What is more shocking than the news that the anti-conversion Swami Laxmananda Saraswati was murdered in cold blood? It is the fact that he was eighty years old.
Swami Laxmananda Saraswati, the 80-year-old monk who spearheaded the anti-conversion movement in Orissa’s tribal dominated areas for decades, was shot dead at his Jalespata Ashram under Tumudibandha block in Kandhamal district late Saturday night.
Reports reaching Bhubaneswar said a group of 20 to 25 people, armed with guns, barged into the ashram at 9.35 pm and attacked him. They lobbed a hand-grenade and fired indiscriminately. Swami Laxmananda Saraswati and four others who lived in the ashram died on the spot. Among them was a woman.
[Source: The Pioneer]
The dictionary doesn’t help us find the appropriate word to describe the character of the men–nay, their sponsors who devised this most heinous crime.
The mainstream media has resorted to the safe, furtive reporting hinting that the attackers are “suspected” Naxals/Maoists.
The attack is proof that the Swami’s anti-conversion and reconversion efforts were a major success. From the Pioneer report,
Swami Laxmananda Saraswati came to tribal-dominated Kandhamal in 1966. Since then he has been leading a campaign against conversion activities of Christian missionaries. He has also been in the forefront of the campaign against cow-slaughter. It was because of his sustained efforts that thousands of tribals who had embraced Christianity returned to the Hindu fold.
Not many remember that the Swami was attacked by Missionary-sponsored thugs at Christmastime last year. Guess who took the blame for the consequent violence? I do not follow the developments in Orissa regularly so I have little or no information about what happened after that episode. An educated guess is that the Swami’s success resulted in extreme worry in the Missionary camp. Irrespective of what the media reports, there is every reason to believe that this murder was produced and directed by Christian Missionaries. Perhaps the actors were different. It takes a really wide stretch of imagination to place the blame on Maoists: when was the last time we heard that the Maoists killed a religious leader because of his religious affiliation/grounds? But Christian Missionaries have for more than a decade, made the tribals of Orissa their prey. Their history in the North East is an eloquent testimony: they continue to fuel insurrection and no means are foul, including the use of drug money. A murder in Orissa therefore looks tame compared to that record and therefore gives us every reason to suspect them.
The Graham Staines case is another solid instance. Dara Singh, the murderer of Graham Staines was sentenced to death. But then the facts of what led him to commit such a grave crime is completely obfuscated and buried. Simply, Staines clandestinely engaged in conversion activities for about seven years. The Wadhwa Commission investigating the murder, notes that the efforts of Staines resulted in increasing tensions between Hindus and Christians, and Dara Singh’s motive for the murder was “misplaced fundamentalism.” And that is putting it mildly. Staines’s progress reports to his financial sponsors in a journal called Tidings shows him as a fanatical fundamentalist who virulently hated Hinduism. In a line: Christian Missionaries have been playing unrelenting havoc in Orissa for years.
Which brings us to the media’s record. In both the Graham Staines case, and the violence last year, the media riled abuses on Hindu groups protesting the attack on their way of life. And now, Swami Laxmananda Saraswati has been murdered. The best the media comes up with is “suspected Naxals/Maoists,” in a tone of absolute neutrality.
But I forget: the Swami was a VHP member, so he must have somehow deserved this death.
Update: No prizes for me, but I was right. Christian fanatics were after all, behind this murder.
The police have arrested Pradesh Kumar Das, an employee of the World Vision, a Christian Charity, from Khadagpur while escaping from the district at Buguda. In another drive, two other persons Vikram Digal and William Digal have been arrested from the house of Lal Digal, a local militant Christian, from Nuasahi at Gunjibadi, Nuagaan. They have admitted to having joined a group of 28 other assailants.
World Vision is an NGO, which aims to provide “Christian relief and development organization dedicated to helping children and their communities worldwide reach their full potential by tackling the causes of poverty.” The path of the Lord is very subtle. Fie be upon anybody who dares to cross it.
My deepest condolences. However the issue at Christmas time started as a clash between ST / SC groups in Orissa. Christians contributed a bigger portion in the ST community. when there was a clash on the ST , it happened in a Church area so they retaliated when the Swami came to see the damage. Please do not spread the wrong thing, it was caste was that was given a relegious view by the media. Just for your info…My Dad is a missionary who runs a school. He knew the Swami. Guess what..there is only 2.5 percent Christian in total of Orissa’s population. What are u talking about conversion. This is ridiculous. Please get the stats cleared before you spread the word. This time it was probably some anti social elements. Moreover this is nothing compared to the damages caused by the Sangh Parivar activists during Christmas time in Christian villages in Barakhama and other villages in Kandhamal. hope we find the real perpetuators of the Swami’s murderers. this is against Biblical laws to murder someone. thats why I am sure that this was done by anti social elements.
Not just Orissa but Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu too.
The “media” deserves more of the treatment that NDTV got in Jammu. One Dhakka to them will be enough to change their tones.
Hindu groups should consolidate and behave like the folks in jammu. They are already being called fascists - might as well live up to the uninvited title
“this is against Biblical laws to murder someone. thats why I am sure that this was done by anti social elements”.
WHAATTT? ARE YOU SERIOUS? If everyone lived according to biblical laws, there would be no crime in US and UK and no molestations in catholic church and best there would be no sleeping with other man’s wife. We are dealing with people, humans with their bias and prejudices. Let us not try to dismiss issues by saying that X’tians woudl commit no sin because they follow the Bible.
The folowing site gives CORRECT INFORMATION on Bible,no sweetners in this version.Please Xians, do not say that the information is wrong!
Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality
Working for a Biblically correct America
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Welcome to the Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality. We are concerned American Christians who want to restore our great nation to its roots in the Old Testament’s unchanging morality. We cannot remain God’s favorite nation for very long until we as a nation scrupulously observe the literal meaning of every word in the Bible (King James only, please). We believe that the entire Bible – Genesis to Revelation – sets forth God’s perfect plan for every aspect of our lives, and we don’t believe that God has changed His mind.
Our nation was founded by great, Godly men like Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson – men who loved and cherished the King James Bible in its entirety, recognized it for the infallible revelation and literal truth that it is, and based this nation firmly on the sure foundation of Biblical literalism and sexual purity. Thanks to them, America was something that no one had ever seen before in human history – a nation in which Church and State were firmly united.
Back then, people believed in the literal truth of the Bible and of The Fundamentals, and nothing bad ever happened, except to people who deserved it by not being exactly like the majority. But then, liberals sought to destroy this great nation because they hate America, hate freedom, and generally hate everything good. Thanks to them, we experience horrors like pornographic Web sites and people flying airplanes into 110-story buildings – horrors that quite simply could not have been imagined back when George Washington was President.
Liberals have also corrupted our public schools to the extent that our precious children are taught that insects have six legs, when the Bible quite plainly states that they have four. Six, of course, is each of the digits of 666, the Mark of the Beast. Thus, it is clear that Satan, through liberals, has placed his hoof mark on our schools.
Liberals have even dug their talons into the Catholic Church. Before the advent of liberalism in the 1960’s, any hint of corruption in the Catholic Church was inconceivable. Virtuous, God-fearing popes like Alexander VI saw to that.
But worst of all, liberals have corrupted the very Constitution on which this nation is founded. Originally, as so many Spirit-filled, Bible-believing pastors have reminded us, the U.S. Constitution was based firmly on the Book of Deuteronomy. That means that Constitutional rights applied only the God-fearing, Bible-believing majority. Then, unelected liberal activist judges rewrote the Constitution to read that Constitutional rights can somehow protect people from those in charge – the exact opposite of what they’re supposed to be. As a horrifying consequence, Christians are now being persecuted by not being allowed to run the country the way we like.
Even though Christ-hating liberals control the media, the schools, and the federal government, and Christian voices have been silenced in our society, we in the Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality plan to fight back with the one weapon that we have – the Bible, which is the Sword of the Spirit. We are in the process of preparing Bible tracts that teach people the Biblical truth, so that they can see through liberal lies. Our Bible tracts will be firmly based on the King James Bible, so if you take offense at any of them, you’ve taken offense at the Bible, not at us. All Bible tracts will be saved as .PDF files, so that you can print them on your home computer and show your Christian love by showing people the Bible’s truths.
Bible Tracts:
Keeping Marriage Biblically Correct: Now that unelected liberal activist judges are about to persecute Christians even more by giving homosexuals equal rights, thereby granting them special privileges, you need to know the truth about marriage. What truth is that? Why, the truth taught in the Bible, of course!
Biblically Correct Science Facts: Amaze your friends and confound Christ-hating liberal “scientists” when you tell them what the Bible really has to say.
Biblically Correct Family Values: In following traditional family values, whose traditions should we follow? Why, those in the Bible, of course!
The Ten Commandments: A Biblically Correct View: If we’re going to post the Ten Commandments in our public spaces, don’t we owe it to ourselves and to God to post the right ones?
Salvation: A Biblically Correct Guide: If you want to get right with the Lord, you need to do it the Lord’s way, as spelled out in His Word, the Bible.
