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	<title>Comments on: Continuing the Debate</title>
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		<title>By: &#187; Flat World Hindutva - Individual Freedom &#38; Socio-Economic Choice &#124; Offstumped</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-218237</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Flat World Hindutva - Individual Freedom &#38; Socio-Economic Choice &#124; Offstumped</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-218237</guid>
		<description>[...] Here is the fourth in a series of posts originally provoked by this debate on Nitin&#8217;s blog and additional perspectives from Sandeep on his blog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Here is the fourth in a series of posts originally provoked by this debate on Nitin&#8217;s blog and additional perspectives from Sandeep on his blog. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ashish</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217800</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217800</guid>
		<description>Everybody please go to faithfreedom.org, a site run by an ex-muslim. It has suras from the Quran and incidents from the life of Mohammed. These sort of murder/loot/rape-inciting statements (all to be done to civilians) are all over the quran (I have read the paper version).

Can anyone point to incitement to kill civilians in Hindu texts? Even in the Gita the teaching is to go fight the *army*, not butcher civilians. And even then the war was about a kingdom stolen by cheating, and not returned even after the exile conditions were met. Not even 5 villages were returned, forget the whole kingdom.

Apologists for Islam should examine how rational they are when they try to equate militant islam with Hindutva. They should also start reading about islam, what it is doing all over the world, what it has done over the centuries, and whether or not all this (including Osama bin Laden&#039;s work) is a deviation from the teachings of islam. 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Explore the site, don&#039;t stop at the main page. 

(Of course, nothing opens your eyes like reading the original quran and hadith, but people are too lazy to do that. They just want to lay out their views without doing research/homework. That is the meaning of &quot;rational&quot; nowadays)..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everybody please go to faithfreedom.org, a site run by an ex-muslim. It has suras from the Quran and incidents from the life of Mohammed. These sort of murder/loot/rape-inciting statements (all to be done to civilians) are all over the quran (I have read the paper version).</p>
<p>Can anyone point to incitement to kill civilians in Hindu texts? Even in the Gita the teaching is to go fight the *army*, not butcher civilians. And even then the war was about a kingdom stolen by cheating, and not returned even after the exile conditions were met. Not even 5 villages were returned, forget the whole kingdom.</p>
<p>Apologists for Islam should examine how rational they are when they try to equate militant islam with Hindutva. They should also start reading about islam, what it is doing all over the world, what it has done over the centuries, and whether or not all this (including Osama bin Laden&#8217;s work) is a deviation from the teachings of islam. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithfreedom.org/</a></p>
<p>Explore the site, don&#8217;t stop at the main page. </p>
<p>(Of course, nothing opens your eyes like reading the original quran and hadith, but people are too lazy to do that. They just want to lay out their views without doing research/homework. That is the meaning of &#8220;rational&#8221; nowadays)..</p>
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		<title>By: rawem</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217667</link>
		<dc:creator>rawem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217667</guid>
		<description>Shuvro,

That was a rhetorical question but not far off the mark.

Jihad is the word and if you delve further, you can reach its source, koran, which encourages violence against non-muslims and wishes to subjugate(make dhimmis)/kill all non muslims. No?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shuvro,</p>
<p>That was a rhetorical question but not far off the mark.</p>
<p>Jihad is the word and if you delve further, you can reach its source, koran, which encourages violence against non-muslims and wishes to subjugate(make dhimmis)/kill all non muslims. No?</p>
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		<title>By: Shuvro Aikath</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217559</link>
		<dc:creator>Shuvro Aikath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217559</guid>
		<description>&gt; Why not start with the benchmark set for Hindutva 
 &gt; i.e. â€œIslam is bad and koran encourages violence 
 &gt; against non-muslimsâ€?

