As we alight each step in the aftermath of the gruesome murder of Swami Lakshmananda Saraswati, we progressively discover the true nature of Christianity in its pristine-pure form. The faithful followers of the God of the Book and his Son are united across the globe in condemning–not the murder of the Swami–Hindu extremists for their unfair attacks on Christians.
This entry is more a random jotting of what I discovered in my follow-up on the event.
No less than the Holy “Ratzinger” See has joined the fray of the denouncers.
“I learnt with great sorrow the information concerning the violence against the Christian community in Orissa which broke out after the reprehensible assassination of the Hindu leader, Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati,” he said.
Ah! At least a word of condemnation from the Saviour of Souls. But others have expressed a similar sentiment in less colourful language but compensated for by applying vivid hues ranging from barbaric, extremists, and militant. Homegrown converts have quickly journeyed their outrage to the highest levels.
The Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India (CBCI), which met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday, has called for a “peaceful protest” to highlight the issue.
Which resulted in the immediate, expected response
…Manmohan Singh has asked Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik to provide protection to Christians in the state…
For the lamb cannot afford to disobey Mary Maino whose soul in turn has been promised safe passage to the Kingdom of Heaven by the Holy See. Death to Lakshmananda Saraswati for he is not blessed with such luck in addition to being born a Heathen. I don’t recall reading the Lamb bemoaning the death of the Swami, or condemning the killing. Here is a sample of the power and reach of said homegrown converts when they with impunity
Outraged by the attack on Christians in Orissa, Christian schools and colleges across the country will remain shut on Friday as a sign of solidarity.
Note that this call is based on purely religious grounds. Solidarity. In other words, a show of Dar-ul-Christendom. I don’t wish to recall the practise of open discrimination against Hindus in these very institutions–Hindu girl-children are forbidden from wearing the Bindi, and Hindu teachers/lecturers paid salaries at a lesser scale, and in general, reminded of their inferiority by virtue of being born Hindus and following Hinduism. Secularists don’t bat an eyelid, of course.
In any case, the outrage against the attacks on Christians is equally vocal, and uniformly resonant across the Christian world–India too, is included in the said world. Their only chant: Maoists, not Christians killed the Swami despite proof to the contrary. I suppose their passion for service to the Lord has blinded them to the concept of smoke and fire. One wonders how news of the Maoist responsibility reaches them but not that of a World Vision Council?
Finally, it is a telling statement on the spinelessness of the UPA when
Italy’s Foreign Ministry will summon India’s ambassador to demand “incisive action” to prevent further attacks against Christians that have left 11 people dead in Orissa, the Italian government said on Thursday.
If these jokers have any self-respect left, they would tell the Italian foreign ministry to mind its own business. But they won’t. India is in reality, ruled by an Italian Super Prime Minister.
Tags: Lakshmananada Saraswati Murder, Pseudo Secularism, Orissa on Boil, Ugly Face of Christianity, Dar Ul Christendom, Hinduism, Christian Communalism, Spineless UPA
Tags: Commentary, Indian Politics, Media Watch, Pseudo Secularism Hall of Shame, Society & Culture
Incidentally, the Maoists (atleast till now), have not disowned the attack. Perhaps accepting the blame works for them on two counts:
1) The world witnessed a spectacular showcasing of their power
2) The incident resulting in more funds to the missionaries, thereby more resistance to sangh in orissa.
“If these jokers have any self-respect left, they would tell the Italian foreign ministry to mind its own business.”
No. If these spineless pests had any drop of mother’s milk left in them, they should rather tell Italians to first stop persecuting the unfortunate Romas of Indian Origin, who are Christians, being targeted by the Italian right-wind White Christians with the ruling party’s rather open support.
sandeep
can yo increase the width of the paragraphs , may make it more aesthetic and will require less scrolling
Sandeep, I agree with 95% of what you have written, but somewhere I get a feeling, and I hope I am wrong, you are implying that if Christians are being attacked they should be protected by the state because some Christians killed Swami Lakshminanda Saraswati. Isn’t it equivalent to saying that ’84 riots were justified because some Sikhs had assassinated Indira Gandhi (because I personally know people who justify them)?