Biblically Correct Fashion Tips: Don’t you want your unsaved neighbors and coworkers to see Christ in you? Then you should look the way Christ says you should look.
God: A Biblically Correct View: If you want to get to know the Lord, shouldn’t you find out what He’s like?
God Hates Rape Victims: Our newest ministry in tract form.
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“He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.”
Jesus Christ
Slightly OT, but this media hatred of the dominant religion is phenomenon not limited to India. Guess these guys just love to oppose anything and everything which isnt a part of their belief system.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-03-023-f
Marvel you truly are a marvel, so i guess goan inquisition never took place at the hands of u pious xtians.
I guess ur community hasn’t been rampaging and killing Hindus in the North East demanding “Nagaland for Christ”
Of course not, it must be the big bad sangh parivar who must be behind all this.
“The police have arrested Pradesh Kumar Das, an employee of the World Vision, a Christian Charity, from Khadagpur while escaping from the district at Buguda. In another drive, two other persons Vikram Digal and William Digal have been arrested from the house of Lal Digal, a local militant Christian, from Nuasahi at Gunjibadi, Nuagaan. They have admitted to having joined a group of 28 other assailants.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5 “
“Guess what..there is only 2.5 percent Christian in total of Orissa’s population. ”
This is the stat we get in every state…for the past three or four decades. That means either hundreds of missionaries with loads of money from the west are failing to harvest dark Hindu souls or people are lying…
Christianity is business for conversionists. More they convert, more the money. India are poor so more money offered more Indians (hindu or muslim) convert. Why NOT Hindu and Muslim do something about these funded christian conversions? This is like a Mumbai don killing someone for business - for christian conversionists. News for a while and gone with the wind, NONE get to the root to change the fate of future.
* I know conversionist is a NOT a word in dictionary
>
Go tell it to the witch hunters and the children of the inquisition
>
Christian population has increased due to conversion drives.
Consider my take
http://saurav-basu.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/08/swami-laxmanananda-saraswati-s-message-for-the-media.htm
Evangelism is part and parcel of the Christian faith.For centuries on ,efforts at conversion have been going on and will continue in the future as well.There is no dividing line between voluntary change of faith due to attraction for an individual for particular doctrines and induced conversion by resorting to one or other techniques.The conversion effort of missionaries is undoubtedly due to huge fundings from institutions abroad mostly under the cloak of social work of one form or the other.VHP’s stand on the issue will never be accepted by the govt. or the media partly due to the militant image of the organization and partly due to the inherent prejudice of the establishment to the term ‘Hindu’in matters relating to polity.It is time that some balanced journalist from the secular media does an independent study of missionaries at work in tribal areas without the knowledge of the missionaries.THis will need great courage and free thinking.It is Orissa govts’ responsibility to go into the root cause of Swami Lakshmanananda’ brutal killing and catch and punish the culprits.
Madhavan,
Just because Evangelism is part of Xianity, it doesn’t mean it’s right.
>>There is no dividing line between voluntary change of faith due to attraction for an individual for particular doctrines and induced conversion by resorting to one or other techniques.
This is like saying there is no difference between voluntary consumption of alcohol, FULLY knowing its harmful effects, and somebody spiking your juice with alchohol.
To the poster who asks: “Why NOT Hindu and Muslim do something about these funded christian conversions”.
The conversion to one of these mono-theistic religions is one more soul “saved”. Internal conversion for example from christiaty to Islam is easy. (Think of how Europe is being Islamised, for example.) So, Islam will be more than happy if some Kaafirs convert to at least some of their “misguided brothers”: the christians.
>> “He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.”
>> Jesus Christ
Well said. Now we understand why the Christian fundamentalists like Graham Staines meet the kinds of death they do.
I think we have got things a bit confused here. I personally condemn the acts of violence done in Nagaland, UK, USA and molestations in Catholic churches. If they do the wrong things they would suffer for that in another way. Just like Uriah mentioned. Those who live by the sword (this include any weapon of destruction) shall die by the sword. The LORD Jesus said to his disciples only to preach the good news and “if” anyone believes baptize him in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That was 2008 years ago. Now I am ashamed to say that this simple command has been corrupted by man in these days. If Christians suffer I just pray that they get cleaned up of the wrong things they have done and do the things the way Jesus has instructed them. Financial help received by a missionary - is another thing everybody has a finger to point out. There are 2 types…the greedy ones and the needy ones. It is very difficult to identify who is needy and who is greedy. Since it is hard to find out the conclusion is that they all are greedy. I am associated to a Christian NGO in Kandhamal. My dad is the head. I support him with my income. He has to feed 20 orphans, 15 school teachers etc., we don’t get regular support. Some friends send us few funds now and then. There is another leader nearby us who is supported regularly and has enough. I don’t want to write down all the misappropriation done by him. They are many needy and good people trying to help others and none of you would help even his brother out (maybe but this is what I see around me).I am dead against offering financial support for converting some. i would not do such a thing. if I was supposed to do that I would not sitting at my PC writing this. I would prefer to follow the simple faith given to me and I always do. The foreign funds are coming to all including Hindus, Muslims etc., I think nobody wants to talk about it except Income Tax (IT). Why does every one want to blame Christian Missionaries for getting funds? Can you give the poor people of Orissa something at least a piece of cloth to cover them, a blanket in December in Kandhamal, something to eat when their crops get destroyed? There are missionaries who would help them for nothing in return. Who will take the pain to identify the right people…no one…all you see is the bad image and draw conclusions on that. This is not fair. About conversions - The Hindu and Muslim conversions are going on in large numbers in UK and US. No one is stopping them there. It is growing day by day. Now don’t tell me about KKK in US they are racist. They are against the blacks. They aren’t religious. Let’s keep this topic open and we shall discuss. If the Swami was murdered by Christian missionaries…they would be punished by the LORD Jesus in another way. Man has no right take another life in this way. The riots. this is not civilized behavior. Yesterday night the town where I live in Kandhamal was under attack, The RSS/ VHP activists did not attack my dad as he was a respected person though he was a Christian. We prefer to follow the LORD’s way so we were kept safe. There were many homes and churches that were burned. Why this show of power? I am just too sad to see the state of affairs getting bad. Hope things get better.
Apparently, orphanage work is taken very seriously in Christian circles, enough to finish off 90 year old Swamis over what they deem as their own “orphanage turf”. This just proves that Christians maintain orphanges in the same way that Muslims maintain harems; both do so with the aim to destroy the culture of the target culture and to implement conversions. Spare Hindus your imperialist sob story. Hindus have no desire to become phillipino, native american, south korean, etc, slaves of the west.
Guys,
Sorry but Marvel is right. I am always amazed by the fat flubbers in delhi who will have elaborate weddings and spare nothing for charity. This includes devout Hindus who think that if they are giving old clothes away, it is charity. Well it is not, several shastras mention that 10% should be given to charity for man and environment. SO unless all of us commit to this this discussion as Hindus is futile.
Also, there are several Hindu charities we can give to which are pretty secular (for your information Marvel, they don’t demand that people convert for food or medical treatment).
I’ve attached a list below
http://www.geocities.com/hinduismcharity/charity
Come on guys, if all well-off Hindus give 10% things could change in India. These are our people, our own people who are destitute
Marvel,
this is against Biblical laws to murder someone. thats why I am sure that this was done by anti social elements.
One can only marvel at such lights of wisdom. I’m sure there’s laws against murder in Indian Penal code too - just like your Bible. But murders happen daily, as you pointed out by, ‘anti-social elements’.
The little difference hear is that the crime was not committed to swindle the swami of some rupees or property or crime was not of some lust. The crime was committed by these anti-socials just to assert the authority of your good Bible. Now the biblical justice would be an eye for an eye which you shouldn’t have a problem with. Please be the good Samaritian and push this via your NGO so that wheels of justice can move.
Please tell me do u justify this:-
AFTERMATH OF SWAMI’S KILLING : THE CHRISTIAN VICTIMS LIST
1) NUN BURNT ALIVE: A nun was burnt to death on 25th, Monday, after an orphanage was torched in at Phutpali in Bargarh district in Orissa during a bandh called by Hindu nationalist parties.Twenty children, who were at the orphanage, managed to escape but a priest suffered serious burn injuries in the attack.
2) RASANANDA PRADHAN TORCHED ALIVE: Another person, Rasananda Pradhan, was burnt to death when his house was set ablaze at Rupa village in Kandhamal district.
4) CHURCHES BURNT ALL ACROSS ORISSA STATE: Churches were attacked in Khurda, Bargarh, Sundergarh, Sambalpur, Koraput, Boudh, Mayurbhanj, Jagatsinghpur and Kandhamal districts as also in the state capital, police sources said, adding 40 houses were set ablaze in Phulbani town.
5) BUSES AND VEHICLES TORCHED: Mr. Mishra Digal was beaten up, while the motorcycles of Mr. R. K. Digal and Jitendra were burnt. Several buses at Gee Udaigiri in Baliguda were burnt.