are you saying benchmark set for Hindutva is &quot;hinduism is bad and bhagavad gita encourages violence against non-hindus?&quot;

please give me link to where this benchmark is mentioned. i would like to go see this kind of craziness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; Why not start with the benchmark set for Hindutva<br />
 &gt; i.e. â€œIslam is bad and koran encourages violence<br />
 &gt; against non-muslimsâ€?</p>
<p>are you saying benchmark set for Hindutva is &#8220;hinduism is bad and bhagavad gita encourages violence against non-hindus?&#8221;</p>
<p>please give me link to where this benchmark is mentioned. i would like to go see this kind of craziness.</p>
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		<title>By: rawem</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217351</link>
		<dc:creator>rawem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217351</guid>
		<description>Shuvro
&#039;They&#039; already have made up their minds(without source) i.e. Hindutva is not good and after that any Hindu reactions/retaliations reinforces it.

Inspite of all the murder and mayhem around all of us caused by islam since times immemorial, &#039;they&#039; still do not utter a word about the source of islamic savagery. Why not start with the benchmark set for Hindutva i.e. &quot;Islam is bad and koran encourages violence against non-muslims&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shuvro<br />
&#8216;They&#8217; already have made up their minds(without source) i.e. Hindutva is not good and after that any Hindu reactions/retaliations reinforces it.</p>
<p>Inspite of all the murder and mayhem around all of us caused by islam since times immemorial, &#8216;they&#8217; still do not utter a word about the source of islamic savagery. Why not start with the benchmark set for Hindutva i.e. &#8220;Islam is bad and koran encourages violence against non-muslims&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Chakravarty</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217337</link>
		<dc:creator>Chakravarty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 05:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217337</guid>
		<description>I am glad at Dasmunshi&#039;s comment, it makes it clear to everyone what Indian secularism stands for. 

The secularists will be responsible for uniting Hindus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am glad at Dasmunshi&#8217;s comment, it makes it clear to everyone what Indian secularism stands for. </p>
<p>The secularists will be responsible for uniting Hindus.</p>
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		<title>By: Harish Duggirala</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217275</link>
		<dc:creator>Harish Duggirala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217275</guid>
		<description>People who are always taking about &quot;violence&quot; and Hindutvavadis should look at history, has being non violent given Hindus anything except massacres and ethnic cleansing?

On the contrary Muslims seized Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangaldesh through violence. So obviously the Hindus (at least the one&#039;s who are not brain dead) realised that being violent pays off, I see it as a blessing that this shift is taking place after years of failure, this was like Shivaji who gave up all that Rajput &quot;honour&quot; nonsense and was not hesitant to adopt the Muslim tactics of deception to liberate Hindus.

But the biggest enemies of Hindus are not Muslimr or xtians but Hindu traitors, the same cowardly commies who ran to Bharat once their dreamland of Pakistan was created and are now openly plotting against Hindus in collusion with Muslims and soul harvesters, they are shameless about their Muslim asskissing (check the coward Dasmunshis &quot;advice&quot; to Taslima http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=0e153ac5-314b-46e2-9d7b-56e6310a44bb)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who are always taking about &#8220;violence&#8221; and Hindutvavadis should look at history, has being non violent given Hindus anything except massacres and ethnic cleansing?</p>
<p>On the contrary Muslims seized Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangaldesh through violence. So obviously the Hindus (at least the one&#8217;s who are not brain dead) realised that being violent pays off, I see it as a blessing that this shift is taking place after years of failure, this was like Shivaji who gave up all that Rajput &#8220;honour&#8221; nonsense and was not hesitant to adopt the Muslim tactics of deception to liberate Hindus.</p>
<p>But the biggest enemies of Hindus are not Muslimr or xtians but Hindu traitors, the same cowardly commies who ran to Bharat once their dreamland of Pakistan was created and are now openly plotting against Hindus in collusion with Muslims and soul harvesters, they are shameless about their Muslim asskissing (check the coward Dasmunshis &#8220;advice&#8221; to Taslima <a href="http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=0e153ac5-314b-46e2-9d7b-56e6310a44bb)" rel="nofollow">http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=0e153ac5-314b-46e2-9d7b-56e6310a44bb)</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hindutva and Militant Islam &#187; Seriously Sandeep</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217258</link>
		<dc:creator>Hindutva and Militant Islam &#187; Seriously Sandeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217258</guid>
		<description>[...] This is where I wind up my previous post on Hindutva, which I had left unfinished. I pointed to a fundamental error in understanding Hindutva by comparing it to &quot;militant Islam.&quot; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is where I wind up my previous post on Hindutva, which I had left unfinished. I pointed to a fundamental error in understanding Hindutva by comparing it to &quot;militant Islam.&quot; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sandeep</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217248</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217248</guid>
		<description>Vivek,