Whether we like it or not the Christians being attacked in the wake of the murder of Swami Lakshminanda Saraswati are Indian citizens too and protecting them is the duty of the state (this rarely happens in our country but this fact is supposed to exist) and there is nothing wrong in the Orissa government being instructed by the Centre to provide full security to all the people in danger (I know, I know some are going to say that only Christians are being protected and not Hindus, and to that I would say everybody deserves protection).
I am not saying that misinformation in the media is not being spread to demonize all Hindus and I am also not saying that all Christians are angels, but resenting the fact that they are being protected sounds a bit odd. Such ideas just provide fuel to the so-called secular propagandists and fear-mongers. This propaganda needs to be countered by writing balanced literature, not by justifying some killings and berating others. Instead we should focus on the barbarities involved and not the religious communities. You may wonder why raise such topics only to preach Hindus? Good question. I personally feel that all people that spread misinformation about “Hindu extremists and fundamentalists” do so with a vicious motive; they themselves know what is the reality but they twist the facts for some heinous reasons. They need to be countered very carefully. So I feel the Hindu community is the target here. There is no use preaching the others because they already know what they are doing and they are quite smug about it.
Amrit,
What I am saying is:
* There is no smoke without fire.
* Cultural invasion is murder. When you set that in motion, consequences are unpredictable.
* Since when have governments in India begun to care about protecting citizens?
@Sandeep: * Cultural invasion is murder. When you set that in motion, consequences are unpredictable.
Well, this is a dangerous statement; even if it is true, when situations cannot be controlled, they reek of administrative and social incompetence, and nothing can justify that. It’s like that ghoulish statement of Modi’s that every action has a reaction. It’s like Rajeev Gandhi’s statement that when a big tree falls the ground is bound to shake. Violence against communities has no justification because it eventually turns into genocide and any kind of genocide is shameful no matter how repressed you feel (Muslims are, for instance, always feeling repressed, marginalised and targeted and hence a the intellectuals justify terrorism). You can oppose communalism, religion-based oppression and manipulation by civilised means too; that is why some countries and cultures are civilised and some are not.
My whole point is that in the blind pursuit of supporting a cause we shouldn’t lose the sense of right and wrong; after all this is how we accuse the intellectuals and the secularists — no matter what, they have to blame and demonise Hindus and they have to justify all the actions of other communities. By condoning violence against communities we simply validate their claims.
I endorse Amrit. Our Indian government may have failed on countless occasions (and continuing to fail) to protect us. But that cannot mean in a civilized society(?) like us, common citizens can avenge the injustice by going about ransacking and murdering people. I don’t see any harm in politicians urging protection for Christians. It is an unwritten rule that a civilized State has to protect its minority community if there is a majority onslaught.
Amrit,
>>Well, this is a dangerous statement; even if it is true, when situations cannot be controlled, they reek of administrative and social incompetence, and nothing can justify that.
You misread what I meant. I merely said the consequences are unpredictable–that again flows from there’s no smoke without fire. You cannot compare this with Modi’s or Rajiv Gandhi’s statements. Think about it.
Ravi,
>>Our Indian government may have failed on countless occasions (and continuing to fail) to protect us. But that cannot mean in a civilized society(?) like us, common citizens can avenge the injustice by going about ransacking and murdering people.
Common citizens are doing what you described simply because the government has failed in its protection duties.
Sandeep, I am not sure if any cultural invasion is happening here for religion is just one of the many aspects of culture. I always feel even Indian Christians fundamentally have the same culture like that of a Hindu. What is happening is rampant religious conversion, which has to be tackled differently, and certainly not in this way of targeted attacks of Christians by Hindu extremists.
Ravi, you are incorrect on two points
“common citizens can avenge the injustice by going about ransacking and murdering people”
-this would be an allright view if the police in India was of any worth, but -especially in this situation - the police in Orissa, infiltrated as it is by Christists, negligent of the threats already made to the Swami, cannot be fully expected to maintain your “civilization,” which is based on moral ideas but actually a very difficult thing to define even though you presume to do so. Hence the occurrence of riots.
“certainly not in this way of targeted attacks of Christians by Hindu extremists”
Indian christists are more and more going the way of the Asura thanks mostly to the outside influence of White chistist fanatics and their dollars and euros. And these are not “targeted” attacks, fool, they are riots. The targeted attack was the murder of the Swami - I suggest you desist from your cleverly disguised wordings.
