from the post..
palahalli is a troll.. he will distort, misquote, go around in circles, needlessly argue, and deliberately change the meanings of the posts..
On 07.27.07 Shailendra Mathur says:
http://telegraphindia.com/1070727/asp/foreign/story_8113215.asp
Pseudo secularism at work. Again. Shambo is a bull that belongs to a Hindu temple in Britain. The bull has been diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis, due to which the Brits want to slaughter him. Obviously the Hindus protest, because they hold cows and bulls as sacred.
The fact that the British government doesnt pay any heed to religious convictions of Hindus is not surprising. After all we don’t hold them to ransom by perpetrating suicide bombings and terror attacks. But what is amazing is the reaction of the Indian High Commission. To quote from the report
“The High Commission also did not want to be seen favouring one community over another, meaning it did not want to be seen showing a pro-Hindu bias.”
So it is okay to show a pro Muslim bias, when reprimanding the Aussies for alleged bias against dealing with a suspected Muslim terrorist, but responding to Hindu pleas to save the life of a sacred bull is not okay.
On 07.27.07 Ot says:
Talking of breast-beating:
Note that with death sentences out for the killers that pulled off the Bombay blasts of ‘93, there’s the usual breastbeating on cubed and squared off sites. Indeed, the spectacle is worth watching. Lifting face up and whining forlornly.
It’s to the creadit of Comrade Halli and his “father” that they are not into breastbeating.
On 07.27.07 socal says:
>>>Socal,
if you respond trying to prove that he was being patronizing, you will simply be wasting your time and effort…
shadows,
Thanks for the heads up, but that’s not really needed. I certainly have better things to do than convince old man palahalli. Hopefully we’ll see some moderation and get some useful insight about his side.
On 07.27.07 Palahalli says:
Shadows and Co. - “palahalli is a troll.. he will distort, misquote, go around in circles, needlessly argue, and deliberately change the meanings of the posts..”
- This is the conclusion of your “arguments”. If you are imbued with some amount of online etiquette and decency, you will make a case to support this charge. If not, real “trolls” are not hard to identify.
*****
Mathurji: The case for Shambo was taken to court and British “Hindus” who filed suite lost because the law of the land demanded that this infected animal be slaughtered. I don’t think it would be correct to differentiate “Hindus” from “Brits”.
In my opinion, the High Commission should not have even been contacted for support. I don’t think “Hindus” will feel good about any Muslim contacting an Islamic embassy and asking for intervention…even though rabid H-Vadis never fail to portray our Muslims as treacherous fifth column.
The case of human rights being molested is vastly different. I feel the Indian Government fails us in Fiji, Bangladesh, Malaysia etc…because it does not use its influence to safeguard legitimate human rights. It is “Hindus” that man these High Commissions and embassies too.
There was another case back in 1996…when the VHP-Britain, requested for 12 millions of diagnosed mad cows meant to be slaughtered, to be transported to India for shelter and care. This is being extremely stupid.
The case against Haneef is legally weak….as far as current visibility goes. I did not notice our government speaking “in favor” of his cousins in Britain. No one accused Bush of being a P-Sec when he made speeches clarifying that terrorists must be differentiated from innocent people.
I am certain you do not want a witch hunt.
On 07.27.07 Palahalli says:
Socal: “I certainly have better things to do than convince old man palahalli.”
- I am not in the “convincing” game myself..but I want a lot of people to read the quality of some “views” here.
Ot: A reminder. You accused me of hiding behind a facade. That’s not what I do. Please try not to repeat that charge again.
On 07.27.07 Ot says:
What rabid commies like Comrade Halli and his “father” don’t realize is that the Indian government has no business insinuating that the Australian justice system or law-enforcement is unfair. The government has enacted a drama over the Haneef issue primarily to suck up to “Muslims”, not because it saw any violation of “human rights” or because it really cares for “human rights”. (How can a government that survives on the support of communists — the biggest killers of 20th century — have any respect for human rights?)
On 07.27.07 socal says:
>>>I am not in the “convincing” game myself..but I want a lot of people to read the quality of some “views” here.
Any particular reason as to why this site is to be a recipient of your benign grace?
On 07.27.07 Palahalli says:
” The government has enacted a drama over the Haneef issue primarily to suck up to “Muslims”, not because it saw any violation of “human rights” or because it really cares for “human rights”.”
- Ot, this is a quarrel between you and a GOI representative. Even the Aussie govt now seems to want to deport Haneef instead of trying him there.
I reckon your ire is with the GOI’s base motivations and not the merit/demerit of Haneef’s case in itself. If so, that’s pretty rational. I’m with you.
