In an article that examines some of the recent happenings around the Sethusamudram project, Outlook fleshes out interesting findings worth exploring in detail. The focus of the article is on Karunanidhi’s angry articulations on Lord Rama. (Aside: I think it’s time the K in DMK is changed to Karunanidhi.)
It is understandable that, as the article says, the DMK right from "Periyar" hates Lord Rama–the hatred forms one of the prominent pillars of their political edifice. Ironically, "Periyar’s" real name has Rama in it. But let’s see how this article–seemingly neutral in tone–actually perpetuates that hatred using familiar methods: truth by repeated assertion of lies, quoting out of context, quoting questionable sources, etc. It says:
The Tamil Nadu countryside is exposed to folk forms that celebrate Ravana as a hero and Rama as the villain who treated women unfairly.
It is interesting to note that not one folk form is named. For example, Yakshagana/Vesha in Karnataka performs popular themes like Draupadi’s humiliation at the hands of the Kauravas, the story of Nala and Damayanti, Krishna’s childhood exploits, and so on. In an article that explores say, the conception of Nala in folk forms, I’d naturally mention Yakshagana/Vesha even if I didn’t mention any other folk form.
The article also quotes a certain Geetha to scout for examples that it says explains Karunanidhi’s dementia statements.
[Dravidian movement] felt the Ramayan exemplified all the ills of what they considered northern—Brahminical Aryan culture. The beheading of Tadaka, the killing of Shambuka, the banishing of Sita etc were considered instances of Aryan racism and barbarity."
So why doesn’t Outlook scout for examples from the other side and mention Rama’s devotion to his parents, his Kingly qualities, his role as a monogamous husband in an age where polygamy was the norm, etc. If Rama beheaded Shambuka only because he was a Shudra (sic), why don’t the Dravidian champs mention Guha or Shabari who hailed from lower castes?
More blunders follow.
But Geetha says that what should be borne in mind is that Rama is not such an emotive issue in the south. For instance, Ramlalla, the deity of the child Ram, which was smuggled in and installed at the disputed site in Ayodhya, does not strike a chord in these parts.
And on what basis does this Geetha-whoisshe–say this? Like most in the Indian media, the "South" begins and ends with Tamil Nadu. So what then explains the overwhelming throngs at Bhadrachalam hailed as the Ayodhya of the South? What explains the spiritual significance assigned to the surroundings of Hampi, which is believed to be a camping place of Rama in his quest to rescue Sita? What also explains the fact that most of Thyagaraja’s Krithis are in praise of Lord Rama? Geetha takes a selective instance of Ramlalla to slam her half-baked theory down our throats. Rama remains to be part of the collective consciousness of millions of Hindus all over India. Time and place have merely altered symbolic significance but Rama is worshipped and revered the same way transcending differences of time and place. Let’s go to Indonesia, which houses several depictions of Rama and Ramayana. Can we simply say that because Ramlalla is unknown there, Rama ceases to be significant or an "emotive issue" there?
And then the article indulges in a bit of obfuscation via word play.
In a historical sense, Rama has not been as important as some other gods in the Hindu pantheon. He has, for example, never been a guardian deity of dynasties.
So who defines this "historical sense?" And what are the other important Gods in the Hindu pantheon? All Hindus believe in the ten avatars of Lord Vishnu and there’s nothing like a "lesser" avatar. In fact, contrary to what this Outlook eminence says, the Ramayana has a tale where Rama defeats the Kshatriya-vanquishing Brahmin Parashurama, the sixth avatar. What’s interesting is that the article completely fails to mention that Ramanavami (to celebrate Rama’s birthday) is one of the major festivals in South India. Because he’s not a guardian deity of dynasties doesn’t automatically mean his importance is less. Every Hindu knows that specific Gods are invoked for specific purposes–Hanuman for strength, Durga/Kali for courage, and so on.
The questionable quoting continues
There are much fewer Ram temples than Shiva temples in TN, and even in Kerala.Rama’s rather unhappy tale is one reason for this, points out Dr A.R.Venkatachalapathy of the Madras Institute of Development Studies. "The popular belief is that worshipping Rama will bring grief—he was banished, his wife was abducted, his children were born in the forest."
So what are Venkatachalapathy’s credentials as a scholar on Rama? And where’s the evidence for the said "popular belief?" On the other hand, the popular belief is worshipping Rama inculcates ideals worth following–devotion to wife and family, constancy in truth, virtuousness, and fighting for a lady’s honour. Logically, the fact that there are few temples in Tamil Nadu doesn’t prove that Rama is not popular there. This article shows otherwise. What’s also amazing is this article fails to mention Karnataka and Andhra where you have an abundance of Rama temples. The amazement is understandable because it doesn’t fit into Outlook’s theory.
And more logical goof-ups.
In fact in Tamil Nadu, Diwali—or Deepavali—is celebrated in memory of Krishna’s victory over Narakasura.
Again, South India=Tamil Nadu. And Naraka Chaturdashi (one of the festivals during the 3-day long Deepavali) is celebrated in Karnataka as well. For Rama, we have Ramanavami.
The article now examines the "literary" side of the story. It cites the Kambam as saying that
Many Tamils who know the Ramayana know it through its Tamil version, the Kamba Ramayanam. In it, Ravana is highly venerated as a Vedic scholar, a connoisseur of music, a warrior—as an epitome of everything moral. In short, Ravana is a tragic hero, not villain.
Valmiki’s Ravana is more or less similar in character. Ravana is in fact described as one of the greatest devotees of Lord Shiva. The amazing Shiva Tandava stotra attributed to Ravana is a stellar work of rhyme and wordplay. However, that doesn’t make him "tragic hero" much less a moral person because he lusted after another man’s wife. Perhaps Outlook’s definition of morality excludes this. The selfsame Kamban
…who, again, is not a Brahmin and is a grand scholar of Sanskrit and an unabashed admirer of Valmiki,establishes that, for his bhaktas, Rama is the One who is the origin of all. This, it must be remembered, is a sure departure from Valmiki, for whom Rama was only a Maryada Purushottam.
The questionable quoting continues unabated.
Ravi Kumar, an MLA of the Dalit Panthers of India,…. "Tamil Nadu has no popular tradition of Ram worship. In villages, they worship local deities…only recently have Hanuman statues sprung up—along the highways. But they have no cultural roots," he says.
So we have a Ravi Kumar now, added to the galaxy of Rama scholars. Offered without comment.
But Outlook reserves the best for the last.
Interestingly, the average Brahmin Outlook contacted is not as affronted by Karunanidhi’s remarks as his brethren in the rest of the country. For him, his own spin ritualistic worship of Rama and the DMK’s atheist approach have coexisted—for decades together.
Outlook’s wretchedness is in full force here. So Rama is now reduced to being merely a "Brahmin" God. While we’re at it, Outlook can also give us a partial list of the "average" Brahmins it has contacted. What’s interesting is how Outlook spins the DMK’s naked hatred as "atheist approach." The Hindus haven’t really coexisted–they’ve been forced to accept state-backed bullying. Those who didn’t have migrated. And it is no coincidence that the overwhelming migrators have been Brahmins.
In the end, I can only be amazed at the tizzy over Rama/Ramayana in public discourse. Rama-haters claim that he was wicked, etc because he killed Shambuka, etc. In the same breath, they claim that Ramayana is fiction, Rama didn’t exist, etc. They used this to prove that Ayodhya as Rama’s birthplace holds no water. More currently, they’re using similar tactics to support the destruction of Ram Sethu. If Ramayana is plain fiction, why the fuss about why Ram killed Shambuka or people of "lower castes?" Why dig up non-existent "facts" about how the "Aryan" Rama conquered the "Dravidian" South?
It is a story after all.
Tags: Commentary, History, Indian Philosophy, Indian Politics, Media Watch, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, Society & Culture, War on Communism
On 09.26.07 Kuttan says:
She is probably one of those who calls every south Indian a Madrasi!! I wouldn’t be surprised if that is the official stand of Outlook either.
On 09.27.07 Niketan says:
Sandeep
Just one comment - Excellent
Kuttan
One cannot expect anything better from a rag like Outlook - You are right - Most likely this is Outlook’s stand
On 09.27.07 Balaji says:
Dude, the outlook article mentions the word ’south’ only twice. Once to say the Ramlalla didn’t evoke much emotions in South and that the dravidian movement considers Ramayan as the Aryan invasion of the south. I wonder whats wrong with these two statements. Everywhere else the article clearly says its about Tamilnadu.
What the rest of India or even the rest of the world thinks about Ram is irrelevant to this article. Its only about what Tamilnadu thinks about Ram. And I being a Tamil can vouch for the accuracy of this article. What you think about Ram cannot shape how we Tamils treat Ram. Diversity is not us sucking up to your ideas. Its you and us respecting each others opinions and culture.
I can refute each and every nonsensical question you have raised here. But can you save me the trouble by reading those answers from my comments to various posts on NationalInterest.in which you have linked anyway?
Stop the FUD guys! You can worship Ram, bindaas. Nobody is stopping you. But don’t force your beliefs on the vast majority of Tamils who are not great fans of Ram.
On 09.27.07 Prudent Indian says:
Excellent and very enlightening.
PI
On 09.27.07 Stop Torturing Ram.Sandeep argues. « The Prudent Indian says:
[...] Here in the following ‘Brilliant’ piece he has ‘ripped apart’ this article as published in the “Secular, Liberal and Progressive” Outlook. [...]
On 09.27.07 Vayuputra says:
Balaji,
Dont speak on behalf of All tamils.Getting sick and tired of your rantings.Living in Tamil Nadu for a long time i can vouch that what you are saying is utter crap!
Ram is still God for all People who call they are Hindus whether they are Tamils or Telugus etc.Probably you are a unique creature where you call yourself a Hindu but at the same time you talk nonsense.I have read all your comments in yossarin’s blog and i presume that you belong to Mu.Ka’s school of thoughts where you can find only self centred thougts.Have you ever read Murasoli where you can find your idol Mu.Ka writing question and answers by himself.You belong to the same category like Mu.Ka.
Would like to remind you that Rama is not like your Mu.Ka. wherein he has married only Sita in his lifetime,whereas look at your idol Mu.Ka oficialy 3 wives unofficially countless.dont take sides with characterless people like your Mu.Ka my friend.And moreover Outlook is not a Holy book to take it perse.Everybody knows that Vinodh Mehta is … licking stooge of the most secular party in the country - Congress.Whatever he has written doesnt proscribe to Tamils.
On 09.27.07 Sandeep says:
Interesting observations, Balaji.
First question: did you read the complete article?
>>Once to say the Ramlalla didn’t evoke much emotions in South and that the dravidian movement considers Ramayan as the Aryan invasion of the south.
To that, I’ve given a rather lengthy rebuttal how Rama evokes the same sentiments across India (and elsewhere, e.g. Indonesia etc) and it doesn’t matter in which form he is worshipped–Ramlalla in the north, etc.