Krishna, Are you suggesting rioters don’t target opposition group but only attack and kill opposition indiscriminately!? Never try to justify any riot or act of violence, staying far-away from the scene, sitting inside nice air-conditioned rooms with cushy job. Why hold entire group responsible for the act of few insane minds?
Ravi,
>>Sandeep, I am not sure if any cultural invasion is happening here for religion is just one of the many aspects of culture. I always feel even Indian Christians fundamentally have the same culture like that of a Hindu. What is happening is rampant religious conversion, which has to be tackled differently, and certainly not in this way of targeted attacks of Christians by Hindu extremists.
I hate to say this but this comment shows your ignorance not just about culture but about the fundamental difference in the nature of Hinduism and Xianty.
And your inside an air-conditioned room as well, so why try and justify an opposition to violence, after all, you really don’t know what is actually going on at the ground level. Anyways, if you are so concerned, go to Orissa and fast unto death instead of typing away at your keyboard far-away from the scene. You must stop the Hindooo fanatics.
Sandeep, then please enlighten what you meant by cultural invasion here? What I meant was Xians in India lead the same way of life as does a Hindu, which is why quite ironically Christian converts in India are so soaked in Indian caste system (is it Hindu culture!?), and they continue to follow caste system (read discrimination) in their supposedly caste-less new religion.
@Krishna, so why try and justify an opposition to violence..
You only choose the one where better sense prevails.
Ravi,
To enlighten you, I need to start from the very basics for which I don’t the time. For starters, try to think about Hinduism keeping the caste system aside. Hint: try reading primary sources on such subjects as Dharma, Philosophy, and Vedanta.
Let me know once you are done with your reading. We’ll continue the discussion after that.
“You only choose the one where better sense prevails.”
-What exactly do you mean by “sense”? Are you referring to your own conceptions as to what constitutes sense? Who is exactly to say that the rioters are practicing ‘worser sense’? Can you be so sure that follow-up violence is not ‘better sense’ than not using following up violence?
These are all reflections of your mind, the idea of sense, better or worse, it is based upon your opinion. Nothing you say is of any definitive truth, it is relative and based on your own moral stance which is colored by your personal mentality, or dare I say, the soft spot for certain communities…
Indeed, one might say that it would have made ‘better sense’ for the Christists to not have massacred the Hindu leader.
Sandeep, I think I asked about cultural invasion and not about Hinduism. The fact is in our pluralistic society, we can no longer associate our culture with just Hinduism alone. While I haven’t read extensively about philosophies in Hinduism, I firmly believe at least in the doctrine of Karma, non violence and harmony preached. Hope the rioters from both sides realize this.
Hello Ravi,
>>I always feel even Indian Christians fundamentally have the same culture like that of a Hindu
It is true that the “old” Christians in India (eg: Syrian Orthodox in Kerala and even Nadar Christians of TN) are culturally indistinguishable from local Hindus. Today’s neoconverts are however encouraged to assert separateness. Yanking them off from their cultural moorings is part of the conversion agenda, to make sure they will not “lapse”.
>>What is happening is rampant religious conversion, which has to be tackled differently, and certainly not in this way of targeted attacks of Christians by Hindu extremists
Extremism begets extremism. We need to stop Christian extremists and their presyltism games.
>>Are you suggesting rioters don’t target opposition group but only attack and kill opposition indiscriminately!?
You need to talk to Comrade Aikath the Bar Bar Indian. Comrade — and his friends Chorakkot, Balaji, Mohan, Amit and a countless others — will tell you that all the bomb blasts that happened after Guj riots triggered by train burning are revenge for the riots. Ergo, point is that revenges happen. Not only Muslims and Christians, but Hindus also can become evil avengers. Why do you believe that only Muslims and Christians can become irrational, insane killers, but not Hindus?