You are absolutely right. I&#039;m planning to do a part-2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vivek,</p>
<p>You are absolutely right. I&#8217;m planning to do a part-2.</p>
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		<title>By: Gujjubhai</title>
		<link>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-217240</link>
		<dc:creator>Gujjubhai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sandeepweb.com/2008/01/06/continuing-the-debate/#comment-217240</guid>
		<description>Shanth and CD1, you guys took the words right out of my mouth! I too followed the same trajectory from being a leftist intellectual to a pseudo-secularist to a Hindutvawadi for exactly the same reasons. 

The reality is that India has been under attack constantly since the 7th century - and we have continued to lose. Both in terms of territory and religio-cultural influence, we lost the north-west, Bangladesh and South east Asia to Islam from 7th century to 17th century. Colonial and post-colonial days have been worse as the elite were converted to anglophilia and its logical counterpart, Hinduphobia. This was done by careful application of divide-and-rule, Macaulayite education, Aryan Invasion Theory, Christian conversion etc.  

&gt;People often say Hinduism is stronger and can withstand &gt;onslaught but for one who has a modicum of understanding of &gt;international politics would realise that 40% of our &gt;population is poor and are really vulnerable to these soul &gt;harvesters.

Well, the historical loss of influence and territory show that Hinduism is just not that strong. In fact, it has been quite vulnerable both to military conquests and socio-cultural aggressions. Look no further than Afghanistan and nort-west Pakistan. Once upon a time, they were the center of Hinduism as part of a hihly advanced civilization. That is the land where Takshshila University flourished, Sanskrit was the spoken language and Maharshi Panini wrote the Ashtadhyayi grammar as early as 5th century BC. Look at the same people after they converted to Islam. It has become an intellectual wasteland where the predominant form of entertainment is throwing stones at adultresses or playing football with severed heads. 

The biggest mistake we Hindus have made is in thinking that we were finally safe in our country. However, Islam and Christianity never ceased the war, they just adapted to the new political reality but continued their aggression on Hinduism just the same. Islam cultivated fundamentalism and jehidi terrorism while Christians just took control of educating our children and channeled billions of dollars of foreign money to purchase souls of our most downtrodden and vulnerable sections of the population. 

The consequences of this will be deadly. It is not too crazy to imagine that states like Orissa, Kerala and Tamil Nadu will become the Christian equivalent of Afghanistan in this century and completely lose their Hindu heritage. After all, if it can happen to the land of Panini, why can&#039;t it happen to the land of Shankaracharya or Lord Jagannath? Make no mistake, people - we are under strong attack on all frontiers. Islam is attacking us in Kashmir and Assam, Communists have captured Nepal and they are extending a Maoist rebellioin right in the heart of the country from Nepal and Bihar down to MP, Maharashtra and AP, and Christianity is attacking us in the south in Kerala and TN. This is a desperate situation, but one that our educated middle classes are blissfully oblivious to. 

As always has been the curse on us Hindus through-out history, the sharpest knives in our backs were stabbed by none other than those we thought were our own. The traitors in Congress, Communist parties, and lefty-psec media establishment have been the strongest supporters of this Hinduism eradication campaign that has been going on since 1947. The greatest irony is that these Mir Jaffars and Jaichands of today are digging their own graves. They don&#039;t realize that as soon as Islam and Christianity become powerful enough, the anti-Hindu psecs will also be the targets of their swords. 