>>I wonder whats wrong with these two statements.
Second question: Have you read my blog post fully? I’ve answered rather in detail what precisely is wrong with not just those two statements but the entire article.
>>What the rest of India or even the rest of the world thinks about Ram is irrelevant to this article.
Really? So why mention Ramlalla in that case?
>>Its only about what Tamilnadu thinks about Ram. And I being a Tamil can vouch for the accuracy of this article. what you think about Ram cannot shape how we Tamils treat Ram.
Absolutely. Using your same argument, I can as easily conclude that what YOU as a Tamil think about Ram cannot shape what the rest of the Tamils think about him.
>>Diversity is not us sucking up to your ideas. Its you and us respecting each others opinions and culture.
Right and neither did my post imply/ask anybody to “suck up” (rather unfortunate choice of words) to my ideas. So where do you detect any trace of disrespect in my post?
>>I can refute each and every nonsensical question you have raised here.
Please refute just ONE “nonsensical question” and we’ll take it forward from there. I know you’ve answered it elsewhere but these are MY specific questions, so just refute just ONE.
>>But don’t force your beliefs on the vast majority of Tamils who are not great fans of Ram.
Again you’re indulging in the same crime you attribute to “us.” Stop speaking on behalf of all Tamils.
On 09.27.07 Sandeep says:
Hi Balaji
As a person who displayed ‘extra-ordinary’ understanding of the Dravidian political Landscape and also has one who gets really agitated when the hypocrisy of Dravidian movement is laid thredbare(to be fair,every socio-politico-cultural ideological movement have conradictions) ,there is a specific question that Sandeep has asked-Which is the folk form in Tamil Nadu that demonises Ram?It will be great if you can respond to it
Sandeep
Ravi Kumar is noted a bank officer-Dalit Scholar who became a MLA of the Dalit Panthers movement.He is a scholar in the Chandraprasad Bhans mould.He has repeatedely exposed the tyrannical nature of Upper-Class agararain OBCdominated Dravidian Movement vis-a vis the Dalits .The record of Dravidian movement has been despicable ,especially the marginalisation of Dalits and systematic attack on them by the landed OBC class who interests Dravidian movement purports to espouses.
Also the visceral hatred of Periyar towards Muslims/Dalits has been documented by Ravikumar
I advise people like Balaji to read this -http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ravikumar020306.htm
and then make judgement on the Dravidian movement which is probably only ideological movement that has compromised on each one of its founding principle while intermittently reviving the phoney Anti-Brahiminsim.
Balaji also i find it amusing that you have arrogated the right to silence several valid criticisms of the Dravidiam movement without providing powerful counter.The inability to counter mighr because the Dravidian ideology has been reduced to a mockery.Its now first family enterprise for guard their commercial interets and has long outlived any utility
On 09.27.07 Ot says:
Balaji wrote:
“Its only about what Tamilnadu thinks about Ram”
What Tamilnadu thinks about Ram will be known only if a referendum on the issue is held in Tamilandu. That Outlook dimwit’s claims are just that: claims.
“What you think about Ram cannot shape how we Tamils treat Ram”
Feel free to provide some evidence that “Tamils” have elected you as their spokesperson. You are perhaps genuiney speaking for “Balaji”, perhaps you’re speaking for his family as well, but to suppose that you are speaking for all of “Tamils” is a silly leap of illogic. In fact, Jayalalthaa at loggerheads with Karunanidhi on the Ram subject, and you ought to know that she polled 33% votes in 2006 elections whereas DMK polled 27%. Even when the major political parties are so divided on the subject, whatever gave you the fancy idea that Karunanidhi and his supporters are spokespersons for “Tamils”?
“Diversity is not us sucking up to your ideas.”
And respecting “Tamil sentiment” is not sucking up to uncouth Karunanidhis and their thuggish party workers either.
“Its you and us respecting each others opinions and culture.”
Well, here’s my opinion of “Dravidian movement”: “a rabble-rousing political racket using scientifically and historically untenable claims (eg: Dravida vs Arya) as its ‘ideological’ basis to remain in businesss”. Respect that opinion, in the name of diversity.
And an opinion on Karunanidhi too: “rabble-rouser, opportunist, chauvinist, casteist, nepotist, and has lots at stake in terms of contracts awarded to his favorites in Sethu Samudram project”. Diveristy demands that you respect it.
I also have opinions on Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammed, , Periyar, Karl Marx, Chi Guevera, N Ram and a host of others, and I am sure you respect those opinions too.
But me — I give respect if something really commands my respect. You can’t blackmail me into giving it to you.
“But don’t force your beliefs on the vast majority of Tamils who are not great fans of Ram.”
It seems that you want to force *your* belief that you’ve read the minds of “vast majority of Tamils” on to your questioning critics.
On 09.27.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Balaji is a typical Dravidianist clown, this guy thinks he is the self appointed spokesman of Tamils when in reality he is just a nobody among Tamils, why doesn’t he refute Sandeep then instead of his long nonsensical rants?
On 09.27.07 Sangavaram Kristappa says:
Dear Balaji,
What is the meaning of your name? i wonder why your parents gave you your name(who’s avatar is ram) if he isn’t so popular in our state?. please speak for yourself and not for all our people.
On 09.27.07 socal says:
I remember the Ram Janmabhoomi temple movement receiving bricks for construction from all over the country including a huge chunk from Tamilnadu. That certainly doesn’t jive with the alleged Tamil sentiment being honked here.
Dravidian irrationalism remains a conundrum to me. They claim atheists et al. but then go on demanding Tamil poojas and disruption of agamas while keeping their secularism intact. Curious, isn’t it?
On 09.27.07 Jackson says:
Sandeep is selective and wrong.
Ram is not considered an Avatar in TN. Kambaramayanam is more a literary piece not a religious one. Kambar also deifies Sadayappa Vallal (a plain vellala chief who patronises him). It is not accepted as a religious piece by strong Vaishnavites due to this.
Perumal/ THirumal was a earlier Tamil God who got infused into Vishnu and later Avatars. The concept of Avatars is not for all HIndus. It is a Vaishnava concept that the supreme God can take human form. Tamil Vaishnavites even consider Tirumal and Mariyamman and brother-sister.
One way to settle this is: HOw many of Tamil People of Non-Brahmin, Non-Telugu castes have Ram as a Kula-deivam (clan/family god)? Not Perumal/Vishnu but Ram as a kula-deivam? This will settle the debate once and for all.
Ram does not evoke the same emotion as Murugan, Amman, Ayyanar or any of the local deities. This is a fact.
On 09.27.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“Ram is not considered an Avatar in TN.”
Did you take a survey?
Whether you consider Rama an avatar or not depends on what school of Hindu thought you follow.
Many Tamils are not Vaishnavas which is why many may not consider Rama an Avatar.
But please show us evidence of Ravana hero worship as the article claims.
On 09.27.07 tamilmannan says:
who is this moron balaji? you tombrom, since when did you become the chosen representative of tamils?
i consider ramar to be incarnation of the divine and he invokes the same feeling in me that murugan or any other deity may.
there is no ravana worship in TN, just empty unsubstantiated claims that are often thrown in our path.
On 09.27.07 Jackson says:
Harish,
Ravana is not worshipped .. That is for sure … I dont know who got the idea Ravana is/was worshipped.
But it is true that Ramayana was debated extensively by the Dravidian Movement intellectuals on the pros and cons of both sides and in effect the morals of it. THis has been twisted to claim that Ravana is worshipped.
I wanted to point out that the literary presence of someone did not mean the acceptance of that character as GOD/Avatar.
On 09.27.07 tamilmannan says:
here is truly where ravana is worshiped….
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=ca5c2572-a1a1-4ebb-9d59-99803e180f4d&ParentID=fe2f4394-73e9-41a0-a41a-a30d3ef2c6b3&&Headline=Where+Ravana+is+worshipped
“Ravangram, as it is called, is in Nateran tehsil and is some 40 km from Vidisha district headquarters. Some 5,000- 6,000 villagers are Kanyakubja Brahmins, a subsect in Brahmins, Ravana was believed to be from.”
ironically, those who worship ravana are brahmins from north india….
On 09.27.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“I wanted to point out that the literary presence of someone did not mean the acceptance of that character as GOD/Avatar.”
That is true.
But it must also be pointed out that a large number of Tamils are not Vaishnavas which explains why Rama is not as popular.
But besides the point about Aavatarhood, the other points made by Sandeep are very valid, for example it quotes a certain “Geeta” to claim Rama is not an emotive issue in south, who the hell is she & where are the supporting facts for her statement, I am agnostic but support the destruction of Babri and the rebuilding of the mandir there & yes I am from the South (AP).
Then “A.R.Venkatachalapathy” was quoted spewing something, what he claimed I have never heard in all my life.
On 09.27.07 Jackson says:
I agree. The media blew it out of proportion. I have never seen a Ravana statue or form being worshipped anywhere in the Tamil world.
Emotive or not … it is a personal issue down south in TN .. it is never politicised. But you never know what their true feelings are.
On 09.27.07 Kumar says:
>>Stop the FUD guys! You can worship Ram, bindaas. Nobody is stopping you. But don’t force your beliefs on the vast majority of Tamils who are not great fans of Ram.
Yeah… right. Allah-o-Akbar and St Thomas don’t command a huge following TN but you don’t see our politicians bindaas about taking them on? Or outlook for that matter?
Aren’t these same politicans who have Rama in their names like Rama in ‘Ambumani Ramadoss’? Or Rama in that idealogue’s name Ramaswamy Naicker? His freaking ‘Rama’ name carrying statue should be uprooted and dumped into Indian ocean too, no?
On 09.27.07 Balaji says:
I’m ignoring all the comments except Sandeep’s. The moment people attack me (Balaji, Tamil guy etc) instead of my views, I know I have nothing to say to them.
Sandeep,
>> Ironically, “Periyar’s” real name has Rama in it.
how is this relevant? his name was always E V Ramasamy Naicker. Periyar is just a honorary name given my his followers. Periyar means Elderly Person. For starters Karunanidhi changed his name from Dhaksinamurthi, Anbazhagan from Ramaiyya because they didn’t want to stick with names given by their Parents. Another politician Thirumavalan even changed his father’s name from Ramasamy to Tholkappian!!
>> It is interesting to note that not one folk form is named.
I agree they shud have mentioned a folk form. I would go to the extent of saying that I don’t know any such folk form either. But I know of “Ravana Kaviyam” a literary work by one Kuzhanthai (can’t rem the author’s name). Ravana Kaviyam was so controversial in Tamilnadu that the successive governments in the 50s and 60s banned it.
>> So why doesn’t Outlook scout for examples from the other side and mention Rama’s devotion to his parents, his Kingly qualities, his role as a monogamous husband in an age where polygamy was the norm, etc.
why? is this article about the correctness of Ramayan? Its about why the Dravidian movement hates Ramayan. Is it the job of the article to refute the views of the Dravidian movement?