Guys, just imagine someone knocking on your door and condemning the gods you and your ancestors have prayed for centuries… tell you wipe off the bindhi off your forehead and slowly condemn the beliefs you held dear all becuase Jesus has said to propogate his religion. Propagating is not wrong… in indian culters Dwaita and Adwaita groups have had debates and have won over supporters to their side.. they did not uproot the person from their upbrinignng. what is hapenning now, is they completely uproot you from your past and make you condemn it… they dont convince you intellectually, but by giving monetary and other benefits. A discussion has to happen on activities of missionaires… Brazil and Philippines did not have any religion some 150 years… look at them now. My take is this… it is great to do service.. but do it without craving for higher enrolement into your religion.. Then, it is not service. It is just Business. So, we are condemining the way they run their Business. Condemnations of missionaries is not condemnation of Christ… It is condemnations of actions of misguided Humans. Let us not shy away from the discussion of modus operandi of missionaries. No Xtian organization shoudl ahve problems discussing that and rooting out mal-practices. Why dont these Xtians go to Malaysia and try their luck? They have conquered Korea already… Tell them to try in China or Nepal or Vietnam. Our tolerance is being taken advantage of.
Noble sentiment. *But* Christianity does not add to the cultural diversity of India but instead systematically destroys cultural diversity and homogeneizes the native populace for foreign (western) interests. It also posits all sorts of false problems, eg why are there separate temples for Deities, why communities follow their own varied traditions, attempting to rend apart the native cultural fabric. Iconoclasm and demonisation of native traditions are the social tools. Assassinations, orphanage scams, hospital mission work, colonialism, resource theft, and so on, are the political tools. Just read history of native americas, phillipines, colonial Vietnam (Diem was a Vatican puppet), etc.
Violence in any form is reprehensible and can not be condoned.
I think the whole issue lies in the fact that ‘conversions’ are an Industry. Those engaged in conversions are driven by ‘economic interests’ than any religious belief. Orissa is a poor state and Kandhmahal is poorest even by the Orissa standards, thus a fertile ground for ’soul harvesting’. Since these so called priests and missioners do get ‘handsome incentives’ for converting ‘heathens’ to
Christianity they do resort to all types of things - including murder, intimidation - to safe guard their ‘economic interests’.
Now, the bigger issue is how the whole thing is projected by MSM. True it is - as this blogger has been saying for long - MSM has an ‘agenda’ and ‘economic interests’ therefore they too have become a ‘willing’ accomplice in many a crimes.
In this ‘extremely secular’ times Political class (BJP included) gets on back foot lest they are seen as communal. Once again MSM’s role - and surely I do not mean entire Media on the contrary regional media is more truthful - becomes ‘dubious’.
I followed up the debate above; I would like to point out one thing an that is, just look at not so distant past and see how issues are being ‘obfuscated’, proofs are being altered with, Separatists agendas are pursued even by the so called MSM bigwigs, look at how a road block was blown out to be as ‘Economic blockade’! All these are warning signs.
Unlike many commentators above, I am not blessed/burdened by any ‘Intellectual’ moorings, my drivel is ‘Common Sense’.
As far as ‘Hindu Reactions’ are concerned,seeing the ‘apathy’ of MSM,Political Class and ‘unabashed Hindu bashing’ in the name of ‘Secularism’. Well, the anger might be justified a-la as ‘Secularists’ point out that Islamic terrorism is due to real and perceived ‘prosecution and grievances’.
Finally, I feel Hindus are not ready to take any more. Jammu is an example, and many Hindus outside Jammu do share the ‘angst’ with them.
PI.
Sorry I forgot to add…
Thanks to Sonia,Prime Minion and their Gang of ‘perverts’.Hindus have become assertive and this is good omen for the Nation.
Arise!! Awake!! And Stop Not Till The GOAL is Reached!! Swami Vivekanand Ji.
PI.
My comments aren’t showing up? Got any idea?
The syrian xtians are the biggest traitors of them all, when vasco da gama landed they went over and swore loyalty to the Portuguese and urged him to destroy the Hindu and Muslim rulers to spread the faith, this from a community of refugees who were given shelter by the generous Hindus.
It’s another matter that after destroying the Hindus, the Portuguese being catholics turned against these Syrian xtian traitors because they were orthodox.
So much for how xtians are culturally one with Hindus. I have more respect for the Muslim fanatics because at least they are honest about their intentions and disdain for Hindu culture than the shameless xtians who use inculturation as a tool to convert and don’t have any genuine appreciation for the culture.