6) PULBANI CHURCH RANSACKED: The Church at Phulbani,and several other churches at Phiringia were attacked and ransacked. Pastor D. Tatson’s house was vandalized and his property burnt.
7) KAKRIGUMA CHURCHES VANDALISED: Churches in Kakriguma have been targeted by the mob that reportedly damaged the Assembly Of God Church and the Philadelphia Church.
9) CHRISTIANS TAKE SHELTER IN FOREST FOR PROTECTION: A police camp at Barakhama was also attacked by the Hindu fundamentalists. With several houses being burnt down and people being made homeless, many Christians,particularly from Nua Sahi, Munda Sahi and Suna Tonga have fled into forests for their lives.
10) NUN RAPED: A young Catholic Nun of the Cuttack Bhubaneswar diocese working Jan Vikas Kendra, the Social Service Centre at Nuagaon in Kandhamal was reportedly gang raped on 24th August 2008 by groups of Hindutva extremists before the building itself was destroyed.
11) SENIOR PRIEST AND NUN INJURED: Fr Thomas, director of the Diocesan Pastoral Centre in Kanjimendi, less than a kilometer away from the Social Service Centre, and another Nun were injured when the centre was attacked. They were taken to the police station in a disheveled state as the armed mob bayed for their blood. The Pastoral centre was then set afire.
12) BALLIGUDA CHURCH BUILDINGS DESTROYED AGAIN: On 24th August 2008 evening lynch mobs at the block headquarters of Balliguda, in the very heart of Kandhamal district, which had seen much violence between 24th and 26th December 2007, attacked and destroyed a Presbytery, convent and hostel damaging the properties.
13) CHRISTIAN BOYS HEADS TONSURED: The mobs in Balliguda caught hold of two boys of the Catholic hostel and tonsured their heads.
14) PHULBANI CHURCH DAMAGED: On 25th august 2008 morning followers of the late Lakshmanananda Saraswati damaged the Catholic Church in Phulbani, the district headquarter town.
15) MOTHER TERESA BROTHERS ASHRAM ATTACKED: Mobs attacked the Mother Teresa Brothers’ residence and hospital in Srasanada, destroyed once before and rebuilt two months ago, and beat up the patients.
16) BHUBANESWAR BISHOP’S HOUSE ATTACKED: On the morning of 25th August 2008, violent mobs made several attempts to enter the compounds of Catholic Church and Archbishop’s house in the heart of the Capital of the State of Orissa. They could not enter because of the police presence. They threw stones at the guesthouse of Archbishop’s House, damaging windows.
17) DUBURI PARISH: Another group of fundamentalists entered presbytery in Duburi parish, managed by the SVDs and destroyed and damaged property. Two priests of the parish are missing.
18) Mr. Jamaj Pariccha, Director of Gramya Pragati, is attacked and his property damaged, vehicle looted and burnt.
19) A Baptist Church in Akamra Jila in Bhubaneswar is also damaged.
20) Christian institutions like St. Arnold’s School (Kalinga Bihar) and NISWASS report some damage.
21) BOUDH DISTRICT [Adjoining Kandhamal]: Fundamentalists enter the Catholic parish church and destroy property. People are fleeing to safer places. But nothing seems safe.
22) MUNIGUDA: Muniguda Catholic Fathers and Nuns’ residence have been damaged.
23) SAMBALPUR: HM Sister’s residence (Ainthapalli) has suffered damage.
24) PADANPUR: One priest is attacked and admitted to a hospital. Hostel boys and the in charge have moved away from the place.
25) MADHUPUR: Madhupur Catholic Church currently under attack.
26) SMALL CHURCHES: Attempted violence on small churches in various districts, including Padampur, Sambalpur near GM College, Talsera, Dangsoroda, Narayanipatara, Muniguda, Tummiibandh, Tangrapada, Phulbani, Balliguda, Kalingia, Chakapad, Srasanranda.
27) VILLAGE CHRISTIAN HOUSES ATTACKED: Houses attacked on forest hamlets of Balliguda, Kanjamandi Nuaguam (K.Nuaguam), Tiangia (G.Udayagiri), Padangiri, Tikabali.
28) KALAHANDI DISTRICT: Houses burnt even though the district is more than 300 kilometers from the place where Swami Lakshmanananda was killed.
29) PASTORS’ HOUSE BURNT: Pastor Sikandar Singh of the Pentecostal Mission beaten up and his house burnt in Bhawanipatna.
30) KHARIHAR: 3 Christian shops were looted and burnt. Pastor Alok Das and Pastor I M Senapati beaten up.
31) AAMPANI: Pastor David Diamond Pahar, Pastor Pravin Ship, Pastor Pradhan and Pastor Barik beaten up and chased away with their families.
32) NAKTIKANI: Mob surrounds village to attack Christians.
Niksha you talk as if only xtians donate, many Hindus contribute money, but Hindu organizations don’t have the world media rooting for them and they don’t thump their chests, by contrast the xtians like Marvel have mastered the art of portraying India as a land of dirty heathens in need of constant charity to their masters in the West, just check the images associate with Kolkota in the West, immediately you will find “squalor, ‘mother’ Theresa, charity”.
At any rate isn’t it ironic that it was white xtians with full cooperation from Indian xtians that looted India’s wealth and impoverished it so badly in the first place, not to speak of the permanent stigma these xtians created around many castes by labeling them “criminal tribes” during British rule.
Now they have the audacity to claim that they are doing us a favor through charity, how about for a start the Church returns all the land it looted during British rule that made it the biggest land owner in India after the gov’t.
Also what xtians do is not charity, charity is when you help someone selflessly not when you attach strings such as “listen to our prayers, repent and follow jesus christ”, that is called BUSINESS.
You want to see real help, then go to gurudwaras or mandirs where free langar is done, they don’t ask you to chant Rama’s name to be allowed to touch food.
But I agree that Hindus need to do more, but we shouldn’t give the impression that we do nothing while xtians supposedly save all the poor souls, and lastly charity in my opinion is never a good thing in the long term, what we need is to help the poorer sections to stand on their own feet in time, not condition them to rely on dole life long.
Marvel,
What are you trying to prove. A list of victims doesn’t convey the whole picture. You know what’s a bigger murder? Cultural invasion. Why does the Church take upon itself the mandate to “save souls” or try to convince people of other faiths the need to “convert to the only true religion?”
Let’s leave that list aside for a moment. Do you agree that there can be no smoke without fire? We’ll talk more when you respond to this question.
The lion’s share of Hindu contributions to Temple organizations are siphoned off by the seculars to placate their Muslim and Christian friends in the form of haj and church subsidies. This has very correctly been described as a continuation of islamist jiziya and christianist colonial policy. These fellows are quite shameless given that they have systematically destroyed 90% of the world’s cultures and demonized the remainder.
Marvel,
I suspect that a lot of the violence in the list was actually contrived by Christians to gain sympathy. Yes, you gasp but that is what Christians have done world over (read the history of south america and africa). Imagined persecutions have been created as recently as in the preclude to the Vietnam war (and then east Timur), to garner worldwide sympathy and then banish and make extinct the heathens. You have cried wolf so often that this time Hindus are not going to believe you. STOP MAKING UP LIES TO PORTRAY YOURSELF AS A VICTIM WHEN YOU HAVE VICTIMIZED SO MANY RACES OVER A DUBIOUS MAN MADE RELIGION. If you truly believe in love and humanity then open your eyes to other religions. Stop proslethyzing and stop creating poverty and destitution to justify your cult.
STOP LYING
Steve Waugh did some fundraising for a charity few yrs. ago. It was called “World Vision.”
Yup that is the one..Why do we celebrate celebrities who raise funds for world visions, missionaries of charity etc. It is funny how many Hindus donate to Christian charities
Marvel, three questions for you.
1. If god is indeed omnipotent and omniscient - after all, the entire universe, the earth and all life on it was created by god - why do you think s/he needs pimps?
2. Why do the missionaries target tribals in villages/rural areas? There are plenty of pagan people - rich and poor - in cities too. Are these people not good/worthy enough to hear the god’s word? Why this discrimination?
3. I can appreciate if missionaries want to serve the poor and needy - that’s a noble task. But why do the poor need to be converted before receiving assistance? Are there instances in the Bible where Jesus laid a pre-condition of becoming a Christian before helping the poor?
Thanks.
My take is that milk doesnt boil over all of a sudden–
It first bubbles and hisses and gives all the signs that its going to go out of control.Most just fail to look at those signs.
There was a lot of discontent already in orissa against the christian missionary activities. All it needed was a spark plug and the missionary miliants provided it. Whether Hindus are violent or Christians are peaceful (and hence need to be converted) is not the issue here.
Just follow the simple rule: You dont mess up with the local culture, and not expect backlash.
And Marvel, tell me, are you proud that you dont indulge in converting people? If you are, are you against evangelism as well?
sandeep, i think you should demand proofs and links to news reports from Marvel for the long list of alleged christian victims in orissa. I am damned sure the list is an imagination and there will be no proof. Please remove that comment.
Reason,
The onus of proof as you pointed out, lies on Marvel. BUT demanding proof means that we’ve engaged him on the debate on HIS terms. Which is what I won’t do.