>> If Rama beheaded Shambuka only because he was a Shudra (sic), why don’t the Dravidian champs mention Guha or Shabari who hailed from lower castes?
outlook says: “The beheading of Tadaka, the killing of Shambuka, the banishing of Sita etc were considered instances of Aryan racism and barbarity.” This could have used to counter the myth that Aryans were more civilized.
Is it not the job of others to counter Dravidian views? In anycase why do we have terms like Vanar Sena and Asuras to denote south indians in Ramayan? Anyway since you have raised it here, I’m giving you more evidence why Dravidians don’t like Ram. Note: for the sake of argument, I’m taking the supposed story of Ramayan as true.
1. Viswamithra takes Ram to kill Tadaka (lower caster, huh?). Ram didn’t find it bad to kill a girl though it wasn’t considered manly at that time. The characteristics of Tadaka are all given by Aryan authors who wrote Ramayan. The only thing we can learn here is Ram killed a woman called Tadaka (who may have even been bad).
2. There is this girl Surpanaka (dravidian, sister of Ravan) who tries to make a pass at Lakshman. Lakshman apparently cuts her nose off. Did Ravan take revenge for this insult to her sister by kidnapping Sita?
3. But suddenly the story changes. Ram needs the help of the Dravidians to trace Sita. Those who suck up to him are praised as Hanuman, Sukreevan etc. Those who don’t are killed hiding behind a tree (vali). For all their good virtues and generous help, the people of Kishkinta in Karnataka will still be called Monkeys.
4. People who abandoned Ravan like Vibhishan are praised while others are branded ‘asuras’.
5. Ram returns to Ayodhya. Prevents a so-called Shudra called Shambuka from doing penance. That is, as long as Shudras like Guha lick his boots, its ok for him. But when Shudras do unbecoming things like Penance, they’ll be killed.
6. Ram either fears or is embarrassed that Sita might have been raped by Ravan or his cohorts. So this male chavunist makes her take Agni-pariksha and despite her clearing that sends her to the forest.
Enough racism here, aint it?
>> So what then explains the overwhelming throngs at Bhadrachalam hailed as the Ayodhya of the South? What explains the spiritual significance assigned to the surroundings of Hampi, which is believed to be a camping place of Rama in his quest to rescue Sita?
because those south indians who bought the Aryan Idea are celebrating Ram. And others are tolerant enough to let them do so?
>> What also explains the fact that most of Thyagaraja’s Krithis are in praise of Lord Rama?
That he was a Telugu Brahmin. Telugu is more aryanized and sankritized than Tamil. That Brahmins are Aryans themselves or coverts to Aryanism?
>> So who defines this “historical sense?”
Historians?
>> And what are the other important Gods in the Hindu pantheon?
Murugan, Perumal, Varunan, Indran, Kottravai in the Tamil country. Shiva and Visnu in Harappa. Kali in Bengal. Animism in the North east. There are apparently 33 gods mentioned in the Vedas. Ram and Krishna are not among them.
>> All Hindus believe in the ten avatars of Lord Vishnu
YOU Hindus believe that. WE Hindus (I and those who concur with me) don’t.
>> In fact, contrary to what this Outlook eminence says, the Ramayana has a tale where Rama defeats the Kshatriya-vanquishing Brahmin Parashurama, the sixth avatar.
Believe me, most Tamils don’t give a damn about Parasuram either.
>> What’s interesting is that the article completely fails to mention that Ramanavami (to celebrate Rama’s birthday) is one of the major festivals in South India.
oh really? I bet most Tamils have never celebrated Ram Navami in their life.
>> So what are Venkatachalapathy’s credentials as a scholar on Rama?
That he a researcher at the Madras Institute of Development Studies.
>> What’s also amazing is this article fails to mention Karnataka and Andhra where you have an abundance of Rama temples.
bindaas! but compared to the zillion temples for Murugan, Shiva and Visnu we have in TN, the ones for Ram are ridiculously less.
>> And Naraka Chaturdashi (one of the festivals during the 3-day long Deepavali) is celebrated in Karnataka as well.
Ask any Tamil guy who you can meet, why Deepavali is celebrated in TN. He’ll say (funnily) because Krishna killed Narakasuran on that day. I myself don’t know why Deepavali is big in TN. It could be a recent phenomenon too. Mahavira supposedly died on Deepavali day. Jainism (called Samanam in Tamil) was a very significant religion in TN between 500 BC and 1000 AD. Roughly half of the medieval Tamil poets were Jains. In anycase Tamils burst crackers for Diwali and curiously during funerals. So are Tamils remembering Mahavira’s death then?
>> Kamban …who, again, is not a Brahmin and is a grand scholar of Sanskrit and an unabashed admirer of Valmiki,establishes that, for his bhaktas, Rama is the One who is the origin of all.
thats the problem. a convert to Aryan thought like Kamba should not be taken as representative of all Tamils.
>> Interestingly, the average Brahmin Outlook contacted is not as affronted by Karunanidhi’s remarks as his brethren in the rest of the country. For him, his own spin ritualistic worship of Rama and the DMK’s atheist approach have coexisted—for decades together.
I’m a Tamil Brahmin myself. I can point to a zillion Tamil Brahmins who have no problem with DMK’s portrayal of Ram as an Aryan God. For starters you can go ask a fellow Tamil Brahmin at Krishworld.com/politics. (I don’t agree with most of his views. I’m just giving an example). Alternatively you can go ask actor Kamal Hassan too!
>> If Ramayana is plain fiction, why the fuss about why Ram killed Shambuka or people of “lower castes?” Why dig up non-existent “facts” about how the “Aryan” Rama conquered the “Dravidian” South?
well they want to hit you with your own argument too. If you say Ramayan is true, then Ram was a racist aryan. If you say its a myth, why shud they worship your imagination? They have their own.
Personally I have no problem with people worshiping Ram as God. But I do believe he was an Aryan King who invaded the Tamil country.
On 09.27.07 Tamil Mannan says:
who is this moron balaji? you tombrom, since when did you become the chosen representative of tamils?
i consider ramar to be incarnation of the divine and he invokes the same feeling in me that murugan or any other deity may.
there is no ravana worship in TN, just empty unsubstantiated claims that are often thrown in our path.
On 09.27.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“But I do believe he was an Aryan King who invaded the Tamil country.”
Evidence you clown or haven’t you heard of such a word yet?
On 09.27.07 Jackson says:
I agree with Balaji. Most Tamils who have studied Tamil Society in depth and educated Tamils would concur.
On 09.27.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“Enough racism here, aint it?”
lol i guess all that time in the circus has screwed up ur head and turned it into a mush. Nothing you cited proves racism, it’s another matter your retarded brain cannot understand it.
On 09.28.07 Anon says:
Jackson, Balaji,
Why not start a “freedom movement” for a separate country, “Tamilastan?” You people are so unhappy living side by side with other Indians? Or find a deserted island in “Tamilian Ocean” since you people might object to the name “Indian ocean” and settle there away from all the stinky Aryans? It is such a sad state of affairs.Instead of reading all this carp, its productive to watch Indian Idol. At least this “hindi” again you people will object, program is letting people forget their regional differences and celebrating the “Indian” Prashant Tamang’s win. THEY ARE NOT SPITTING VENOM LIKE YOU TWO ARE DOING. aND SEE THE STUPIDITY. yOU WON’T OBJECT PEOPLE WORSHIPING RAMA? WOW! As if we need YOUR PERMISSION!!!!
On 09.28.07 an1 says:
balaji/jackson,
nobody is asking tamilians to worship lord ram. just
stop calling him a drunkard; stop insulting him…it’s a matter of basic courtesy which you owe your fellow indians most of whom regard him as a divine figure.
the aryan invasion theory has been thoroughly debunked by current historians/academics, but you guys still choose to believe it; making your racially separate from rest of india for some bizzare reason. as for you balaji a tambrahm spouting that descredited theory….two words stockholm syndrome.
as for most tamilians agreeing with karuna’s views, you are wrong there. jaya who is the most astute southern politician is starting a statewide campaign against the blasphemy; she would not have proceeded without first gauging the emotional mood of the tamil people.
as for the ram sethu, there are 4 other possible alignments(read current issue of india today) approved by jaya/nda/vhp which builds the canal and doesn’t damage the setu. but the pathological hatred of ram has led karuna to choose the 5th alternative which explicitly destroys the setu. kalam in his interview with IE kept using the word thorium reactor — the most important nuclear fuel india has. the next tsunami which occurs not only will kill a whole lot more keralities but will also destroy all of india’s thorium reserves.
anyway you look at it…this is a total mess dmk has created
On 09.28.07 Palahalli says:
Anon, so anybody disagreeing with the “Hindutva” bunch should seek a seperate homeland.
Then why crib when some people actually do?
“Regional differences” are not always bad or wrong. Most times, a proper appreciation of it lends greater strength to national unity than spurious “mainstream” Nationalism.
My own family is pretty religious and some can even be termed “Rama bhaktas”. I have also been witness to the sharpest debates around Rama’s morality amongst them. I am sure this is not all that unique a phenomenon.
For all the anti-Muslim/Islam venom that is spewed here..I am much impressed by this “Islamic” devotion to Rama
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Palahalli trolls like you should thank yourself that there is no “Islamic” devotion to Rama because if there was you and the Tambram clown Balaji & the senile git Karunanidhi woule by now be dead for blasphemy or made to flee for their lives.
The last time I checked if you question Muhammad’s morality you get in serious trouble but you yourself admitted that there are sharp debates about Rama’s morality and yet compare it to “Islamic” devotion, like I always say I think Gangaram & Muniandi Chinnadurai should learn something from Mustafa on how to deal with clowns like you, Balaji & nidhi, since Hindus are being accused of “Islamic devotion” we might as well show you idiots some real “Islamic devotion”.
On 09.28.07 Palahalli says:
Harish: Simply amused at how you speak for all “Hindus”. Yet you ask Balaji for survey results
As for the rest of your spout….we will see when your kinda “Hindus” finally get around to it.
On the debate here…this is no “sharp” debate on Rama. This is accusing Balaji and Jackson of being anti-national.
Womder who the clown is…
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“Womder who the clown is… ”
the clown is someone who has no life except post reams n reams of rubbish on every topic (that’s a hint) & one who keeps talking about Rama being “Aryan” while providing no evidence.
Why should we debate about Rama’s morality, cuz clowns like you say so?
“As for the rest of your spout….we will see when your kinda “Hindus” finally get around to it.”
hmm wonder why you don’t say “Muslims”, i doubt u will be there to “see” anything if Hindus get around to it, you might be hiding behind your mama’s sari when Gangaram shows up at your house.
Balaji is a mental retard & that’s obvious, if you feel for him so much then start providing evidence for Rama being an “Aryan” who invaded “Dravidian” land.