The only hope in hell we have of saving ourselves in this war is the Hindutwawadis. Yes, they are crude and unrefined. Yes, they are violent. But they are the only people who can save my - and your - ass. That is why my only prayer to Ishwar is to see Modi become the PM of India some day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shanth and CD1, you guys took the words right out of my mouth! I too followed the same trajectory from being a leftist intellectual to a pseudo-secularist to a Hindutvawadi for exactly the same reasons. </p>
<p>The reality is that India has been under attack constantly since the 7th century &#8211; and we have continued to lose. Both in terms of territory and religio-cultural influence, we lost the north-west, Bangladesh and South east Asia to Islam from 7th century to 17th century. Colonial and post-colonial days have been worse as the elite were converted to anglophilia and its logical counterpart, Hinduphobia. This was done by careful application of divide-and-rule, Macaulayite education, Aryan Invasion Theory, Christian conversion etc.  </p>
<p>&gt;People often say Hinduism is stronger and can withstand &gt;onslaught but for one who has a modicum of understanding of &gt;international politics would realise that 40% of our &gt;population is poor and are really vulnerable to these soul &gt;harvesters.</p>
<p>Well, the historical loss of influence and territory show that Hinduism is just not that strong. In fact, it has been quite vulnerable both to military conquests and socio-cultural aggressions. Look no further than Afghanistan and nort-west Pakistan. Once upon a time, they were the center of Hinduism as part of a hihly advanced civilization. That is the land where Takshshila University flourished, Sanskrit was the spoken language and Maharshi Panini wrote the Ashtadhyayi grammar as early as 5th century BC. Look at the same people after they converted to Islam. It has become an intellectual wasteland where the predominant form of entertainment is throwing stones at adultresses or playing football with severed heads. </p>
<p>The biggest mistake we Hindus have made is in thinking that we were finally safe in our country. However, Islam and Christianity never ceased the war, they just adapted to the new political reality but continued their aggression on Hinduism just the same. Islam cultivated fundamentalism and jehidi terrorism while Christians just took control of educating our children and channeled billions of dollars of foreign money to purchase souls of our most downtrodden and vulnerable sections of the population. </p>
<p>The consequences of this will be deadly. It is not too crazy to imagine that states like Orissa, Kerala and Tamil Nadu will become the Christian equivalent of Afghanistan in this century and completely lose their Hindu heritage. After all, if it can happen to the land of Panini, why can&#8217;t it happen to the land of Shankaracharya or Lord Jagannath? Make no mistake, people &#8211; we are under strong attack on all frontiers. Islam is attacking us in Kashmir and Assam, Communists have captured Nepal and they are extending a Maoist rebellioin right in the heart of the country from Nepal and Bihar down to MP, Maharashtra and AP, and Christianity is attacking us in the south in Kerala and TN. This is a desperate situation, but one that our educated middle classes are blissfully oblivious to. </p>
<p>As always has been the curse on us Hindus through-out history, the sharpest knives in our backs were stabbed by none other than those we thought were our own. The traitors in Congress, Communist parties, and lefty-psec media establishment have been the strongest supporters of this Hinduism eradication campaign that has been going on since 1947. The greatest irony is that these Mir Jaffars and Jaichands of today are digging their own graves. They don&#8217;t realize that as soon as Islam and Christianity become powerful enough, the anti-Hindu psecs will also be the targets of their swords. </p>
<p>The only hope in hell we have of saving ourselves in this war is the Hindutwawadis. Yes, they are crude and unrefined. Yes, they are violent. But they are the only people who can save my &#8211; and your &#8211; ass. That is why my only prayer to Ishwar is to see Modi become the PM of India some day.</p>
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