My comment policy is clear: I welcome all comments however rude or offensive unless they’re extreme.
Brute imperialism masked with victim mentality is the precise contribution of Christianity to the world. Marvel’s histrionics, selective portrayals, and strained equivalences are thus wholly appropriate for a believer. Afterall, the confused and pathetic antics of the pulp Messiah Christ are actually a typology for the imperialistic triumphs of the Roman Caesar Titus Flavius in 1st century Judea ( see Joseph Atwill’s video ).
David Rodrigues
After reading your comments, I feel I can talk to a understanding Christian about his relegion. Let us assume that a person called Jesus Christ existed 2008 years ago, though there are many historical facts to the contrary( as admitted by one of the Popes in the past, ” the Myth of Jesus Christ had served us well”). Now , why did Christ say that you can reach God ONLY through Him? This is an outrageous statement, if ever there was one!NIl respect for other relegions! This is the cause of the whole problem in this world, ie; My relegion is the only true relegion in the world. I have to save the rest of the dark souls of other relegion” If you, as a christian, deny this, you are going against your saviour and your Holy Bible.Please refer to the website http://www.heterodoxy.com
The bible God is evil, egocentric,selfish, cruel if you go by King James Bible. You have a fundamental problem with your relegion.Denying bible is denying your God and His plans for the whole Humanity! The missionories are carrying out the work set out by your Holy Bible. If you deny this, you should immediatly leave Christianity and embrace Hinduisim!
Guys
We have identified the Chritian menance and the biased media and the amoral journalists. How about we all join together and DO something about it? Sandeep can start some sort of Organisation or Movement, to inform and uphold Hindu values and stop all these conversions.. I will help what I can finacially. I am sure other NRI hindus will pitch in.Any idea Sandeep?
A Prayer,,
Dear God,,
”I Pray for the state of Orissa and for all the people living there. Please give them peace and give them the strength to stay together amidst adversity. I pray for the Christians and the Hindu’s who have died such cruel deaths. Some are being shot while nun’s are being burnt alive and gangraped. What have they done to deserve this God, please bring an end to this misery. Give strength to their families and friends to cope with this tragic loss. Remove the anger and hatred among both religions and make them understand the value for human life that is so precious to be wasted in such a way. God, bless the people of Orissa and give them the understanding to follow what is right. Let your will be done as to whom they follow. Bless them and fill their land with peace and prosperity..”
Hey Indian’s,,
Im not a Swami or a Pastor,, im just a 23 year old techie from Bangalore.. I Love India as much as my life and i was so happy when Hindu’s and muslims were putting their differences aside and helping each other during the Mumbai blasts and some stray incidents in Bangalore.. But what I read here has saddened me.. It tells me that we still have a long way to go to live as one happy country. Most of us on this blog are still seeing your colleague or your neighbour as a hindu,christian or muslim and not as a Indian. Two people have actually said that Graham Staines deserved to die the way he did because he lived by the sword..Guys, take two minutes..think again..nobody deserves to die like that and likewise for the Swami..If we go by the same notion, even Gandhiji would have deserved his death by the gun. Let us stop adding fuel to the fire and instilling hatred among ourselves. Im sure that any Hindu who would read this blog will change his attitude towards a christian friend and likewise would a christian. Let us stop this and promote friendship among ourselves and pray for a more peaceful India.
Any particular reason you have removed my Post??
Can we write a petition to the pope. He recently made disparaging statements against Hindus in Orissa. If there are millions of signatories, it will get noticed.
Prem,
Which post are you talking about?
Hi Rama Krishna,
Sandeep is the first person I read after November 2007 Gujarart elections. I have made a lot of friends with likeminded intent. We can do something. Yes we are doing already. It is going on. We need more people and we can do it together. Protecting and preserving the longest unbroken tradition is each one of our responsibility. Sanatan Dharma is more of a science than religion.
One could be an atheist but still follow the scientific rituals because they have medical and social reasons behind. By denying vedas you do not become non-hindu or becoming atheist you do not become non-hindu. They are two different things unlike Quran/Allah or Bible/Jesus.
That is the beauty and secret of our tolerance.
People who oppose conversions have to first of all understand why conversions happen. I don’t know what goes on in the mind of a tribal but to any person who can think conversion is a painful step that he or she takes when there is no other alternative. Missionaries at least work at the grassroots level and provide services like education and health to people who convert (I might be wrong but this is what I have been hearing and reading for many years).
One should ask the so-called protectors of the Hindu religion what they think about eliminating the caste system, improving the lot of people whom they don’t want to convert to another religion, educating the backwards and working for the general benefit of the community?
I think preventing people from converting to other religions is just a step towards escapism and I would go to the extent of calling it “vehla-panti”. We don’t want to sort out our own mess and like gangsters we don’t want people to join some other group. If the Hindu religion becomes progressive enough and embraces the communities that live under it there will be no need to convert to another religion. This is the real issue.
” Missionaries at least work at the grassroots level and provide services like education and health to people who convert (I might be wrong but this is what I have been hearing and reading for many years).”
your stupidity is oozing out in that one sentence alone.
When you speak about services like education to people who convert, do you know the complete picture? Education in Kerala is under a near-monopoly control of the christists. I do not say this - the ’secular’ communist government of Kerala is now taking on the christists. This monopoly did not come about due to charity - it came about due to lopsided government policies favoring minorities, that make it near impossible for the Hindus to setup institutions, and allow all kinds of grants and protection to christists.
But atleast one truth comes out in your sentence - christists use control over education - aided and abetted by secular governments - to convert. heard of the endearing term ‘rice christists’?
>> One should ask the so-called protectors of the Hindu religion what they think about eliminating the caste system, improving the lot of people whom they don’t want to convert to another religion, educating the backwards and working for the general benefit of the community?
You are a moron of the highest order, and very possibly a rice christist with a fake or Hindu sounding name. Do you think christists have no caste atrocities in India? There was a civil-war in a village in Tamil Nadu recently between christian caste groups - google for Eraiyur.
The protectors of Hindu religion can take care of the Hindu religion without rice christists like you coming in and sermonising. In fact, Swami Lakshmananda was doing precisely that when your fellow rice christists were making some ten attempts to kill him and finally succeeded.
>> If the Hindu religion becomes progressive enough and embraces the communities that live under it there will be no need to convert to another religion.
why dont the rice christists become progressive enough and admit Jesus is not the only way to heaven? And quit either killing or converting every body who thinks differently?
Amrit Hallan, you probably know that the caste system exists among Christian converts, and even Muslims have a thriving caste system (Ashraf, Ajlaf). What I don’t understand is how these two great religions claim to be egalitarian on one hand, and beat Hinduism with the caste-system stick, yet continue to have the same caste system and its associated discrimination among their followers? That would be hypocrisy, no?
“One should ask the so-called protectors of the Hindu religion what they think about eliminating the caste system, improving the lot of people whom they don’t want to convert to another religion, educating the backwards and working for the general benefit of the community?”
Amrit, have you also read and heard that education and health services are supposed to be provided by secular brigades of Nehru’s socialist governance. Why exactly are they failing to do improve peoples lives?
If one thought socialism has only economic impact on people lives, it also is a force to change cultural norms of an entire society as long as others exploit to harvest the poor dark souls. But you won’t read or hear about it.
The Christian religion has become a breeding ground for Asuras due to its exclusive bent and vain belief in it being the only path to God. I pray that the Souls of these Christians are saved from their deviant natures.
One thing I never understood about missionaries, they take trouble to thousands of miles into deep Asia, Africa etc to spread the good word of Jesus, remove poverty etc, etc.
But what the hell about local ghettos of New York, Chicago, New Orleans, Sydney, London etc? What’s these poor and destitute done that the good Jesus is punishing them by diverting all the funds and resources to foreign lands? Why have the priests in US resorting to sexually abusing their own kids? Why’s diocese for decades abused their natives? Why are aborginies in Australia negelected, oppressed and abused for centuries, why’s Steve Wagh not helping Calcutta? Why did church side with Nazis as their own jew neighbours gassed? Why’s church not removing inequalities in their own religion - you know: separate communion lines for Dalit Chrisitians versus other Christians, separate burial places for Dalit Christians versus others etc.
I’m bit puzzled, maybe our good Christian friends like Prem and Marvel help clear this.
Marvel: Here’s some unadultrated xtian love check here: Chritian aggression site
your stupidity is oozing out in that one sentence alone.
You are a moron of the highest order, and very possibly a rice christist with a fake or Hindu sounding name.
My goodness! Someone is really angry :-). you will do a great favour to your argument if you know how to talk like an adult (I’m sorry if I’m assuming that you are an adult and in actuality you are not). Have you ever realized that issues can be discussed without…anyway.
I’m a Sikh and not a disguised Christian — I neither have sympathy for people who encourage conversions and nor for those who prevent conversions. My only issue is that you hardly do anything for your community and all of a sudden you jump as if a wasp has entered your ass the moment people start converting to another religion. It should be nobody’s business who converts to what religion under what conditions as long as it is not forced, as Muslims used to do. In fact there are many Cristians that convert to Hinduism and we have no problem with that (and why should we?). I know you might say that being a Sikh I have no understanding of this issue but I would say the same thing if Sikhs reacted in the same stupid manner (well, some time they do).