On 09.28.07 tamilmannan says:
jakson thurai is a sock-puppet of bolojee.
are you so desperate that you have to create multiple identities to make a worthless point?
first explain to us why ravana was actually a TOMBROM like yourself and called himself an ARYAN????
“I’m a Tamil Brahmin myself.”
you think i care? you think by sucking DMK dick, they’re gonna stop harassing you cowardly losers? of course tombroms dont have any qualms saying rama is an ORYON god because they have some stupid self-conceived notions of superiority which are going to get crushed very soon.
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Actually Palahalli’s response to Dhotiwala Gangaram would probably be “dish ish not kool yaaaaar” while wetting his pants.
Remember that senile git Karunanidhi’s melodramatic cries of “they r killin me” when Jaya had that coward arrested, well our comrades here r of a similar mould, they spout rubbish about Hindus since they can get away with it but ask them to show spine towards Muslim extremism they will convert the public space around them into a public urinal within seconds.
On 09.28.07 tamilmannan says:
so we see, ravana is from the “Vedic Pulastya clan and is competent to perform Vedic ritual” and is as dark-skinned as rama and declares himself to be an “Arya”. so essentially, this ain’t a racial war as claimed by tombrom morons like bolojee and dmk nutters like karunainidhi.
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
hehe! when you are done branding me as anti-national, please go and attack this blogger from India’s neighboring country (no pun intended!) called Arunachal Pradesh. He too seems to have issues with you “Hindu missionaries”.
On 09.28.07 Palahalli says:
“Why should we debate about Rama’s morality, cuz clowns like you say so?” - You really couldn’t…even if you tried
While your on Karunanidhi’s cries…try and remember that the Kanchi seer was not overly brave too…while being “felicitated” by the same Jayaa.
So, if you have nothing worthwhile….please sleep.
Balaji- Thanks for that useful link. We have some brothers here who speak of “chinkis”. This will educate them further.
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Balaji still waitin for evidence about Rama being Aryan or you too chicken to provide evidence?
Palahalli as if u have anything worth to say, your long boring and nonsensical posts is what puts me to sleep, neway when r u gonna stop hiding behind mama’s sari & wetting ur pants wenever u see Mustafa walking by?
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
>> Ironically, “Periyar’s” real name has Rama in it.
how is this relevant? his name was always E V Ramasamy Naicker. Periyar is just a honorary name given my his followers. Periyar means Elderly Person. For starters Karunanidhi changed his name from Dhaksinamurthi, Anbazhagan from Ramaiyya because they didn’t want to stick with names given by their Parents. Another politician Thirumavalan even changed his father’s name from Ramasamy to Tholkappian!!
Exactly my point. Why didn’t EVR drop Rama from his name like Kurananidhi? Was he a hypocrite?
Or was Kurananidhi one for accepting Rama in ’70s affidavit of his?
Ravana Kaviyam was so controversial in Tamilnadu that the successive governments in the 50s and 60s banned it.
But Kurananidhi is big fan of Ravana - his own words from ‘98/’99 are on Rediff website. Check it out.
Viswamithra takes Ram to kill Tadaka (lower caster, huh?).
But Rama killed brahaman too - Ravan. And he ate berries masticated by a low caste Shabri too? And he dined with ‘low-caste’ ferry people across Ganges. I could go on.
How does this fit into your caste based interpolations of Rama?
Did Ravan take revenge for this insult to her sister by kidnapping Sita?
Or was Surpanaka edging for a battle give the fact Vevididthi spured her brothers advances?
Ram needs the help of the Dravidians to trace Sita.
So if Dravidians helped your aryan Rama, what’s the problem?
People who abandoned Ravan like Vibhishan are praised while others are branded ‘asuras’.
People who stand for Dharma are indeed praised. And Rama atoned at Ramaeshwaram for killing Ravan too.
If Ravan was a dark skinned Dravidian, why did Rama leave Lanka in hands of another dark skinned Dravidian - his brother Vibishan?
That is, as long as Shudras like Guha lick his boots, its ok for him
Even his own brother Bharat kept Rama’s shoes on his head all the way to Ayodhya and then on throne.
You can do better than this cheap shot.
So this male chavunist makes her take Agni-pariksha and despite her clearing that sends her to the forest.
There’s a Roman term about Ceaser’s wife being beyond suspicion. Probabily EVR time travelled and taught Ceaser his selective nitpickings of Ramayana. Let’s not get into immaculate conception or how 16 wife of peace-be-upon-him.
Telugu is more aryanized and sankritized than Tamil.
Reason EVR termed Tamil ‘barbaric’ and wanted English instead - the language of the really really true Aryans with caucasian genes?
There are apparently 33 gods mentioned in the Vedas. Ram and Krishna are not among them.
Which exact Veda are you talking about?
And Bhagdwat Gita, our most important book which is used on court rooms to swear upon? Any connection there?
YOU Hindus believe that. WE Hindus (I and those who concur with me) don’t.
There are different philosophies within (Chakarava is one) which is accepted in Hindu doctrine. And this is okay.
Believe me, most Tamils don’t give a damn about Parasuram either.
Believe you, because? How many temples of Parsuram are there in South India? And any figures on how many Tamils boycott it?
really? I bet most Tamils have never celebrated Ram Navami in their life.
Google “ramanavami”+”chennai” and see how many links to places and dates come up.
Till then we’ll have to take your claims with some buckets of that Palk Straits salt.
In anycase Tamils burst crackers for Diwali and curiously during funerals. So are Tamils remembering Mahavira’s death then?
You ought to ask them this next time you visit Chennai and catch some people bursting crakers. Hopefully you’ll still be hale and hearty to typing in the the answer.
can go ask a fellow Tamil Brahmin at Krishworld.com/politics
LOL. Should we ask Mani Shankar Iyer - hey he’s a IYER for crying out loud?
What about Ra(t) Ravishankar - another Tamil Brahmin?
If you say Ramayan is true, then Ram was a racist aryan. If you say its a myth, why shud they worship your imagination? They have their own.
Ok, let me sum it up - add some of the DMK logic from past month.
Rama is fiction - but he we are sure he is racist.
Don’t insult Ravana - he’s real, don’t ask me how he fought imaginary Rama.
Rama didn’t build the bridge because he didn’t exist and he didn’t build it.
Please Support Sethu Project because Rama himself called from it’s destruction.
North Indians are superstitious - our leader just wears yellow shawl to ward off evil Aryan eyes.
Others can add here.
But I do believe he was an Aryan King who invaded the Tamil country.
LOL.. that would be Lanka??? But cane we do. We are like this only man. Everyday when some thug kidnaps girls in Delhi or Mumbai or Chennai, cops don the aryan avatar of Rama and raid the goondas adda too. Sometimes even Dravidians are expected to help out - oooo the hardships one has to endure.
Sad Balaji, but the culture is prevalant all over the nation. World I might add.
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
hmm… why am I answering trolls like him?
Harish,
What do you know about Aryans? You think they are Nazis? For starters, I’m an Aryan myself!!
This is the story of the Aryans:
1. Aryans are Indians.
2. They have predominantly lived in north India (Gangetic plain) roughly from the time of the end of the Harappan civilization (3000 BC)
3. They were introduced to Sanskrit and Rig Veda by the nomads who came from Northwest India/Afghanistan/Persia. Sanskrit adopted the Devanagari script in India.
4. In the vedic age, people used to worship both devas and asuras. The vedic brahmins sided with devas (Indra, Maruti, Vayu et al) and the Zorastrians sided with Asuras. (Varuna/Mithra - Ahura Mazda) (Ahura = Asura). Ahura Mazda is worshiped by Parsis to this day in India (after they themselves were driven out of Persia to India by Muslims much later).
5. The earliest converts to Aryan thought were Indian Brahmins. They started taking converts and branded them as Kshtriya, Vaishya etc. Hence the varna system was introduced. Other native Indians, too ‘uncultured’ for Brahmins were branded as Shudras.
6. Aryans to spread their influence merged Indian and Vedic Gods. Indian Gods include Shiva (bull) and Visnu (Unicorn - Horse), Murugan etc. See the complete list in my previous comment above.
8. Aryans learnt about animal worship among other native Indians. Hence brought the Avatar concept starting with Fish, Pig, Tortoise etc for Visnu.
7. Aryans then started expanding to other parts of India. Rama who was a racist Aryan King from Ayodhya or its vicinity invaded the Tamil Country and Srilanka. (There is a parallel thought that, though the invasion is true, Rama may have be been an imaginary character.) This Rama as was custom then, declared himself to be an incarnation of Visnu. (Other examples are Gupta Kings of Angkor Wat in Cambodia, King Gyanendra of Nepal etc). This story was written as Ramayan by Valmiki (who almost certainly wrote it from already known fables)
8. Aryan religion which by now was at the clutches of Brahmins was shelled by the Carvakas (atheists), Buddha and Mahavira around 500 BC.
9. Aryans recovered by writing down lots of Philosophical work (which were known even before) into books. Hindu schools of thought like Samkhya, Yoga etc came into being.
10. Aryans introduced a mythical God called Krishna into the Mahabharatha story which was already common knowledge. Bhagwat Gita gave lot of Philosophical solidity to the Hindu-Aryan religion.
11. But this recovery was not eternal. Gupta’s who encouraged King-worship further weakened the Aryan religion by inadvertently stopping Philosophical advancement.
12. By 7th century onwards North-India stopped producing any meaningful work on religion. It came up with more Puranas and other bull-crap stories about Aryan gods like Ram and Krishna. However south india which was still multi-religious (Buddhism. Jainism, Saivism, Vaishnavism, Aryanism) continued to produce philosophical works by Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhvacharya etc. The bhakti-cult started in Tamil country by Aalwars and Nayanmars allowed all the people irrespective of their caste, access to Gods.
13. The Muslim invasion of north-India completely nullified any revival of Philospohical work in North India. To counter the Allah/Koran combination, Aryans embraced Ram/Ramayan. Mahabharatha which was much smarter than Ramayan because of its Philosophical content didn’t gain much popularity. Ramayan whose racist intent was by now reduced by branding south-indians as Vanar Sena, Ravan as Brahmin etc gained popularity even among the Shudras of North-India.
14. Following the lifting of Muslim/Christian rule over India, Hindus wanted to revive their religion. Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Iskcon etc contributed to this. But since their Philosophical strength was long lost, they could only resort to imposing dubious Gods like Rama on others. Hence they demolished the Babri Mosque (which may have been built on the birth place of King Rama) to assuage the hurt Hindu-Aryan pride.
15. To this day, Aryan onslaught on India’s other indigenous faiths continues in places like Tamilnadu and the North east.
Guess that explains an Aryan, then?
On 09.28.07 kaangeya says:
Hey Ho! Balaji, it’s fun to take your arguments apart. Given that you are steeped in the cheap and tawdry “culture” of DK/DMKism you have a long way to go before you talk sense. Of course you could become like MK and Veeramani and never rise above the punk state of existence. But then hope is what things are made of.