Amrit,
Your comments are showing up. Which ones are you talking about?
I know a fine person from Malankara church (which is an Indian church by the way — no foreign control) who’s more nationalistic than your average BJP walla.
“I know a fine person from Malankara church (which is an Indian church by the way — no foreign control) who’s more nationalistic than your average BJP walla.”
He is an exception. Conversion to Xianity and Islam leads to denationalisation and adoption of new nationality where you tie your fortunes with the foriegn races which drive these religions (White man and the Arabs).
Citing an exception does not make any difference in the overall scheme of things. Christian fundamentalism has arrived in the heart of India and we should be prepared.
Your post serves to strengthen the argument of India having its own church and own pope (brown man) and delinking Indian christians from the white man’s deadly apparatus running at the Vatican. You simply cannot swear your allgience to a White man just because you have begun to worship a god not born in india.
“delinking Indian christians from the white man’s deadly apparatus running at the Vatican”
And the American bible belt
In my view, it is not impossible to delink from the billions dollar conversion industry (unless we have a few Chanakyas who can siphon off their funds). Even totalitarian China cannot do so although they have nationalized the churches and appointed nationalist bishops apart from the vatican (since they realize that Christianity is a western dhimmi-creating tool). Chinese have guts even to lecture Pope on rampant pedophilia in the churches, but still Christians have infiltrated CCP.
Historically, only the Japanese and Sri Lankan Buddhists have successfully resisted Western/Christian plans for the phillipinization of Asia; by EDUCATING their populace on Christian designs and horrific historical record. Today, we know that Christianity originated as a Roman (Western) imperialist project in first century Judea (please see a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNJf83bqjs”>Joseph Atwill interview). Christianity masks its brute imperialism with martyr and victim complexes, while implementing an iconoclastic cultural terrorism to deculturize and enslave the target “native” cultures. Spreading knowledge about Christian history is the only way to stop the phillipinization of India.
Joseph Atwill interview
Guys,
We should write about the Christian militias in North East India. They have been terrorising Hindus and no one writes about them
http://www.christianaggression.org
please see websites - http://www.crusadewatch.org
http://www.christianaggression.com
“Historically, only the Japanese and Sri Lankan Buddhists have successfully resisted Western/Christian plans for the phillipinization of Asia;”
The western support to the most horrific terrorist group in the world, LTTE, is clearly linked to this. The LTTE ran its ‘Government’ with forced tax collections from Tamil expats in Europe and Canada even after Rajiv Gandhi assassination. They started feeling the heat only after 9/11. US had to crack the whip. FBI arrested one Tamil in New York area in 2007 and the arrested person was running fund-raising events in Churches in that area.
Look at who supports the LTTE in Tamil Nadu today.
If you needed any proof about the real intent of the human rights industry, the Sri Lankan experience will be the most conclusive one.
Everybody likes to fish in troubled waters. Church is exactly doing the same in Sri Lanka, funding LTTE in their armed struggle against predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese Army according to Lankan media. But let us not forget that the very same LTTE was trained and funded by India openly in its initial days. So before turning to West look at India and its bad foreign policies in the past (and present) that affected the whole nation and changed the demographics. Indian government sowed the misery there and sadly Lankans are reaping it now.
I have long maintained that there is more than sufficient proof that the Italian called Sonia is the Vatican’s whore to balkanise India.
Her drug addict offspring is trained by the Jesuit to do as much damage to India as possible. The Nehru-Gandhi family should have been assassinated long ago.
Indian military will be forced to battle for the Vatican in the coming World War already underway. Russian Intelligence Analysts are warning today that the Americans are accelerating their plans for Total Global War with new attacks being made, and further ones planed, against Russia, China, India and Iran. With the Vatican’s backing!
zena
What i see here are people who are not bothered about innocent Indian’s being burnt alive because of maybe 2 or 3 fools who shot dead an 80 year old Swami. Why don’t these people find out who did it and take revenge on the offenders rather than target innocent poor people. I cannot believe that this educated class of India are just as brutal when it comes to their religion as the extremists who mercilessly burn little children and women just because they were in a church. And there are some people arguing that it is absolutely fine to have innocent people being burnt alive because one person who might be from their community would have killed a man.