Update: I’m not denying that Christians are sometimes extremely cruel. In fact some of the worst cruelties have originated from Christian ideology, whether they are against humans or animals. But this is not the point; the point is, whether a person has the right to proselytize people or not; I think he or she does.
there were enough rebuttals to your eulogising christian missionaries ’services’, denigrating Hindus for caste system and suggesting conversions take them straight to a christian heaven, and your plea for hindus to become ‘progressive’. By refusing to ack any of that, you show the level of your abilities.
so christians have the right to ‘proselytize’ with a few bags of rice. Only the Hindu heathen needs to be progressive.
My only issue is that you hardly do anything for your community and all of a sudden you jump as if a wasp has entered your ass the moment people start converting to another religion.
Amrit, I guess the wasp had entered MK Gandhi’s ass and Swami Vivekananda’s ass too because they riled against these covert activities of missionaries. Not because they were spreading word of god, but because they used the most deceptive and vicious practice to proselytize and this was over 100 years ago.
Are you familiar with works of Narayana Guru. Organizations like Ekal Vidayala? Seers from Kanchi, Udipi, etc. I can name a thousand others who are and have actually worked towards the upliftment of millions of Hindus, but I guess you have access to google and other tools and libraries. And they did so without any guidance from Bible or Quran or funds from foreign nations. Lot’s been done, yes more can be done.
Convert people fine. But don’t indulge in subterfuge and claim that my god’s bigger than yours. Don’t do so with aim of changing demographics. Don’t cheat people with Deception, Lies & Deceit or Charitable Allurement or Educational Indoctrination or use of “medical or use of sexual abuse or use of violence..
(listed http://www.christianaggression.org/tactics.php in detail, more available on request…)
There’s no quarrel with those who choose to a spiritual path per his conscience. But if you engage in activities listed above, expect some wasp your ass too.
@(un)reason: “so christians have the right to ‘proselytize’ with a few bags of rice. Only the Hindu heathen needs to be progressive. ”
No, the Hindus too can proselytize if they want to. The problem is not with proselytization, the problem is with preventing it with force and intimidation. I think enticing people to convert with a bag of rice is much better than cribbing and fuming and not spreading awareness among your own people. Have you ever thought why a 5000-year-old religion feels threatened by missionaries who want to convert people? Because we are always fighting over nonissues and never go to the root cause.
Why cannot we make people proud enough of their religion so that they don’t need to convert? Do we ensure them social security? Do we make sure that they get justice when they need it? Do they get opportunities that are needed to live a meaningful life? If not what difference does it make what religion they adopt?
And don’t tell me that the poor in our country don’t even have the right to adopt another religion, because nobody gives a damn if some affluent person in Delhi in the morning converts to Christianity or if a few hundred people become Christians in a metropolitan city.
Politico-religious groups use poor people just as pawns because they cannot wield their power on the influential.
).
Want to stop conversions? Respect people in your community. Give them dignity and above all give them equality. If you cannot provide them this it doesn’t matter whether they become Christians or Muslims or Jews, or if they embrace Scientology for that matter (and rub shoulders with Tom Cruise
@Kumar: When I’m posting these comments I am not referring to people like M. K. Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda; I’m talking about people like Togadia and his henchmen and people who sympathise with his tactics.
I’m sure that many people, social workers and saints are quietly working to uplift poor and backward people and you are right, my knowledge is limited to the Internet (in fact I’m participating in such a debate for the first time although I have been blogging for many years) as of now and I won’t deny my ignorance regarding this but then some things depend on common sense and they don’t need historical references.
I think more than protection from the “vicious” missionaries the people need basic facilities. Show them the strengths of your religion, prove it to them that it is worth sticking to and no missionary will be able to entice them with merely a bag of rice. In fact this expression in itself shows the true state of affairs: for just a bag of rice people are ready to abandon their religion. Instead of feeling enraged the lovers/protectors of religion should introspect.
Some valid points.
But, you say
Show them the strengths of your religion, prove it to them that it is worth sticking to …
You see, the strength of my religion is that allows you to pray in a way you want and in the method you want and at the time you want. Really it’s that simple. Who’s one to critic if you want to bow to a cobra or a pipal tree or Gita or Rama or Vishnu or any of the million gods. Hindu thought even accomodates atheists - read up on Chakarava. So if there’s a tribal who’s praying to bark of tree that his ancestors prayed to, why’s it my business to go tell him otherwise? In “civilized” world (say NY, LA or London or any western nation the comforts of which our good missionary friends come from) if you go pick someone on railway station and tell him how to pray and whom to pray and when to pray, you risk getting a bloody nose.
If it happens in Mumbai, Sweet Holy Mary, it’s a plot against minorities.
Let’s go to the bag of rice. Ever wonder why’s the rice bag by these foreign missionaries reserved for the Indians (or Africans) when there’s hunger and poverty in their own backyard? Any ideas on the number of countries they have literally starved and looted to hold out this bag of rice. The starving locals after Tsunami were held at ransom by this very bag of rice.
If we look for answers here, we’ll see their game plan. And what happens in a week after that bag of rice is consumed, digested and ‘composted’, ask Dalit Christians , they have plenty tales on this.
While we can claim that Tagodia and his types and their tactics don’t speak for Hindus, there are hundreds if not thousands of sane individuals around the world (I just listed two in my earlier post) who have pointed to the vile practices of missionaries. The government of India’s own report (Nyogi report - available online in it’s entirety) published about 50 years go gives a peek into their activities.
Please read Vivekanada’s works and see that prompted a mild manner person like him to to rile at missionaries saying “If all India stands up, and takes all the mud that is at the bottom of the Indian Ocean and throws it up against the Western countries, it will not be doing an infinitesmal part of that which you are doing to us.”
Let’s go back to the original issue at hand:
Here we have 80 year old Swami Laxmananda Saraswati who’s working amongst the downtrodden and tribals. And what did he do to deserve the death he did.
Raking Tagodia and other bogeyman like conversion is valid or invalid or whether basic facilities are available or not etc etc… does dis-service to any efforts to bring real perpetrators to justice. Let the hand of justice be as swift and efficient as it was in handing out punishment to Staines killer.
@Kumar: I totally agree.
I don’t think praying to a cobra or the treebark is going to fetch you food. I totally agree that if you tell someone to how to pray in the USA you may end up with a bloody nose but that is because the person who gives you a bloody nose is powerful enough. Can you say the same thing for an Indian tribal? Where is the power? I want to see exactly that power in our people. They shouldn’t always have to depend on the guardians of religion.
I think after this we’ll get into a loop; I may be wrong but I think I’ve said whatever was in my mind, and I look forward to more discussions on other topics.
Amrit Hallan has a point, except that being the christist/christist-apologizer that he is, he actually believes (or is it Christist taqiyah) that Christist missionaries in India convert people through calm dialogue. The fact - and it is a fact even if you deny it with your mouth, for God *knows* what the Christians have been up too - of the forceful conversions, the breaking of families with the intent to convert the family, the economic procurement of conversions, the false promises of equality when caste hierarchies remain entrenched after conversion, the terrorism, the drug-dealing, the AIDS crisis in the Northeast due to the latter, the sexual abuses, are quickly brushed to the side by him is indicative of either his general weakness or his duplicity.
He talks about Indians needing food, well that really has little to do with Christist missionaries; that seems an unlikely claim given the amount of food the missionaries bring in. But consider that statement again: The Christist brings in food EXTERNALLY. There has never been any positive contribution to Indian agriculture by the Christist. Indeed, it is exactly the latter, when we remember the hoarding of food supplies by British Christists; the scavenging missionary, of course, ready to use this situation to feed the hungry Hindu, claiming he was the sole winner of food and thus a spiritual savior as well.
God knows what these Asuras have been doing, and the response will come. One part of that response - as this will be a really long post if I go into it all - is that when the brown man converts, he wants to move west among the white christian idols. When this happens, of course, it further accelerates the demographic situations in Western countries, and even though the Christists talk of racial equality, we all know that White Christists rarely have members of other races in their churches. I think you can see where I am going with that…
Amrit, from what I’ve read, Swami Laxmananda Saraswati was doing exactly what you propose since 1970s or so - working with the tribal people and uplifting them through education and providing them basic amenities etc.
Forgot to add- what Amrit’s good point is, is the idea of proselytizing, except that it can only be in reality an exchange of ideas instead of a coercion into changing ones religion. Thus the Hindu should proselytize, but not in the Asuric Christist manner, it should be a bombardment of Dharmic/Hindu Mystic ideas/experiences onto minds that currently run specific biblical loop of ideas, ones that are quite susceptible to doubt because irrespective of their load boasts and hysterics during prayer sessions, they have not the spiritual experience.
It is a strong mental belief that can be broken.
Hi friends!