If you want to worship Rama do it (as I don’t). If you want to simply study his character as a part of the epic do it (as I do). If you want to trash him do it. But then be prepared to have your “arguments” shredded as I did to MSS Pandian and V. Geetha. If some people in TN sing about Rama and his message, you have no business preventing them from doing so. If the people in TN celebrate Rama you have no business preventing them from from their devotions. Mere yaar, this is India not Saudi arabia. Sabe? Now it doesn’t matter whether in TN one person observes Sri Rama Navami or 10 million do. All that matters is that a sampradaya exists. Now the people of TN will have a Rama Navami puja today, tomorrow they will begin to observe Santoshi Maa ki Vrat, and 20 years from now they will observe Kali Puja. Again, you have no business preventing any of this. Whether it is Satyanarayan Puja or Guru Parb or Jhule Lal Divas, or any other sampradaya. You can oppose and scream at the top of your lungs. That’s about it. This is a free country and the people are free to follow their faith or traditions in the ways they please. So all that talk about whether Ramaswamy or Rama-did-not-see-me are stupid, and all those reams of waste paper generated by the morons of MIDS is trash. There is a certain way in which Hindu sampradaya develops the idea of ishvara, and there will be 33 murtis today and 33 million murtis in a few years time. How Hindus choose to live and practice their traditions is no one’s business but their own. So all your jumping around like a headless chicken on this blog is to no avail.
Now let’s get to the interesting business of Dravidian vs. Aryan There is no such thing as Dravidian or Aryan culture. There are 1000s of distinct traditions. The term Dravidian itself is from Sanskrit. Funny isn’t it that a punk like MK should come up with a fiction out of whole cloth! MK and his fellow half-wits (ably assisted by chumps such as yourself) have come up with this fairy tale about the Dravidian vs. Aryan culture claiming Tamizh for themselves. The other day on Offstumped, I had written about how Annadurai and his flunkeis were kept out of the 1st International Tamizh Conference in the late ’60s as they had no scholarly record. Well things haven’t changed one bit. It is the same moronic mantra. Only now new jalras like yourself have arisen to carry on the proud tradition of verbal punks from the DMK. Go back to your rags and return for another trashing tomorrow. Indru Poi, NaaLai Vaa - a lovely song from Sampoorna Ramayanam suhng by CS Jayaraman
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
Kaangeya,
I had already told you that you have read no independent history at all. If you can refute my theory please do. I will be even glad to hear why I should be worshiping Ram instead of Murugan or just remain atheist like I’m now.
>> Now the people of TN will have a Rama Navami puja today, tomorrow they will begin to observe Santoshi Maa ki Vrat, and 20 years from now they will observe Kali Puja. Again, you have no business preventing any of this.
didn’t I say Aryanization of Tamilnadu continues to this day? This mindless subjugation of other faiths is eventually going to harm Indian religion. Today Hinduism claims to be represented by dubious Gods like Rama. How will such gods survive the challenge from Science and Abrahmic religions?
Diversity and the study of India’s indigenous religions will ultimately help the north-indians to understand their own religion.
WARNING: Unless you give me concrete points explaining why my views are wrong, I will not respond to you again.
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
Balaji:
If you can refute my theory please do.
Sorry, not only “refute”, an 2000 tons tanker can sail through it.
All answers provided to you here in the links provided, unlike you I won’t plagiarise work from others and waste bandwith on this blog.
Unmasking AIT
AIT debates 1
AIT Debates 2
kaangeya: The guy’s too deep in his own propoganda. A cursory look on Google gives over 70 pages of places with names and phone numbers where Ramanavmi is celebrated just in city of Chennai and he’s stating otherwise. There are freaking over two dozen major temples right in 100 km radius of Chennai dedicated to Ram/Vishu/Narayana/Venkatesh including only one in country having even Shatrugana and Bharat along with Lakshman and Sita as dieties and tells us otherwise.
I’ll recommend Balaji the Guneeslam devasthanam in TN - legend has it that it’s cure for delusions and helps clarity of mind. Even insanity is cured there - so it’s said. Oops… forgot he’s an atheist.
On 09.28.07 Oldtimer says:
Balaji seems to have perfected a polemic of putting on “offended” or holier-than-thou air to evade answering crucial points. When he is not doing this, he is belting out entire chapters from the Fundamentals of Dravida Philosophy, by that great scientist, EVK. It is noteworthy how those demand “scientific and historical” evidence for Ram Sethu are so superstitious and ahistorical when it comes to this Arya Dravida myth.
>>This is the story of the Aryans:
Nice cock and bull story. Is that what they teach in Dravida monasteries?
This is the story of Dravidians:
1. They never existed.
2. In the 19th century British came along and told some people in what today is called Tamilnadu that they were Drvidians. Then some of them started believing that they existed.
3. When Brits came to India, they found a remarkably ancient civilization still intact. They could not stomach this fact, because they were the rilers, and how could the subjects have a longer history of civilization than the rulers?
4. The British also needed to justify their occupation of India.
5. The British also needed to divide Indians into as many quarreling factions as they can so that their grip on the overall population remained firm.
6. Ergo, the Brits came up with a nice fairy tale called Aryan invasion. At its essence, it is a racist theory. Its central presumption is that all great prevaliling cultures are essentially the gifts of white people.
7. The Brits used this theory also to propagate the faith of white supremacists, ie, Christianity. In fact, Christianity is the political ideoilogy of white supremacists, while Islam is Arab imperialism. Both ideologies strived to subjugate Indians and Hindus.
8. The Brits recruited some willing allies in this enterprise, such as EVK Ramaswamy. (Note the Rama in his name that “Balaji” is way toooo squeamish to explain.) EVK never participated in the freedom struggle. He called himself ‘rationalsit’ etc, but he swallowed the propaganda of white racists hook line and sinker, never questioned it, never examined it, never asked evidence for it.
9. Even after all of this Dravida propagdanda, the notion of ‘Dravida’ remains confined to a few brainwashed people in what today is Tamilnadu, and never struck roots outside of that state.
10. In fact, people of Karnataka, Andhra etc resent the Dravida fanatics, for the latter’s fantastic claims that they are the givers of culture etc to these other regions. The Kaveri dispute is actually a manifestation of rebellion against Dravida bigotry, it is not really a Kannada - Tamil divide.
My ancentral home in Andhra is close to Tamilnadu border, and both Telugu and Tamil are spoken. (The village has a Hanuman temple). In fact, DMK routinely fields an MLA candidate from the area, and routinely loses. I saw the antics of Dravida “activists” first-hand. Not a pretty sight.
– Proudly Telugu, Hindu and Indian.
On 09.28.07 Oldtimer says:
By the way, when discussing the mythical Arya theory — a theory originally propounded by white supremacists and then adopted by their native recruits — we should not forget its contemporary ramifications.
Apart from the Dravida outfits, there are only three other entities who believe — or pretended to believe — in this myth:
1. Nazis/neoNazis: Hitler, the ultimate white supremacist, used the theory to murder millions.
2. Marxists: though not exactly on account of the theory, they massacred millions too. In fact, it has been meticulously documented that Communism is the biggest genocidal influence of 20th century.
3. Christian proselytizers: which is of course natural, since Christianity, despite its middle-east origins, became the political ideology of white supremacists. Many great massacres of middle ages, and the wiping out of entire civilizations (eg: Aztec, Inca) is the proud work of these proselytizers and racists.
The Indian dravidas seem to be in good company.
– Telugu, Hindu, and proudly Indian; neither Arya (who is that?) nor Dravida (who the eff is that?)
On 09.28.07 Oldtimer says:
>>I will be even glad to hear why I should be worshiping Ram instead of Murugan
There is utter confusion in “Balaji’s” mind. If he’d just discard tooth-fairy tales peddled by white supremacists for their own ends (eg: Arya vs Dravida), everything will be clear to him.
At our home we worship BOTH Murugan and Rama!
On 09.28.07 an1 says:
balaji/palahalli,
the classy thing about hindus is that they are liberal. all muslims claim that prophet mohammed was the perfect man, even ignoring his last marriage to a 9 year old. as for hindus they debate the virtues of their gods. i have personally seen very pious hindu women relatives, when talking about sita’s agneepreksha, saying “what rama did was wrong”.
so academics/authors debating ram is different than the chief minister of a state denigrating him.modi/mayawati have insulted muslims, but as chief ministers they would never insult thier deity allah. even if there is one parsi believer in UP, mayawati should not insult that parsi’s diety. this is a basic test which karuna has failed in. but it’s not surprising considering his history…after the polygamy marriage act was passed, he acquired illegally his other wives. he claims himself a communist and declares a net worth of 25cr before elections. while he is insulting ram, his wives are busy doing pooja at hanuman temples. but i clearly remember one incident which showed how weird these guys are…before the last state election results were announced all of karuna/maran family was parked in tirupati. the ndtv reported asked them the basic question “aren’t you guys atheists”. one relative replies with a straight face “yes we are atheists, but when we come to tirupati, we come as believers”. when i saw that, i burst out laughing…thinking — they do need to construct a few more mental hospitals in tamil nadu.
as for periyar, nothing revolutionary about him, carvaka atheist system existed in india 2500 years ago. but look at today, 1 in 4 names has ram in it and carvaka-who/what? — this will be the same fate for periyar and his philosophy. last year in mumbai, 1.5lakh ganapati idols were immersed; this year 2 lakh idols were immersed. as india becomes richer/more educated, it’s going to be like US(where 90%+ believe in god) rather than agnostic europe. politicians who ignore this trend will do so at their own peril…
On 09.28.07 ramesh says:
sandeep its good that u have so logically rebutted that piece of bullshit carried by outlook. This article by outlook is some thing typical of the romila thapar / marxist / jnu tradition. Loads of verbage to confuse the issue. and by the way: valmiki himself was from a “lower caste”. And rama has been and is the guarding deity of various dynasties in India & elsewhere (the rama title of the kings of thailand is one instance).
On 09.28.07 kaangeya says:
Balaji,
Your laundry list of laughable assertions displays a IQ of around 74.5. Your categorisation of Aryans is Nazi-like in the style of Julius Streicher the notorious “historian” of Nazi heritage. The sordid fetid ideology of Dravidianism is the companion of Nazism. Maoism, and Communism.
As for refuting your points, when you begin with an unscientific premise, your entire line of thinking is undermined. So when you reify the idea of Aryan and tag an entire people with the term, you have already given up any pretensions to sane thought. Race is not a biological entity, in the sense that species is. You can distinguish people by their language, dietary habits, dress etc., but none of these have any biological significance. So stop blathering.
Coming back to Rama in Tamizh Naadu, tomorrow there will be 100s, 1000s and even millions of kovils to rama and Hanuman. You have no business and you can do nothing about it as long as the Indian Constitution remains in force. You can call it anything you want, but your petty snorts amount to nothing.