As far as “biggest killers” are concerned, it is the power wielded over others that decides scale. Of course, the fanaticism and inhumanity of Hitler, Stalin and Mao cannot thankfully be matched and replicated again.
****
Socal: “Any particular reason as to why this site is to be a recipient of your benign grace?”
Heck…if it can be of yours…it can surely be of mine
But let me know when your bruised ego is healed.
On 07.28.07 socal says:
>>>“Any particular reason as to why this site is to be a recipient of your benign grace?”
Heck…if it can be of yours…it can surely be of mine.
Well, any particular reason you want “a lot of people to read the quality of some “views” here”? Mine should be understandable- Sandeep gives voice to a lot of issues that I consider dear. Since you seem to be at crossroads with most of them I was simply curious. It usually goes against the grain of your kind.
“But let me know when your bruised ego is healed.”
I would be glad if it were so but none seem to exhibit that potential so far. For, that to happen, one has to present coherent countervailing ideas. Unfortunately those who do, seem to be on the same side of the argument as I am. For the incapacitated, I would say, “Physician heal thyself.” And then, try. I am eager to be bruised.
On 07.28.07 Palahalli says:
Socal:”Since you seem to be at crossroads with most of them I was simply curious. It usually goes against the grain of your kind.”
- Socal…is it so bad that I do not get into bed with the “best” in the market? Your “best” does not appeal to me at all. Sandeep’s raising of issues, I feel, is a call for debate. Not blind acquiescence. As a “Hindu”, I thought you understood this simple concept. Disappointing.
I will be glad to provide “countervailing” arguments once you get “unstuck” from fanaticism. It is pretty frustrating when folks go on and on about Muslims this and Muslims that! It comes across as a mighty whine…and it really is little else.
Mathurji has posted what he believes to be a solution. I am eager to respond to him…but see myself stuck responding to your “kind’s” senseless posts. I am being very blunt. But I enjoy rubbing some bombastic noses in the ground too
Your “kind” think you are jacks and kings of all you survey. But the fact is..your “awareness and knowledge” about anything from Hindutva to Communism…is miserably mediocre at best and ill-informed at worst. This can still be rectified with experience and study. Take heart.
One other thing. Maturity lies in being able to stand alone if required and not get flustered when faced with all round condemnation and abuse. It will not be wrong if I say that I have faced this on this board at every step. You..with all out support from “your kind” for your so-called arguments…display the tenacity of a wimp in distress. This particularly ennobling characteristic is shared by your “kind” too. So be happy.
Mathurji….your not included in Socal’s “kind”. I wished to clarify that.
On 07.28.07 Karthik says:
Palahalli I was looking at all your posts. It seems like you are the only odd man out here and if you are trying to convert us to your camp. Tough luck dude. The problem with all your posts are you never gave any convincing reasons are logical reasons to prove your case. You are simply accusing everybody and always comes up with some convoluted logic.( I didn’t post it here because other guys took care of that) This is no way to win an argument. So beat it dude. You are not posting to commie controlled news paper or blogs. You are just making yourself a laughingstock.
On 07.28.07 Ot says:
Comrade Halli averred:
“Even the Aussie govt now seems to want to deport Haneef instead of trying him there.
I reckon your ire is with the GOI’s base motivations and not the merit/demerit of Haneef’s case in itself.”
The Australian government was faced with a tough choice. There was apparently little evidence connecting Haneef to the UK terrorist attacks, but there was enough connecting him to the attackers. If it let Haneef go on the basis of the former, it could be freeing a potential terrorist, thereby endangering the lives — and human rights — of many innoncent people. (Think Kandahar. The Islamic terrorists released by our “Hindutva” government under the pressure of an orchestrated campaign by a commie media went on to murder hundreds of people.) The Australian government chose to brave charges of “violating” the “human rights” of a terrorism suspect in preference over protecting the human rights of many innocent people. Hence it held him in custody till it completed its due diligence. I commend Australians for not buckling under the pressure of Islamists and their commie friends.
“As far as “biggest killers” are concerned, it is the power wielded over others that decides scale. Of course, the fanaticism and inhumanity of Hitler, Stalin and Mao cannot thankfully be matched and replicated again”
Comrade Halli’s love of communism touches my heart and brings tears to my eyes. It was all just the fault of Stalin and Mao you see — kind of like there was nothing wrong with Nazism but only with Hitler.