Food for thought -
WHY ARE HINDU TEMPLES UNDER STATE CONTROL?
AS A PRIORITY, FIGHT FOR AUTONOMY OF TEMPLES!!!!
HINDUS CONTRIBUTE WHATEVER THEY CAN TO TEMPLES (HUNDI) AS OFFERING TO GOD. THEY DON’T KNOW THAT THESE FUNDS ARE BEING MISUSED BY THE STATE!
WHY IS TEMPLE MONEY LOOTED AND USED TO BUILD CHURCHES/MOSQUES INSTEAD OF USING THE FUNDS FOR THE UPLIFTMENT OF POOR HINDUS?
Sandeep:
Your “facts” are wrong, and your deliberately inflammatory anti-Christian rhetoric epitomizes the underlying problem in Orissa.
Rama Krishnan:
The website you keep linking to (heterodoxy.com) is a parody site run by people who are even more anti-Christian than you are. It is not an authentic Christian website. You need to pay better attention to things you read.
Spreading ignorance and falsehood in the name of Hinduism isn’t helping the VHP’s case, here. The current violence is an embarrassment in the eyes of the whole world, and Sandeep’s tacit justification of the Staines murder is an especially shocking disgrace.
Peacewallah
-Sure its a lie, keep telling yourself that. How long exactly do these Christian Asuras expect they can get away with their killings and subsequent cover-ups.
Just remember that the Asura always loses.
The history of all major religions is blood-soaked including our peaceful and tolerant Hinduism. Let us not deny that. But there are degrees in the atrocities perpetrated in the name of religion and in that, all other religions pale away in comparison to Islam and Christianity. I feel there is no point making argument citing historical data as people will always doubt and debate on the historicity, and even when provided with tangible evidence no one will acknowledge or take responsibility for the past sins of his ancestor.
@Ravi,
Blood-soaked history of “our peaceful and tolerant Hinduism”??? That’s news for me. Can you please elaborate a little?
By the same logic used in the post and most of the related comments… I trust that it’s okay for us to kill every Hindu we can find in Europe and the US. While we are at it, we could also destroy Hindu property, close Hindu businesses, rape Hindu women, reject Hindu pleas for visas in all the non-Hindu nations of the world.
Also, since this group is so concerned about religious conversions, maybe you could get Hindu terrorist organizations like the VHP and Hindu religious organizations/leaders like ISKON, Art of Living and Sai Baba to close their international offices… It would save us the effort
I mean Hindus have grown to make up 1% of the population of the UK over the last decade… Now, don’t you find that really scary!!!
“The history of all major religions is blood-soaked including our peaceful and tolerant Hinduism. …. there is no point making argument citing historical data as people will always doubt and debate on the historicity…”
First you make a historical assertion without even beginning to site any proofs. Then you liberate yourself of the very responsibility to back it up. I have a new respect for the JNU types.
And By the way the name of the religion is Christianism not Christianity. Just like Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism… Christianism. An ideology, an -ism. Not an -ity?
Peacewalla
For a starter,your assumption that I have not read thr articles from Hetrodoxy. com is wrong.
The site I refer to ( Hetrodoxy. com) is dedicated to bring the truth of the Bible to the mass. If you have any problem with the TRUTH in King James Bible, please take it upto them.I would love to read your views from that site.
I agree, the site is anti- Christian, for good reason. If anyone decides to ( still) follow Christianity after reading Bible, they must have rocks in their head. I have read quite a few articles from Hetrodoxy.com, hence my recommendation to browse the site to understand the truth about Christianity and their Holy book.
Hetrodoxy.com clearly states the folloowing: If you are offended by what we say,please blame the Bible. We are only the messangers!
Cheers!
“If anyone decides to ( still) follow Christianity after reading Bible, they must have rocks in their head.”
Dear Mr. Rama Krishnan,
What does above sentence mean? Are you trying to say that all those who follow Christianity have rocks in their head. You find that the bible is not worth following, fine, nobody has any issues with that and everyone is entitled to their opinion but accusing people who do follow the book is not a great idea. If we all go by the websites we read,well, i don’t think anyone of us are that stupid, or are we???
By the same logic used in the post and most of the related comments… I trust that it’s okay for us to kill every Hindu we can find in Europe and the US.
Hi Christina,
If you find any Hindus in Europe and the US who are actively proselytizing and telling lies about other religions to win converts (just like the Christian missionaries are doing in India and elsewhere), while I don’t advocate violence, you’re free to expel them from your country.
I think after drinking the Kool-Aid of “my religion is superior and others should follow it,” it is very difficult to come out of the Christianity religious fervor, but it needs to be oft-repeated so that misguided people like you can finally start saying hello to reality.
Actually Prem the asshole quite conveniently forgets that Xtians don’t own America, maybe he needs a remainder, at any rate the facts are that America was inhabited by Native Americans who had their own spiritual beliefs, the xtians came in and genocided them with active blessings of the Church.
The most recent example of Christian atrocities in the America’s were what were called “residential schools” in Canada often run by various Churches which took away Native children from their parents and abused them physically, mentally, and emotionally in an attempt to make them into good xtians with white cultural values, they weren’t even allowed to speak their languages. This went on well into the 60s:
“In 1994, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Canada issued a public confession to Aboriginal peoples for wrongs committed in residential schools including physical and psychological punishment and sexual abuse.
Now over 12,000 individuals have made claims for compensation against the government. Seventy per cent of claimants have also named a church institution in addition to the government.
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/rqpi/i1-eng.asp?action=info-feb-13-2003
Hey Prem how come ur shameless Indian xtian community has educational institutions named after Francis Xavier whom u guys also made into a “Saint”?
I mean wasn’t this the guy who described with glee how he destroyed Hindu temples and urged that the Inquisition be set up in Goa?
What are we Hindus to make of such shamelessness, all I can think of is that u xtians justify the inquisition by naming stuff after him. Maybe the next step is for you to start naming stuff after Hitler in Israel, maybe you should try it, see how much tolerance you get for that.
Mystic Fire, How do you think Hinduism survived the scare of Jainism and Buddhism? Hindu Kings used force to control the spread. For instance in the history of Tamilnadu, references point to a period in 7th century AD when Tamil Jains and Buddhists were persecuted brutally by Hindu Kings using a torture called Kazhuvetram akin to Crucifixion.
“What does above sentence mean? Are you trying to say that all those who follow Christianity have rocks in their head. You find that the bible is not worth following, fine, nobody has any issues with that and everyone is entitled to their opinion but accusing people who do follow the book is not a great idea. If we all go by the websites we read,well, i don’t think anyone of us are that stupid, or are we???”
More hypocrisy here, when we reflect on the accusations made by Christists and their missionaries against the Sanatana Dharma - such as the Hindu Gods/Goddesses being devils, Hindus are evil, etc, etc. So now its not a great idea that a Hindu is saying that followers of Christism have rocks in their heads?
These Christists are prototypical bullies, which explains why they are so weak in Islamic countries.
Mr Prem,
I am sorry if I have offended you. Most of the christians are unaware of the cruel things written in the Bible, supposed to be God’s own words. Ex: Stoning to death for working on Sabath day,for adultery, etc, Killing the son is justified if he disobeys his parents,the list goes on.
If you are a person of peace, you will naturally abhor such a violence in a Holy book. Why the eternal Hell for the non beleivers? Why is the Bible God so cruel, unforgiving, egocentric? Why did Jesus teach that His way was the ONLY way to reach God? Also, the conversion agenda of the christians have destroyed and still destroying the native cultures of the land.
If you say these things are not there in the Bible, then you are in denial. All we Hindus want is peace with harmonial relationship with other relegions.Do not impose your relegion and your values on us. Let us treat each other’s relegion as sacred.
Hey Harish Buddy, I don’t even care about things that you are talking about. I’m not a religious freak who is out to prove that Christianism is true and others are false. There are more worthy people to do that. I have my beliefs and you have your beliefs, fine, live with that. Religions and community consists of people and all that people do are sin. Don’t s**t you f**k all logic on me especially when I don’t even care about that.
And the Krishna twins, you guys are referring to a holy book and it is just as sacred to us as the Quran is to the Muslims and the Bhagavad-Gita is to the Hindu’s. So, after all your research, you find that the Bible is full of false teachings, good for you and congratulations. Continue your research and publish it to the world. I don’t care and all the best to you.
“I’m not a religious freak who is out to prove that Christianism is true and others are false. There are more worthy people to do that. I have my beliefs and you have your beliefs, fine, live with that. Religions and community consists of people and all that people do are sin.”
So more worthier Christists than yourself should be the ones to go and denigrate other religions in order to propagate Christism? That says a lot.
“I don’t care and all the best to you.”
I think you care a lot more than you let on. This mentality is similar to Mohammeds mentality when his army was weak. He claimed then, the pagans have their religion, we have ours. But it wasnt a claim of tolerance, it was the claim of one who did not have the power to enforce his views. We all know what happened in Arabia.
Similarly, the Christist for now will say that “I have my beliefs and you have your beliefs, fine, live with that”, but when they get more power, they will try and enforce Christism on the local populace.