When I trashed MSS Pandian at a public forum many years ago I took him to task for advocating that the Kamba Ramayanam be banned, dubbing him an intolerant buffoon to his face. The Kamba Ramayanam isn’t to the taste of misogynist punks like MK who treat women like doormats.
This is a free country, not the DMK’s fiefdom, so get used to it.
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“What do you know about Aryans? You think they are Nazis? For starters, I’m an Aryan myself!!”
Balaji you wish you were the mythical “Oryon” but what you are is someone who is confused about who he is cuz of multiple daddies & his mommy don’t tell him who the real daddy is cuz she herself don’t know who he is, if ur mom comes into USA then get her on the Maury show & u will finally find out who it is, who knows it might even be the “Dravidian” known as Muniandi.
I asked you for evidence proving that Rama is “Aryan” and I am still waiting, all the realms of rubbish you posted has nothing to do with my question.
Where has your fellow clown Palahalli gone, is he cleaning up the mess he made last night when he saw Mustafa walk by?
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
Guys,
Why are you so bothered about Rama in Periyar’s name? He wasn’t talking to cheap commenters like you. He was talking to people who could see the logic in what he said, not whats his name, what caste he came from etc?
Yes, believe that British are responsible for all your evils. But when your religion (Aryanism) is long dead, you’ll be ruing the lost opportunities of the 20th/21st century.
For heaven sake go read the Bhagwad-Gita, Vedas, Upanishads, Samkhya etc than the bull-crap stories about Rama. Stories are meant for people who are not smart enough to understand Philosophy. I know north-India is among the most illiterate places on earth. But still atleast those who have gained some education should turn to Hindu Philosophy.
Kaangeya,
1. The race question is the most common mistake people make. Firstly the usage of the word ‘Aryan’ seems to confuse you. I have very clearly said Aryans are Indians and they didn’t come from anywhere. Aryan’s of India have nothing to do with Nazis except that both may have learnt Sanskrit, Vedas from Persia. There is an alternate theory which states Persia itself got it from India before it was recycled back to India. But linguists disagree that Sanskrit could be of Indian origin.
2. I’m talking about ‘Aryan thought’. Aryan Thought essentially means Brahmin Politics. When majority of the people are fearful or confused about God and a select few have access to information (either from education or contact with other civilizations), it leads to priest class. Brahmins (Aryanism), Rabbis (Judaism), Maggis (Zorastrianism) etc are examples of priest classes. Buddha, Mahavira, Jesus, Muhammad, Martin Luther were all fighting against priest classes. Aryanism in India is all about how Brahmins shaped Indian religion according to their whims and fancies. That Aryanism has always been challenged by others. But as the above moronic Rama fans show, Aryanism has simply addled their minds.
3. If you talk about Genetics, true there might be differences between north-Indians and the south-Indians. But I’m not stupid enough to claim north-Indians have different physical features because they came from Persia. North-India has always attracted foreigners. The Vedic Brahmins/Nomads from Persia, Greeks, Chinese (Huns - Kushans, Kanishka?), Mongols, Arabs, Turks, Afghans have all invaded/migrated to north-India. That itself would have given them genetic variety. Besides India is big enough that people might have genetic differences anyway. Afterall Aryans knew genetics all too well. The Gothra system (which is meaningless in modern India) was an amazing way to prevent self-breeding and genetic mutilation.
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“Why are you so bothered about Rama in Periyar’s name? He wasn’t talking to cheap commenters like you. He was talking to people who could see the logic in what he said, not whats his name, what caste he came from etc?”
oops logic & EVR, i failed to see any logic there, maybe only mental retards can do so thanks to their special condition.
i am still waiting “oryon” balaji for evidence proving that Rama was Aryan.
On 09.28.07 socal says:
B says,
“Why are you so bothered about Rama in Periyar’s name?”
Actually it should be the Dravidians to be bothered by the ‘Ram’ in Naicker’s name. Since Periyar believed in Aryan invasion, Rama being Aryan and all that the question naturally arises as to why he will carry that colonizing symbol as his name? Being a so-called rationalist he shouldn’t have had problem with changing the name — what’s in a name etc.
Certainly he was not for Aryan-Dravidian syncretism. Any arch dravidist gotta ask - why their god Periyar was so pussilanimous as to carry the most celebrated symbol of aryan invasion, and why should they put the same in every corner of Tamilstan.
On 09.28.07 socal says:
Kumar, great job in #37. Very cogent.
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
Oh boy…. the guy keeps coming back for more. Thought his visarjan was done by now.
It’s true when they say that atheist is worst type of fundamentalists.
Balaji: It’s said that it’s better to keep mouth shut and be considered a fool than open it and remove all doubts. Keep ranting away.
On 09.28.07 socal says:
Btw Ravan was a Brahmin, an Aryan himself, ruling Dravidstan. Besides Rama was a Kshatriya - lower caste compared to Ravan. Perhaps dravidian voodoo rationale isn’t bothered by such inconvenient facts.
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
Socal:
Actually it should be the Dravidians to be bothered by the ‘Ram’ in Naicker’s name. Since Periyar believed in Aryan invasion, Rama being Aryan and all that the question naturally arises as to why he will carry that colonizing symbol as his name?
Periyar himself was against statues and idols. And guess what Balaji’s mentors in DMK did. Build a huge statue of EVR smack in front of a landmark Hindu temple!!!
Forget Rama, as if names of local names aren’t good enough MK names his son after mass murderer Stalin - even Russians have given up on this name. Just like Austrians/Germans don’t name their kids after Hitler.
On 09.28.07 an1 says:
balaji,
your last post-49 seemed far more reasonable than your earlier rantings….but still, you display all the characteristics of tambrahm: a surplus of intelligence and a deficit of commmon sense. just to rebut a few of your points:
rajaji, the great translator of a ramayan, was outright casteist brahmin: 21/22 original cabinet members of madras state were brahmin and forcing school students to learn their ancestral job was also casteist. but that was in 1950’s dude…do you know how much has changed in india because of reservation policy, vhp stance against casteism, etc. mayawati called brahmins to come to dalit basti’s for brahmin samaj…they came to listen to her and vote her into power. in each of the indian states, the old forward caste hegemony has been replaced by obc/dalit hegemony(from jagannath mishra to laloo/modi/maya). talking of brahmin conspiracy in 2007, is like those stupid lucknow people who beat up the british tourists visiting 1857 sites…
the other point about not believing in fairy tales of rama and ganapati, but instead focusing exclusively on the ethics/philosophy of hinduism, my answer is simple: who the hell made you/dmk god? tell the christians to not believe in “virgin” mary but only discuss/debate sermon of the mount and see what violent reaction you get from them.
as for the totally unnecessary comments on illiterate north indians(most of your critics are from ap/mumbai/tn/bangalore). but look how the tamilians have behaved in the last week: the cm calls ram a drunkard(a clear violation of ipc 295a blasphemy law); vhp leader “supposedly” announces a fatwa(no proof of it); bjp leaders center/state condemned the fatwa instantly; but regardless the dmk state ministers ransack the bjp office and beat up everybody in front of the media. and now a day long illegal bandh to protest a fatwa which vhp leader is continuously denying he has made. it’s absolute jungle raj in tamil nadu…
but one piece of good news today though in IE : baalu has agreed to parliamentary review of alternative canal routes; 80 crore hindus vs 10 lakh periyar supporters…defeated was pre-ordained for you guys.
On 09.28.07 Gaurav says:
Evidence suggests that Balaji has been molested by Krish. Of course it was all in Platonic spirit.
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
an1,
>> rajaji, the great translator of a ramayan, was outright casteist brahmin: 21/22 original cabinet members of madras state were brahmin and forcing school students to learn their ancestral job was also casteist.
I have already criticized Rajaji in a post in nationalinterest.in. The other commenter Kaangeya was only referring to that.
>> but that was in 1950’s dude…do you know how much has changed in india because of reservation policy, vhp stance against casteism, etc. mayawati called brahmins to come to dalit basti’s for brahmin samaj…they came to listen to her and vote her into power. in each of the indian states, the old forward caste hegemony has been replaced by obc/dalit hegemony(from jagannath mishra to laloo/modi/maya). talking of brahmin conspiracy in 2007, is like those stupid lucknow people who beat up the british tourists visiting 1857 sites…
thats the problem guys. we achieved such social reforms some 70 years ago because of the Dravidian movement. We have had reservations from 1931. Tamil Brahmins have also broken the shackles many decades ago. Brahmins like Ramanuja (12th century) and Subramaniya Bharati (1882-1921) rejected Aryanism and made religion/God available to all castes. The so-called Lower castes of TN are long past the achieving political power (mayavati etc) stage. Lower castes are today the drivers of Tamilnadu’s economy.
>> the other point about not believing in fairy tales of rama and ganapati, but instead focusing exclusively on the ethics/philosophy of hinduism, my answer is simple: who the hell made you/dmk god? tell the christians to not believe in “virgin” mary but only discuss/debate sermon of the mount and see what violent reaction you get from them.
if a Christian asks me I will definitely ask him/her “why are you claiming Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus? Does it not unnecessarily question the chastity of Mary?” But Christian beliefs are not plaguing India. Its the utter bankruptcy of the Aryan religion that is ruining India.
>> as for the totally unnecessary comments on illiterate north indians(most of your critics are from ap/mumbai/tn/bangalore).
how does it matter? as long as people worship Rama, people are not gonna realize whats wrong with them. These morons are worshiping that Aryan Kshtriya racist King Rama, because Rama and his Brahmin stooges made people do so.
>> but look how the tamilians have behaved in the last week:
you are a moron, so I will remain one too is a great way to success, yes. why am I the defender of all Tamils? I’m not. But vast majority of Tamils have learned a lot from the Dravidian movement. We are the better for it.
India cannot wait for North-Indians to learn at their leisurely pace. The least you could do is learn from our experiments with religion/caste/philosophy/economy. While you northies whine away, Tamils/South Indians have for over 2000 years gleefully embraced the meaningful contributions from Aryans. Didn’t Sankara master the Vedas and add a further zillion contributions to Aryan thought?
On 09.28.07 badindianmofo says:
Palahalli can be quite a tenacious entertainer. He ever so easily slips in the assertion that ‘Hindu’ Aryan Brahmins have some of a monoploy over racism/prejudice aimed at people from the North-East. Yes, that’s great analysis and logic. Behind all the sophistry, this is the real Palahalli. And let’s see, how many NE communities and tribes have been cleansed by Aryan Brahmin marauders? Do yourself a favour and stop being the clown’s advicate. Aryan cultural hegemony is apparently destroying the indigenous NE cultures. Yeah, right and what exactly is the church doing? Saving their savage, heathen souls of course. Kalaignar and his bunch pretend not to know that.
On 09.28.07 Gaurav says:
Being a blond Aryan I have a question for all anasa Dravidians present here.