Maybe, If murder was a not a crime, I can imagine some of you gunning down some of your friends who might me from a different community. I would not be surprised if that day does come..
Hello,
>>Indian’s being burnt alive because of maybe 2 or 3 fools who shot dead an 80 year old Swami
Why is killing a Hindu Swami justifiable? How come the cold-blooded murderers are simply termed ‘fools’, as if ‘foolishness’ explains away their brutality? And recall, it is not just the swami that these fanatical murderers killed — they killed 3 others, including a lady who is looking after orphans!
Indeed, the brutality of educated “Indians” who do not ask the above questions is appalling. It is as if these people deserved to be murdered because they were Hindus, were resisting Christian extremism, and running an orphanage thereby denying the said exremists an opportunity to convert children.
OT not 3 others but 4 others which this Prem wanker carefully hides in his sermons, people who shot dead an 80 yr old senior among others are just “fools” to him but the reaction is described in very colorful language “burn, murder” etc etc, hmm where have I heard this tactic before …
Also isn’t it intriguing that “peace lovers” like Prem only join and start commenting/sermonizing after a Hindu reaction, surprisingly enuf they weren’t around when:
1)Hindus were denied 40 hectares of land for 3 months a year for Amarnath Yatra.
2)The Swami and his 4 associates were murdered.
” because of maybe 2 or 3 fools who shot dead an 80 year old Swami.”
So are they now ‘fools’ who were simply engaging in mindless violence? Notice how to Prem a Christist terrorist has been transformed into a ‘fool’, with the obvious implication that he did not know better, that there was no real motive to them committing the murders other than foolishness.
Prem, unsurprisingly, ignores the Christist motives behind the murder, and makes no real comment as to this end. To him, this episode only began with the retaliatory riots.
‘Why is killing a Hindu Swami justifiable?’ Thanks for your reaction OT but where have I mentioned that killing the Swamiji is justifiable. My point is why are innocent people being burnt for the brutal, savage, bloody, cruel,inhuman acts of others. Are you telling me that killing of hundreds of innocent people is justifiable because the Swamiji was killed?
Find the killers and let them pay for their acts. Hang them, stab them, burn them…whatever it takes( Maybe Harsh Duggirala can call all of them wankers and show them how it is done) but please don’t justify innocent lives being lost.
And some good news for you guys as well. 14 pastors were burnt alive on Tuesday, ofcourse it is not going to get reported(the media is not as pro-christian as you think). Some of these pastors were burnt along with their families as well. Now, this should be great revenge and I can imagine Krishna giving a treat to his friends on this happy news. Will update you with more good updates as I get them.
And, Sandeep, please dont be selective about which of my posts are being shown. Let me get a fair chance as well…
Why don’t people out here justifying the revengeful retaliation, go to Orissa and participate, if you think it is truly just? The elite always exploit uneducated, poor and jobless people in the name of religion. No moral person can justify the brutal killing of Swami and others or the violence that followed-up.
“And some good news for you guys as well. 14 pastors were burnt alive on Tuesday”
Just today 14,000 Hindus were burnt alive by xtians, of course u just take my word for it or f’off.
On another note, u expect us to believe this bs, anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that xtians have been quite good at hoaxes and making martyrs where none existed, in fact in India itself the ungrateful refugee community known as Syrian xtians of kerala have spread enuf calumny by making a martyr of “St”. Thomas whom the Hindus were supposed to have killed but who never even came to India as we know it today. This is just a sample example, many such frauds were manufactured and made into martyrs at the hands of Roman’s to make the pagans of Rome seem barbaric.
“Thanks for your reaction OT but where have I mentioned that killing the Swamiji is justifiable. My point is why are innocent people being burnt for the brutal, savage, bloody, cruel,inhuman acts of others. Are you telling me that killing of hundreds of innocent people is justifiable because the Swamiji was killed?”
Prem it sure took you a long time to write about a brutal, savage, bloody, cruel, and inhuman act. The Christist community needs to stop turning a blind eye to their fanatic and terrorist element, along with eliminating ties with the Western zealots who supply the money to them. This, more than any moral posturing, is what will bring about harmony and goodwill between the communities.