“So more worthier Christists than yourself should be the ones to go and denigrate other religions in order to propagate Christism? That says a lot.”
What????You guys are good, making me look like a christist terrorist wielding a AK-47 and asking every one around me to convert or I will blow their head off. I’m really not going to explain what I was trying to say as I’m fairly sure it will not reach you. Though I understand what you want is India being rid of it’s christian minority. And, it is not that I don’t have the power to enforce my views, but I know that my views will not be taken with the right attitude. All the best to you..
Kaafir - I did not say Christianity is superior. So, why the desperation to prove it is inferior??? Does that help you feel better???
Incidentally, Hindus do convert in the USA and Europe. Not just that, along with conversion, Sai Baba stands accused in many child molestation cases - the victims being children of his US devotees. This has been well documented by the BBC.
Harish - If one traces the history of nations, no one comes out as a saint… And definitely not the Hindus in India.
So, if the original races of the USA or Australia (assuming that I come from one of those countries, which incidentally is a gross misassumption) were the Red Indians and the Aborigines, the original inhabitants of India were the tribals. Their customs and religious beliefs are very distinct from Hindu beliefs.
From where I see it, the Hindus have completely wiped out tribal religions and customs. What is a Hindu tribal??? A tribal who has been converted to Hinduism.
Hindu conversion or Christian conversion… Let’s not have double standards… It’s still conversion and the annihilation of another culture.
If I may ask, what was the swami doing in Orissa? Converting Tribals to Hinduism???? But, in India I guess it’s alright for Hindu conversion.
The only difference seems to be that in the west people admit to their wrongs. Here, you don’t.
Christina,
I didn’t say that Christianity is inferior - I merely said that if some people believe it’s a superior religion, then that’s a lie.
Also I didn’t say anything about conversion. If people change their religion of their own free will, that’s their decision. I mentioned proselytism. There’s a difference between those two terms - please do your research and then we can discuss.
If you don’t carefully read what I wrote and misinterpret my statements, then you need to work on your reading comprehension a bit.
“What????You guys are good, making me look like a christist terrorist wielding a AK-47 and asking every one around me to convert or I will blow their head off. I’m really not going to explain what I was trying to say as I’m fairly sure it will not reach you. Though I understand what you want is India being rid of it’s christian minority. And, it is not that I don’t have the power to enforce my views, but I know that my views will not be taken with the right attitude. All the best to you..”
the gist of the Christist mentality can be explained by “Though I understand what you want is India being rid of it’s christian minority.”
This is a fine example of a persecution complex. After all, in my previous posts I simply stated that the Christists need to divorce themselves from western funding and fanaticism, and Prem takes this to mean that we want the Christists rid of.
This is what the Christists do, they fantasize or imagine about being persecuted, and then they go off and kill those whom they’ve imagined to be the persecutors, as they will feel justified and motivated in doing so. We can only speculate that the Christoterrorists who murdered the Swami possibly were under the delusion of being persecuted.
Christina has absorbed the missionary propaganda completely, this falsehood that the tribals have another religion separate from the Sanatana Dharma - because we must remember that the Sanatana Dharma incorporates a lot more Gods and Goddesses than just Krishna or Rama, it is not an exclusionary semetic.
The inherent problem of the Christist religion is best shown here - that of ***division***
The christist plan in India is to divide followers of the Sanatana Dharma by saying to one particular follower that “you are not really Hindu.” This is easier for them because their religion is based on a falsehood of a division between God and Man, unlike the Sanatana Dharma where Man is really a Godhead.
The seeds of their destruction are latent in their focus on this division, which is why one has seen such a reaction to Christism in Europe where they have exhausted their faith.
And when you try and sow divisions amongst others, you will become divided yourself. It is already happening at the origin of the fanatic Christist movements, they just are not fully aware of what is going on.
Kaafir – if you are saying that Christianity is neither superior or inferior, I agree with you. Unfortunately, it’s not what most on this site are saying.
Proselytizing = inducing conversion.
As mentioned, Hindu spiritual organizations ISKON engage in it too in the West:
1. They have their devotees standing with pamphlets on the roads attempting to induce conversion
2. They take out processions on the street (making themselves a nuisance to the neighborhood) to spread awareness about their faith.
3. Websites like this are not about practising your faith. They are targeted at a western audience, in the attempt to get new recruits. The next time I get an unsolicited mail from ISKON, I’ll definitely put it up on this blog.
http://hinduism.iskcon.com/index.htm
Krishna – Thank you for proving my point It is this typical arrogance and complete intolerance that does not even acknowledge that tribals have different religious beliefs that has led to the complete annihilation of tribal religions and culture.
So right now in Orissa we have the worst form of exploitation of the tribals that is possible. First, Christian Missionaries convert tribals in Orissa. Then, the Hindus missionaries come to re-convert them – not to their tribal religions. But, to Hinduism.
For example, why does the current VHP diktat force all tribals to burn their dead? The tribal practice is to bury and not burn your dead. Or why is the attempt to stop cow slaughter being rammed down tribal throats??? And one could go on…. But, I also have a life that involves other things besides responding to comments on this hate-ridden blog.
In the ultimate analysis, the person who is completely absent from this great Hindu-Christian debate is the Tribal. And that is the worst possible form of exploitation. So, don’t talk to me about the Red Indian or the aborigine (as Harish did). First clean the mess in your own backyard that has been accumulating over the last 2000 years
But until your mental evolution get to the point where you can even acknowledge tribal religions, there is no point in having this discussion
Idiocy knows no bounds when Christina takes to the keyboard. Does the ISKCON site anywhere say that other religions are “false religions”? Is Krishna a “jealous” god who has “come not to bring peace, but to bring the sword”?
ISKCON parades may or may not represent Hinduism - but it does not represent a threat to other civilizations. It may be a nuisance to you, but a parade does not violate the laws of a land. Inducing conversions based on an entrepreneurial version of your religion DOES violate the law. It is against the law to induce conversions. Having a procession and sending you e-mail DOES NOT violate the law (unless SPAM is illegal)
That is right - the tribal is unrepresented or underrepresented. However, that is a great shortcoming of our representative democracy and not a religious issue. The response is to strengthen democratic institutions - not to obliterate Hinduism.
Finally, “until your mental evolution get to the point where you can even acknowledge tribal religions, there is no point in having this discussion” - well Hindus do not disparage other people’s religions; that is the exclusive right of Abrahamic faiths. No Hindu has ever disparaged a tribal as an “animist” that is a “devil worshiper” - as “savages propagating false gods”. Let’s do some reading before venting your spleen here shall we?
Christina,
I don’t control what other people type - I take responsibility only for my own words.
Re: ISKCON, if they convert people by denigrating their original faith/religion, or telling lies, or offering people money etc., sure, kick them out. I have no problem with that. I’m not holding a special candle for ISKCON. But are the methods of ISKCON and predatory Christian missionaries exactly the same? How about the consequences of their actions? Are ISKCON’s methods a nuisance, or do they lead to disruption of social fabric? One needs to look at all aspects, no?
Re: tribal people’s animist beliefs, the same logic that you’re using to counter Hindu reconversion efforts also applies to Christian missionaries in the first place. I’m not sure why you’d be concerned about tribals’ animist beliefs only when Hindus get there, and not *before* Christian missionaries get there. What’s sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.
I’m also not sure who exactly are you batting for here, and what is your stance? Seems to me that you’re simply trying to defend the Christian missionaries here (”ISKCON does it too” - one wrong justifies another?) and you are all over the place (India, UK, Europe, USA), but I could be wrong. So please explain what you think is OK and what is not.
Christina,
Re: ISCKON Proselytization - Remember that most of the followers of ISCKON are EX-Christians. The proselytization part comes from their old faith.
Proselytization is not encouraged in traditional Vedic culture.
Hi friends,
Please watch these two eye opening videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aup2Dl6AkYk
Christian militants - Conversions with Foreign Funds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7OwEcW-1ZE
Orissa - Christian terrorism on Hindus in India
Thank you
Ghostwriter – Maybe you need to follow the chain of posts before you fly off the handle like that
Kaafir mentioned that Hindus don’t proselytize. I gave him one example that I could think of where they do. There are others as well.
After all one sane train of thought amongst the comments on this blog seems to be to stop to Christian proselytizing. In that case, we should ban Hindu proselytizing in the Western world as well.
Further, as another extremely sane train of thought amongst the comments on this blog seems to be that the killings in Orissa are justified on the grounds of Christian proselytizing, I am also assuming that it would be okay to kill Hindus in all countries where they are proselytizing
Finally, on the threat that Hindu proselytizing causes to society. It’s huge when it’s from Hindu terrorist organizations like the VHP because they operate across the western world, gathering funds and inciting violence against Christians and Muslims, often taking the law into their own hands. From where I see it, today it’s India, tomorrow it could be the world. This is a threat to world security and a good reason to ban them and take action against the people that support across the globe.