I believe this self respect movement gained currency in late 30’s or early 40’s. Now
1. All these self respect proponents are rationalist, dripping with scientific spirit (because they say so)
2. All Tamizh Brahmins are oppressive misogynists steeped in superstition and religious dogma (again because atheist say so)
Considering the two “facts”, can someone please tell me, of all the scientists, philosophers, of note hailing from TamizhNadu how many belong to the former (i.e. rationalist atheist) group and how many to latter (misogynist superstitious and according to the “greatest scientist of ‘em all” Krish, inbred Tamizh Brahmins)
PS. I believe the Dravidians (as opposed to Tamizh) should be deported to where they came from.
PPS. Of course we all know that Aryans were unwashed tribesmen from steppes who destroyed the unparalleled culture created single handedly by Kalaignar
On 09.28.07 Gaurav says:
Sandeep got my comment condemned to moderation queue
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
One more flip-flop from our blothe-raho-blathering-balaji:
Brahmins like Ramanuja (12th century) and Subramaniya Bharati (1882-1921) rejected Aryanism
Err… Ramanjua was a Vaishanava saint right? Glad to note that you have heard of him. And acknowledge his existence going back to 12 century. So, how come yesterday you mentioned that Rama and Vishnu are hardly worshipped in TN?
Come on now… don’t let your dravidian upbrining stop you from coming clean at least once on this thread.
On 09.28.07 socal says:
>> So why doesn’t Outlook scout for examples from the other side and mention Rama’s devotion to his parents, his Kingly qualities, his role as a monogamous husband in an age where polygamy was the norm, etc.
>>>>why? is this article about the correctness of Ramayan? Its about why the Dravidian movement hates Ramayan. Is it the job of the article to refute the views of the Dravidian movement?
~ No, but it certainly is the job of Outlook to question their views citing contrary examples, which Dravidianists might not want to talk about for fear of betraying their inconsistency. Clearly Dravidists cherrypick instances from Ramayana. Fair journalism would expect that such galling discrepancy be pointed out Outlook hack fails on this count in this instance.
>> If Ramayana is plain fiction, why the fuss about why Ram killed Shambuka or people of “lower castes?” Why dig up non-existent “facts” about how the “Aryan” Rama conquered the “Dravidian” South?
>>>well they want to hit you with your own argument too. If you say Ramayan is true, then Ram was a racist aryan. If you say its a myth, why shud they worship your imagination? They have their own.
Personally I have no problem with people worshiping Ram as God. But I do believe he was an Aryan King who invaded the Tamil country.
~ If indeed that’s the case then Dravidists aren’t good even at casuistry. If Dravidists doubt Ramayan, which they clearly do, then it is immaterial whether Ram was racist or not ( that he wasn’t is clear). What sort of rationalism is it when gets perplexed at a fictional character? In their zeal to get back at Aryans are not the dravidists undermining the central tenet of their own philosophy(if it can be called such!) which is what they should be more worried about. A single talking point cutting at their own roots — certainly not a good bargain for dravidists.
Shurpanakha didn’t seem to have problem communicating with LakshmaN. Either she must know Sanskrit or Lakshman must have known Tamil, which is surprising since even in modern times with all the education available, people have problem achieving that. Probably the literacy rate was very high in Tamilstan then, that it is now. Not only that, a significant Dravidists must have been adept at a foreign language, upon which their living was not dependent unlike today. Who is to be blamed for this Dravidian decadence then?
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
Kumar,
>> So, how come yesterday you mentioned that Rama and Vishnu are hardly worshipped in TN?
Did I say Tamils don’t worship Vishnu? Are you even literate to read my comments? We probably have more temples for Perumal (aka Visnu) than the rest of the world! But most Tamils have rejected the racist Aryan King Rama.
People like you don’t even know what wrong with you. This post by Sandeep is Rama for heaven’s sake. I’m saying Rama should not only be tortured but also crucified and permanently put to death for the sake of Hinduism and India.
On 09.28.07 socal says:
I forgot:
Dravidists should actually be celebrating Ram’s victory since He, a lower caste Kshatriya, not only defeated Ravan, an upper caste Brahmin, but he also caused a split in the Brahmin ranks by getting Vibhishan on his side. Instead, the Dravidists mourn at what could be the high point of Dravidian culture.
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
I know I’m wasting time on people like Kumar, Socal. Let it be my last response to trolls.
socal,
Outlook was merely reporting why Dravidians reject Ram and his Ramayan. You have no idea about Journalism at all.
>> if Dravidists doubt Ramayan, which they clearly do, then it is immaterial whether Ram was racist or not ( that he wasn’t is clear).
Dravidians have no doubt at all about Ramayan. If you say its a true story, then we have given a zillion examples why Ram was a racist Aryan King. If you say Ramayan was just a myth, it still is an allegory of the Aryan invasion of the south and hence more racist in content. Historians can be forgiven for reporting what happened in the past. But if an author can come up with an imaginary story of such racist intent, it further explains why Aryanism was/is bad for the country.
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
Blathering balaji:
Your Post 20: Ram and Krishna are not among them.
Suffering from Alzheimers? Or they DMK buggers wash their brains along with their hair every morning?
We probably have more temples for Perumal (aka Visnu) than the rest of the world! But most Tamils have rejected the racist Aryan King Rama.
Ho ho ho ho.. it’s not even funny. Check the revenue and attendance figures of temple in question. It’s next only to Tirupati in AP beating even Guruvayour and Sabarimala. So much for your “tamils rejecting …”
I’m saying Rama should not only be tortured but also crucified and permanently put to death for the sake of Hinduism and India.
Crucification is a Christian concept. Not even one athesits or the followers of Chakrava philosophy was ever killed for his atheism. But your tolerance towards other religions/cultures stands exposed. It’s funny that even CPI(M) and Hurriyats came out against your DMK boss on this Rama issue.
You are indeed some piece of work.
Don’t worry about Hinduism since you are a self-confessed atheist, let us worship who we want to.
And for India, don’t blather about our concerns, you are indeed in the mold of EVR who patronized Colonial masters and Jinnaha.
On 09.28.07 Kumar says:
Bol-bol-bol jhut bol balaji: You have no idea about Journalism at all.
Maybe not. But a lot more than you. If you were a journalist, we’d be handing out Pulitzers to people like Jayson Blair.
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Why are people entertaining this clown, let him take his sorry “oryon” ass down to the local KKK meet & see how much of an “oryon” they think he is.
The mental retard (nor his fellow clown Palahalli) still hasn’t answered my question, but think they are “rationalist”, the whole Dravidianist clan have IQ’a less than african ape’s, they will make good circus animals.
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
shit, why am I still here?!!
Kumar,
I’m as atheist as Carvakas, Buddha, Mahavira, Sankara, Nehru etc were. Atheism is a concept way beyond the grasp of uneducated [degree = qualification, not education] people like you. When you can’t even understand religion, how will you understand God (or rather that there is no God!)?
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“it still is an allegory of the Aryan invasion of the south and hence more racist in content.”
But you have to first prove that it’s “an allegory of the Aryan invasion of the south” retard or does ur “rationalist” brain fail to comprehend simple logic?
On 09.28.07 Harish Duggirala says:
“Atheism is a concept way beyond the grasp of uneducated [degree = qualification, not education] people like you. When you can’t even understand religion, how will you understand God (or rather that there is no God!)?”
oops & you are educated in what clown, doing circus tricks on the net?
balaji stop praising yourself, that’s the sign of a loser & start providing evidence for your assertions.
On 09.28.07 an1 says:
balaji,
“utter bankruptcy of the aryan religion is ruining india” — that seems to be your main objection to hinduism/rama-worship. the fastest growth rate of all indian states in last decade has been gujarat; which is even more amazing considering it already has the highest per-capita income. please go there and insult lord ram;you probably will get your nose broken. the abject poverty in india is simply because of nehru-gandhi years. take the 40 years of their rule with 3% socialistic growth and replace it with 8% growth and india right now would be a middle income country with no trace of abject poverty. what ruined india are incompetent politicians. look at bihar which went from a stable state to utter chaos under lalu’s rule. tn is rich state(behind punjab/gujarat/delhi though and last 10 years it’s economic growth is averaging around 7% vs delhi/gujarat’s 12%+) — because of kamraj’s great rule and subsequent rulers have not totally messed it up;periyar’s philosophy has little to do with it. more likely the anti-brahmin policies followed by the tn government resulting in mass exodus of the brilliant brahmins hindered even greater success tn could have achieved.
as a marathi mumbaikar, i do feel offended when you say india is being ruined because i worship ram/ganapati. but that’s your right — alot of my friends have crackpot views like yours and they are my friends regardless. my main objection is to what an elected cm is doing which is anti-national(threat to thorium reserves), anti-other-states(kerala), anti-hindu(insulting lord ram), anti-law-order(ransacking offices), etc — making the state a laughing stock of all the other states. as for “outlook magazine”, it’s the most screwed up magazine in india…just one example: while rest of india was championing kalam for a second term, outlook was calling “scamster” patil a decent choice. it is so horrible that i wanted to use it for toilet paper, but my poop objected….
what i believe is that india is progressing well and will make even more progress with better/more competent rulers. 30 years from now india will be a economic/military/spiritual superpower; and 75%+ of the population will still be saying “jai shri ram”.
On 09.28.07 Palahalli says:
badindianmofo :
- So, you are agreed that “mainstream Hinduism” is a threat to the Arunachali’s culture as the website says? I guess you would have taken this in better spirit if I had also taken the missionaries to task.
On 09.28.07 Balaji says:
an1,
>> that seems to be your main objection to hinduism/rama-worship.
indeed I’m scared that this mindless Ram worship will irrevocably damage India’s spiritual advancement.
>> 30 years from now india will be a economic/military/spiritual superpower; and 75%+ of the population will still be saying “jai shri ram”.
and yet they would have made no spiritual advancement at all. the funny thing is rest of the world is eagerly reading Indian Philosophy. Smart people in India are also benefiting from it. but vast majority of Indians are starved of the knowledge generated by their own forefathers, because they continue to worship false gods like Rama. Spiritual poverty is as worse as economic poverty.
>> the fastest growth rate of all indian states in last decade has been gujarat;
I’m happy that Gujarat is making progress. That is indicated by its GDP size not just its growth rate. As economies grow bigger, they cannot grow at 10% rates. (yeah, China is an exception, but even they are talking about hard or smooth landing now). Even in Gujarat, they have movements like the Swaminarayan sect, Jain temples etc. That adds philosophy to their religion. And Gujarat still needs to progress on social issues. Patil domination of its politics is not good for Gujarat. (I know Gujarat is making progress in this direction too).
So guys, let me stop here. The next time you find Ramayan and Bhagwad-Gita, throw the former in the dust bin and read Bhagwad-Gita instead.