I encourage Comrade Halli and his “father” to read the following book:
The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism
http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Janus-Marxism-Fascism-Twentieth/dp/0300078277
From Amazon.com blurb:
“fascism and communism meld into each other. Fascism had its origins in communism, and communism exhibited facets of fascism from its inception.”
From a review of the book:
“fascism .. began with a split in the ranks of Marxian socialism…. Its economic program was borrowed from German non-Marxian socialism .. and its conduct of government affairs was a replica of Lenin’s dictatorship… Nazism is the purest and most consistent manifestation of the anticapitalistic and socialistic spirit of our age.”
Those of us who have not seen widespread killings by communists in India (barring the occasional Nandigram by CPIM and frequent masscares by Naxals) tend to fall for the leftwing propaganda that Communism is not to be blamed for the genocides in USSR, Eastern Bloc, China and other communist countries. But make no mistake: Communsim killed people in millions precisely because, like Nazism, it is a hate philosophy geared to kill.
On 07.28.07 Palahalli says:
Karthik - “(I didn’t post it here because other guys took care of that) This is no way to win an argument. So beat it dude. You are not posting to commie controlled news paper or blogs. You are just making yourself a laughingstock.”
- You are a true friend Karthik. Thanks for taking up for Socal and Co.
However, I have a bad bourgeoisie *being experts in “communism”, you guys must be aware of this word (?)* habit of demanding evidence. So, your line -”I didn’t post it here because other guys took care of that” simply does not wash with me. So, court is adjourned till such time as you gather enough “muck” on me since…you must remember, “you are not posting to commie controlled news paper or blogs”.
*******
Ot: Straw man arguments aside, you have made important observations.
It was, first of all, not my contention that the Aussie Govt had “infringed” on Haneef’s human rights. I was responding to the “tenor” of posts that took for granted, Haneef’s guilt. I also made the point that the Indian GOI had NOT spoken “for” the “human rights” of terror suspects in Britain.
In so far as Kandahar is concerned, the GOI…which was as you rightly said, “Hindutva” oriented…released not “suspects” but CONVICTED terrorists that were DEMANDED by the HIJACKERS in addition to ransom. Your effort to air brush the H-Vadi regime is praiseworthy and understandable. But your attempt to blame their decision on an overbearing media is pathetic.
In Jassi’s own words - http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/21onkar1.htm
Coming to communism, despite your pathological effort to brand me a “commie”, I am not.
I mentioned the three BIGs because these were personally responsible for the slaughter they instituted. Not just against “Class Enemies” and the “Untermenshen”, but against own party men that they assumed, were a threat to their person, if not their “position”. Not even against “their ideology”. A Trotsky was not anti-communist. A Deng was not too. In fact he had to write Mao servile letters of personal allegiance in order to get back in a position of reckoning. Ernst Roehm, the head of Hitler’s SA was an ardent Nazi who would die for Hitler if he only requested. These are just names…bare minimum indicators. One thing in common amongst the 3 BIG blokes was that they were basically criminal. Stalin and Hitler from before they came to power. Mao started off post his take over. You may argue that Communism did nothing to detract their basic thought process. You are correct. Communism places real power in the hands of The Party and creates a “theoretical” Class Enemy. Anybody who can manipulate this Party owns extreme power and gets to create “Class Enemies” that suite their purposes.
In so far as Nazism is concerned, it was centered on Hitler’s personality. Period. Historically speaking, it is difficult to argue if there would have been Nazism without a Hitler. Mein Kampf is not Das Kapital. But Mussolini attempted to build a more, comparatively “impersonal” philosophy of Fascism from his former Socialist mooring. You will observe, there are marked differences between Fascism and Nazism.
I went through the link and saw this piece that makes a lot of sense.
“The book traces that relationship by following the progressive decay of Marxist theory over seven decades as it devolves into a variant of Fascism.”
This is obviously with respect to the former USSR.
When Khrushchev spoke to the Twentieth Congress of the CPSU in 1956, he made a significant point about “the cult of Personality”. He said this should never happen again.
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/khrush_speech.html
I found this interesting debate that suites our context –
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/002168.html
In China, Mao was supported by the Gang of Four in his later days. Headed by his wife, this “Gang” attempted to step into “his” shoes when he died. They were rounded up by The Party.
Well, I have no issue with the Mr.Gregor.
On 07.28.07 shadows says:
Shailendra jee,
Please stop feeding the troll… he is just filling up the comment space with his nonsense. Let us rather have more meaningful and factual (and of course, shorter) comments to read.
Best wishes.. Thanks.
On 07.28.07 Palahalli says:
Shadows…please stop being a bore.
Don’t worry. Mathurji won’t defect.
Regards,