On the great Hindu tolerance… Thanks. But, I think this blog is a shining example of whatever that means. The next time that ISKON gets a new Hindu convert, we should just send them here for an orientation on the true meaning of Hinduism
On tribals – the word is not under representation. It is exploitation and annihilation of a group’s religious and cultural beliefs. Also pointing to labels that have been put to them over the last 200 years (incidentally animism is just the worship of living beings and is not a derogatory term), does not absolve you of your responsibility of the last 2000 years that no one seems to acknowledge.
But, nothing that I say could possibly change the way that you think.
After all, wasn’t it a very tolerant Hindu who killed who killed the 78 year old Mahatma Gandhi? And aren’t there a lot of very tolerant Hindus who still justify it
Kaafir… I saw your post just as I was about to hit reply… No, contrary to what you think, I am not justifying the Christian missionaries… That’s why I put them first… The Christian and Hindu missionaries are both wrong (the Christian missionaries more so). If I’m batting for anyone it’s the tribals. Besides that, I believe that matters like these should be settled by the laws of the land and not the mob. That’s all.
I came to this site looking for information and I guess I just got surprised and then sidetracked into responding in kind by some of the extreme views I saw here.
“It is this typical arrogance and complete intolerance that does not even acknowledge that tribals have different religious beliefs that has led to the complete annihilation of tribal religions and culture.”
Christina, are you that dumb? It is not arrogance, it is the Nature of Indian religion we are talking about, that it absorbs the different strains and worshipping practices into one whole, like the ocean absorbs different rivers.
You actually are proving my point by continuing to emphasize “different” religion. This is a typical christist stance since that religion is based on division and external differences.
“It is exploitation and annihilation of a group’s religious and cultural beliefs. Also pointing to labels that have been put to them over the last 200 years (incidentally animism is just the worship of living beings and is not a derogatory term), does not absolve you of your responsibility of the last 2000 years that no one seems to acknowledge.”
Love how the Christists accuse others of exploitation and annihilation of others beliefs, when they themselves are the ones doing this.
As for ISCKON, it is laughable that Christina is going to compare this to the hundred million plus christist operation in india that has its tentacles within the media and the government. The West doesn’t need to worry about the Sanatana Dharma, it has to worry about the secular culture that is destroying it as we speak; namely, the rampant decadence at play.
Although considering the Christists are so fixated on trying to destroy the Sanatana Dharma, I have a hard time feeling much pity for them as the rug is pulled underneath their feet by the decadence within their midst as well as other factors we won’t go into here.
“Finally, on the threat that Hindu proselytizing causes to society. It’s huge when it’s from Hindu terrorist organizations like the VHP because they operate across the western world, gathering funds and inciting violence against Christians and Muslims, often taking the law into their own hands. From where I see it, today it’s India, tomorrow it could be the world. This is a threat to world security and a good reason to ban them and take action against the people that support across the globe.”
-using this logic there would be hundreds of thousands of christists arrested for supporting terrorist missionary organizations. there wouldn’t be enough prisons for them.
“Mystic Fire, How do you think Hinduism survived the scare of Jainism and Buddhism? Hindu Kings used force to control the spread. For instance in the history of Tamilnadu, references point to a period in 7th century AD when Tamil Jains and Buddhists were persecuted brutally by Hindu Kings using a torture called Kazhuvetram akin to Crucifixion.”
Ravi quote the primary sources for this before you try to pass it off as fact, this is a well known fraud perpetuated by the likes of Romila Thapar and unless you can substantiate it by quoting primary sources, you shout SHUT UP.
“the original inhabitants of India were the tribals. Their customs and religious beliefs are very distinct from Hindu beliefs.
From where I see it, the Hindus have completely wiped out tribal religions and customs. What is a Hindu tribal??? A tribal who has been converted to Hinduism.”
Christina you have mastered the art of passing off gibberish as fact.
1)No the tribals are not the original inhabitants of India, infact several tribes are very late entrants into India, perhaps you should read what real anthropologists say instead of what your christist bigots say in Churches.
2)From you see it is from behind a thick screen of xtian bigotry and fanaticism, your Brit masters when they took the census admitted at numerous places that it was impossible to separate the tribals into a separate category based on religion:
“Hinduism itself is, after all, “animism transformed by metaphysics” (as aptly written in the introduction to the 1901 census report in a discussion of the unfeasibility of separating Hinduism from “animism”).
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/harshakashmir.html “
And no the Swami was not a bigot destroying tribal religion, maybe being the bigot you are you may have never heard of it but if you go into the real India, you will see that the tribals continue to worship their old deities as long christist fanatics keep away from them, even city based Hindus worship Poleramma, Yellamma, Maisamma that never find any mention in Sanskrit based texts, ever heard of Bonalu in Telangana?
Ever heard of Bali where even today they still have their deities alongside the Hindu pantheon?
Does christism allow you to worship ancestors or old gods, maybe you can enlighten us?
Kaafir mentioned that Hindus don’t proselytize.
Christina, I’m not sure why I have to correct you again and again, and you keep mischaracterizing what I wrote. This is what I wrote:
———
“If you find any Hindus in Europe and the US who are actively proselytizing and telling lies about other religions to win converts (just like the Christian missionaries are doing in India and elsewhere), while I don’t advocate violence, you’re free to expel them from your country.”
———
I’m certain that the above sentence does not mean “Hindus don’t proselytize” as you rephrase it. If that’s what you took away from it, then no wonder we’re having some difficulty communicating.
Also, are ISKCON people telling lies about other religions to gain converts? You need to keep in mind that there’s also freedom-of-speech that comes into the picture under which a citizen is free to tell others about her faith/religion. Would you also call for banning of Latter-Day-Saints and some others who approach people on the streets and try to tell them about their faith? How would you justify that under freedom-of-speech? I’ve also mentioned in this thread or another one that I’m fine if people convert to other religions of their own free will - that’s their choice and their right.
If you’re batting for the tribals, then your ire should be primarily directed at the Christian missionaries, and not the Hindu folks.
I personally do not advocate breaking of any law by anyone or violence, and maintain that all actions against Christian missionaries should be done keeping that in mind. But the media also has a responsibility to report without prejudice.
I’ll give you an example:
When swami was murdered, there was a woman who was shot to death, and there were kids present at the ashram during that time.
When the Christian orphanage was burnt, a woman died in the fire.
If you look at the media reports, the fact that a woman died in the second instance was all over the place, and initial reports mentioned she was a nun, before retracting it. What was the difference between those two women dying that made the second one’s death so much more important?
I hardly see any people pointing out this blatant biased and irresponsible reporting by the media, and is it any surprise when some people get angry over that and start justifying violence and killings that happen as a response? This justification is the flip-side of the coin when so many “liberals” shut their eyes to murder of Hindus while going into a frenzy when Christians are killed, while at the same time taking about upholding justice and equality.
Let’s fix the causes, and effects will go away too.
ISKCON philosophy is not lie. It is the purest form of Sanatan dharma.
If someone tells lies to get converts, that is foolish. Because one who is not blessed will never become a ISKCON devotee. One who is exceptionally fortunate , will become a Krishna bhakta. Others will follow worldly faiths. Some will stick to Vedic karm kanda, some will follow the false faiths of the Abrahamic line. Judgement Day , a paradise full of houries etc will continue to delude the unfortunate beings.
The Hindus are more fortunate in the sense they have the opportunity to have knowledge of the Vedas, the word of God.
The solution to all the problems in the world is to spread Krishna bhakti and Harinam sankirtan.
Christianity, Islam etc will perish as a result and this will bring about happiness all over.
All those religions are “chhal dharma” or hypocrisy. When dharma started declining in Bharatvarsha after Mahabharata, the yavan slaves of Bharat became powerful due to the bad effects of Kaliyuga. Some form of religion also came up there that freed them from the pure dharma and established hypocrisy in the forms of Abrahamic faiths.
The time has come for the world to seek its atma : the soul. A sincere seeker will find ultimate solace in the Vedic faith.
Perhaps the naysayers of Christian proslethysism (I’m sorry,proslethysism is ONLY Christian)on this forum should stop using the 5000 year old (and unshakeable) roots of Hinduism as a crutch to justify the nonsense that Marvel’s ‘brothers’ and ’sisters’ go around doing in India’s impoverished villages.
Christina, you bring color (perhaps saffron?)to the discussion when you mention VHP as a ‘terrorist group’. Taking you back to your History books, werent the Crusades some sort of a terrorist activity, armies going to West Asia to reclaim Christian land and in the process of marauding,killing and terrorising innocents on the path in the name of the Lord? We have spokespersons of your ilk ,in case you arent aware ,in the Indian English media out here who try to give us high doses of pseudosecularism day in and day out but we all know what the The Truth is. So what if the VHP raises its voice against conversions–and that too by inducements?
And as for your irritation with ISKCON about handing out flyers and pamphlets, singing and dancing — how does it compare to dangling bags of rice to the poor and feeding on their hunger? We have no problem with the pomp and grandeur of the Feast of St Mary-by all means please celebrate with even more song and dance that ISKCON does BUT do not defend inducements.
The Lord, will perhaps, be happier if HIS followers choose him rather than the vice-versa.