On 09.29.07 Anonymous says:
>> “The next time you find Ramayan and Bhagwad-Gita, throw the former in the dust bin and read Bhagwad-Gita instead.”…
throw Ramayan? Say this about Koran/ Bible and you have grand prize awaiting dude…
Folks,
Please don’t waste your time and energy on people like these…trust me they are not worth it…
Let them claim that “we” are afraid of “debating” them… it does not matter… what they say… we are not obliged to “debate”… or counter…
They are here for pure fun. They will keep poking coz either they have a job reservations and/or a union who’s backing them and hence they have lot of time on their hands and are not worried of being laid off or they are simply unemployed and Rahul Baba has just provided them means to get a job without skills…
Let them believe that they are the most intelligent debaters in the world. Again, a fool will always convince himself that he is brilliant and live with that forever.
Follow a simple rule - if the fool comes back again and again with same point, googles some links and sugar coats his argument with some good English, don’t fall in the trap. Don’t respond. Debating is Left wings favourite pastime. Remember that. Keep West Bengal in front of you and see who ruled that state for 30+ years and what happened of that poor state.
JNU is the manufacturing hub of these idiots. And to be fair they know English enough to present themselves as reasonable lot. But their agenda is to create a stir in the blogging community.
Let them not have the satisfaction of creating a stir on such forum.
JUST IGNORE. Behave as if they don’t exist. They have enough blogs to send in their views. They should visit the bleeding hearts (D’souza, Verma..et al). But they don’t. They come here. So don’t worry about them. They want us to hear them and are desperate.
Remember, even if they were honest and well meaning people (which they are not) it’s always difficult to convince a donkey that he is one. He is hard wired to believe what he wants to. So wasting time on such people is infact being unfair your ourself.
When debate goes into…”I said xyz in comment 20″ and “you said…pqr..in comment 41″… you know it’s a jalebi. Have one or two jalebis and thats it.. don’t ruin your health.
On 09.29.07 Anon says:
Balaji
“So guys, let me stop here. The next time you find Ramayan and Bhagwad-Gita, throw the former in the dust bin and read Bhagwad-Gita instead.”
>>>>
PLEASE don’t stop here. Just tell us, the lesser North Indians, what to eat in the breakfast, how to sleep, what dress to wear, what sports to watch and play, what movies to watch and in which language, what songs to hear, in which language we should greet our elders… that’s what Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, VHP keep telling us. We can deal with Southies too.
On 09.29.07 Anon says:
Balaji
“So guys, let me stop here. The next time you find Ramayan and Bhagwad-Gita, throw the former in the dust bin and read Bhagwad-Gita instead.”
>>>>
PLEASE don’t forget to tell us, who gave you the authority to tell us what to read and what not? Are you a religious guru? some swami? or ????
On 09.29.07 Anon says:
They are here for pure fun. They will keep poking coz either they have a job reservations and/or a union who’s backing them and hence they have lot of time on their hands and are not worried of being laid off or they are simply unemployed and Rahul Baba (here also he showed mental bankruptcy, he just usurped Manmohan Singh’s agenda. Read this tommy Manmohan singh’s independence day speech) has just provided them means to get a job without skills…
>>>>
100% right.
On 09.29.07 Kumar says:
Folks, have pity on the guy. The bugger’s been carrying the Aryan racists name like Balaji all his life could be source of all his sorrow in this blog. Or probabily he’s product of some Aryan lust. It’s the only reason I can think of his hatred towards Hindus. How else can you explain his low self esteem?
On 09.29.07 Kumar says:
Balaji:
Sorry can’t help poke holes in your theories,
if a Christian asks me I will definitely ask him/her “why are you claiming Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus? Does it not unnecessarily question the chastity of Mary?”
You really have balls to say that to Christian??
Let’s try an experiment taking a page out of your dravidian boss’ book. I see you have a link on your blog to Indianmuslims site. Go there and ask them if Mohd had some aeronautical engineering degree to take off towards heaven from Al Aqsa’s dome.
Do let us know if you post it there with a link.
Let’s see you put money where your mouth is, that would be your posterior (since you are speaking a lot from your behind)
On 09.29.07 Balaji says:
>> Mohd had some aeronautical engineering degree to take off towards heaven from Al Aqsa’s dome.
I don’t believe Mohd went anywhere when he died. Why should I go tell this to Muslims unless they ask my opinion? Are Muslim beliefs standing in the way of India’s development? If they are standing in the way of Palestine’s development, its their problem. Is this post by Sandeep on Rama or Mohd? Why would I be bitching about Ram if north-Indians had not used their blind beliefs to stop a project in my state?
On 09.29.07 kaangeya says:
Indeed I’m scared that this mindless Ram worship will irrevocably damage India’s spiritual advancement.
Balaji, not your business. Neither you nor those who wear the boots you lick, can do anything about it. India’s living traditions are too vast for nutter like you. If anything it is the great intellectual traditions of India that have kept us together. Rama is a matter of choice. And we know you don’t have the guts (and neither does MK) to take on the beliefs of others.
Sandeep,
Time to move on? Today in The Hindu there is an article by ignoramus extraordinary - Romila Thapar. How about having a essay/fiskay competition on the article?
On 09.29.07 Anon says:
Balaji,
Why would I be bitching about Ram if north-Indians had not used their blind beliefs to stop a project in my state?
>>>>>
So you were just bitching. Great. Now another batch is ready to be bitched by you. They are from your neighbouring state. Not from the Northies.
A report released by CISSA here said the project had the potential to trigger a series of ecological catastrophes along the Indian coast in the long run. It warned that the environmental impact of the project during the construction and operational phases would be immense.
Now PLEASE start bitching about these scientists, environmentalists, ecologists and marine scientists.
Actually money siphoned off from the project would be too much not to start bitching about scientific community. DMK will start that too, soon and you will follow suit.
I thought bitching was the forte of females.
On 09.29.07 Harish Duggirala says:
Balaji you clown 13% of Indians are Muslims and last time I checked their beliefs were hampering India’s “progress”, check what happened to Taslima you clown, do you also suffer from the same syndrome as Palahalli (i.e pissing in ur pants when Mustafa walks by)?
Dravidianists are total cowards & u r a prime example.
On 09.29.07 Balaji says:
People who are so interested to know when and how I have attacked Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs etc can go and read here. If I haven’t criticized anyone when they should have been, then it merely indicates that I was too busy doing something else!
On 09.29.07 Kumar says:
I don’t believe Mohd went anywhere when he died.
Doesn’t matter what you think? Or I think. Muslims believe so and that’s what matters. End of story. That’s it.
And if you think otherwise, please come back and explain as to why disturbance at Al Aqsa mosque in ‘69 led to riots and deaths of over 1500 Indians.
Dude, can’t help you if can’t get some basic facts straight.
Why should I go tell this to Muslims unless they ask my opinion?
And you think some here solicited your verbal diarreha?
On 09.29.07 Balaji says:
Muslims (not all) think the rest of the world is worshiping infidels and Satans. Christians (not all) think others have no way to salvation until the world embraces the Christ and only then their messiah will come again. Did Hindus feel perturbed by all this thinking of others? What matters is what we think. And if what we think makes any sense. Ram worship doesn’t make much sense. This post is about Rama and I thought Sandeep won’t mind my opinions on why Rama’s torture should continue if not inflate.
On 09.29.07 reason says:
>> What matters is what we think. And if what we think makes any sense.
So now an attempt at *inclusive diarrhea*. Do we suffer from delusional dissociative identify disorder, or do we always use the pluralis majestatis?
On 09.29.07 an1 says:
balaji,
in discussing gujarat you agreed that having vast majority of ram bakhts does not in anyway hinder it’s spectacular progress. but still you were partially right about this statement: “utter bankruptcy of the aryan religion is ruining india”. except the “aryan” religion part. in the next steps of your englightenment little buddha i will ask you to replace the word “aryan” with some other name. to find out the answer: solve these two zen koans 1>percentage in most prosperous/growing states vs stagnant/poor states a>south india: kerala(stagnant):30% vs tn north india: up/bihar:20%,assam/bengal:30% vs gujarat/delhi/haryana/punjab:instead of calling ram a drunkard, the senile one-eyed polygamist leader of yours had chosen to call the chief deity of this particular group by similar names how long do you think his life expectancy would have been?
both of the above questions are every tricky, mind you, incapable of being solved by the other posters…them being stupid hindu/ram believers. but since you are that “aryan atheist” who comes along once a millenia you should be able to figure it out…
On 09.29.07 Aditi Rao says:
Sure,excellent thanks PI for publishing it and kudos to Sandeep.
Aditi V Rao
On 09.29.07 Shuvro Aikath says:
All I can say is after spending most of an hour reading all this, Balaji makes perfect sense. But I’m not sure why he even borthered to reply to foolishness like this - “Mohd had some aeronautical engineering degree to take off towards heaven from Al Aqsa’s dome.”
Is that the level of debate on this site now?
I want everyone to know that I am barbarindian, finally over my cowardice and able to use my real name
On 09.29.07 Sri says:
There’s to be a lot of “you south indian”,”don’t advise us North Indians” etc etc.
Guys,just because of one fool Balaji,don’t turn this into a North-versus-south debate.common folk in the south are more reasonable and more believing-in-Ram than Balaji seems to suggest.
Cut the crap Balaji.
Stick to Bollywood and Hollywood (and Tollywood too)
On 09.29.07 MU says:
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_kishw_sitaram_frameset.htm
On 09.29.07 Kumar says:
Et tu Shurvo?
Why don’t you tell us as to what should be done with Ramayana? Put it in dust bin as advocated by ‘balaji’? And it makes sense to you that we have to believe Ramna navami is not celebrated in TN when facts are otherwise? Diwali being celerated to commemorate Mahavira’s death!! Can you even name one Hindu that does so!! And Guha ‘licked’ Rama’s shoes??
Perhaps there is a great north/south divide which I look forward to learning more about - on your blog perhaps.
“Mohd had some aeronautical engineering degree to take off towards heaven from Al Aqsa’s dome.”
Is that the level of debate on this site now?
Read my post again. It was put in reference to Balaji having balls to question belief’s other faiths. And given fact that 1500 Indians died on issue related to this - I could only say it’s a relevant question.
Personally if could care less if someone believed in splitting Red sea or walking on Sea of Gallie or taking direct shorthand notes from Angel Gabriel.
Debate level went down around post #20. It’s bottom feeding time now.
On 09.29.07 Kumar says:
Balaji
Ram worship doesn’t make much sense.
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how we can shut down 2 dozen major temples in TN directly related to Rama and his various avataars (not to mention hundreds of small ones)? Have some good ideas? The millions of rupees in hindi can be easily siphoned off to your DMK HQ? Replace Rama/Vishnu/Narayana idols with that of MK, EVR, Ramadoss.. of course Ramadoss could be re-named something like Pol-Pot-Doss since Stalin’s already taken? Millions who visit temple everyday could then be asked to do their pradakshinas around the local chapter of DMK?
On 09.29.07 Palahalli says:
Welcome Shuvro. Please stay.
Kumar - I think Balaji is asking to make a choice on Rama. He has clearly said he is fine with Rama