—————————————
#
Ravi
Posted September 4, 2008 at 10:40 pm | Permalink
Why don’t people out here justifying the revengeful retaliation, go to Orissa and participate, if you think it is truly just? The elite always exploit uneducated, poor and jobless people in the name of religion. No moral person can justify the brutal killing of Swami and others or the violence that followed-up.
-really the opposite argument is the better one made, because the ones who are morally outraged hold their feelings much more strongly, which is why they either overlook or take forever to acknowledge the heinous precipitant to the riots, because if they didn’t it would be more difficult for them to harness such righteous anger.
Thus, it is the duty of you Ravi and your fellow “moral” men, to go to Orissa and fast to death in protest of the rioting. Only if you think the riots are truly unjust.
Oh, that’s a ridiculous argument, Krishna. Why should I fast to death and for what purpose? How can that convince or stop already deranged minds of either side from violence? I am no Gandhi and this is no pre-independence era for that to work. Nothing would work better than might and I am sure Police forces are in full action controlling these violent thugs by now.
“Oh, that’s a ridiculous argument, Krishna. Why should I fast to death and for what purpose? How can that convince or stop already deranged minds of either side from violence? I am no Gandhi and this is no pre-independence era for that to work. Nothing would work better than might and I am sure Police forces are in full action controlling these violent thugs by now.”
Ravi, you obviously didn’t comprehend my point.
Anyways, as far as the violent thugs being controlled by police force, such force will not change the Christist mentality - we can expect more terrorist attacks emanating from the Church leadership (local or perhaps not local). This event, after all, is a continuation from christo-terrorism established through attacks in the Northeast. We can possibly surmise that the Church leadership wants to determine what they can get away with in Orissa (?)
>> Thanks for your reaction OT but where have I mentioned that killing the Swamiji is justifiable.
Calling his extremist murderers “fools” sounds like justification of the murder of four innocent people to me, and that is shocking to say the least.
Why are you justifying murders while in the same breath accusing others of the same?
>> My point is why are innocent people being burnt for the brutal, savage, bloody, cruel,inhuman acts of others.
Yeah, the Hindu swami who is running an orphanage and the three others who were pumped bullets into are innocent too. They were killed not by “fools” but Christian extremists who see the swami as an impediment to their aggressive and illegal proselytization games. Why are innocent Hindus being murdered for the brutal, savage, cruel, inhuman purposes of Chrisitian extremsits?
You don’t have an answer to that question, do you, except defending proselytizers?
>>And some good news for you guys as well. 14 pastors were burnt alive on Tuesday
Good news for you too. 27 Hindus were murdered on Wednesday. Not reported by the media. (Why would a compromised media. which thinks the murder of a white proselytizer is a horrible thing but the brutal killing of a swami who runs an orphange for girls is not, report the matter?).
You can celebrate with some sacramental wine, given your happiness over the Swamiji’s murder. Incidentally, his feet were chopped off after the murder.
I missed this gem:
>>Find the killers and let them pay for their acts. Hang them, stab them, burn them
Why are you demanding rationality from Hindus when you are obviously ok with Christian extremists getting irrational and killing the swami, a lady and two others running an orphange?
Are Chrstiain proselytizers special in your book, from whom no rational conduct is to be expected?
>>>Just today 14,000 Hindus were burnt alive by xtians, of course u just take my word for it or f’off.>>>
Hello again Harish Sir, I’m not writing a load of bull as you are with 14,000 hindus being burnt alive by xtians crap. Do not play with sentiments, some of these 14 pastors that were burnt are people I have met and whose families I know of. Pr R K Digal was murdered and his house burnt. It hurts even more when people you know of are killed so brutally. I’m sure even an emotional writer as you are will agree.
And OT, once again im not justifying the Swamiji killing though im sure you will not understand what im saying. And most of all im not expecting any rationality from Hindus or Christians because both these communities consists of human beings who are meant to be irrational.
I’m not here to argue which religion is the best and which is the worst. Far from it, im just pissed at innocent lives being lost for not fault of theirs and people like you being OK with it. It is unbelievable that you will make a statement that 27 Hindus were killed. Once again to you, im not making false statement here about people being burnt.
>>Far from it, im just pissed at innocent lives being lost for not fault of theirs and people like you being OK with it.
Same here too, pissed that innocent Hindus are being killed by Chrstian extremists and people like you come along and rationalize the brutal, savage murders of orphanage people as the work of “fools”. Does your church teach you that Chrstian lives are more valuable than Hindu lives? Is there a pecking order? Let me guess, since Hindus are “pagan”, they are condemned to Chrstian hell anyway, so ok if “fools” kill them?
>>Once again to you, im not making false statement here about people being burnt.
Let me guess again, you claims without accompanying evidence must be taken at face value because you’re Chrstian but if Hindus make claims they are falsehood?
I wonder what sort of bigotry proselytizers instilling in the laity these days, assuming you are not a proselytizer yourself.
Pream - I reproduce your following comment:
“What i see here are people who are not bothered about innocent Indian’s being burnt alive because of maybe 2 or 3 fools who shot dead an 80 year old Swami”.
Like someone said, people that killed swami are ‘fools’. They are calculated, cunning beasts… we have to deal with them and with the system that created them and with other beasts that support them. Dont try to give a new definition to foolishness.
Also, note your comments “80 year old Swami”. Howmuch ever you may try to hide your contempt for a swami, your refernece to age shows your sub-concious thought that 80 year old man killing is not such a big deal for you.
Think deeply… you have the answer in you.
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Who on earth asked you to believe my claims. Is this forum restricted to just people who will agree to whatever you say and shut up. There are thousands of people to write about the killing of Swamiji and such few people to write about the riot killing on this heavily biased forum.
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Stop giving new meaning to my posts that even im not aware off. I’m not the kind of person who looks at the other person as a Hindu or a Muslim. So, stop projecting me as the villain of all Hindus in India as im not really worth it. Use your fantastic writing skills to better use.
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I dont even know what that means. Stop wasting your time buddy.
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Sathya Bro, now that I think about it. On a sub-conscious level as you say, I mention 80 years old Swami so many times because I cannot believe that someone could kill a 80 year old person in such a brutal way. It is such a big deal for me that I mention his age so many times.
”Let me guess again, you claims without accompanying evidence must be taken at face value because you’re Christian but if Hindus make claims they are falsehood?”
Who on earth asked you to believe my claims. Is this forum restricted to just people who will agree to whatever you say and shut up. There are thousands of people to write about the killing of Swamiji and such few people to write about the riot killing on this heavily biased forum.
”Does your church teach you that Christian lives are more valuable than Hindu lives?”
Stop giving new meaning to my posts that even im not aware off. I’m not the kind of person who looks at the other person as a Hindu or a Muslim. So, stop projecting me as the villain of all Hindus in India as im not really worth it. Use your fantastic writing skills to better use.
”I wonder what sort of bigotry proselytizers instilling in the laity these days, assuming you are not a proselytizer yourself.”
I dont even know what that means. Stop wasting your time buddy.
”Also, note your comments “80 year old Swami”. How much ever you may try to hide your contempt for a swami, your reference to age shows your sub-conscious thought that 80 year old man killing is not such a big deal for you.”
Sathya Bro, now that I think about it. On a sub-conscious level as you say, I mention 80 years old Swami so many times because I cannot believe that someone could kill a 80 year old person in such a brutal way. It is such a big deal for me that I mention his age so many times.
Hello Prem,
>>Stop giving new meaning to my posts that even im not aware off
I am not giving any new meaning my friend. That is the EXISTING meaning. You rationalize the murder of four innocent Hindus as the work of “fools” but rant on and on about Christian lives as if Hindu lives don’t matter.
>>I dont even know what that means. Stop wasting your time buddy.
I am not surprised. Given that in your murder-justifying zeal you are prone to seeing “new meanings” in my writing, it’s quite possible you can’t comprehend simple, sensible points.
I’m really enjoying this OT. I have re read my posts and still trying to figure where I rationalize the swami’s killing, if I mentioning the killers as fools means I rationalize the killings then blame my poor English skills and not my reaction to the killing. I condemn it as much as you guys do. All that I’m searching for is a little sympathy for your fellow Indian’s getting killed which I’m fairly certain im not going to get from this Prem hating group.
>>I’m really enjoying this OT. I have re read my posts and still trying to figure where I rationalize the swami’s killing, if I mentioning the killers as fools means I rationalize the killings then blame my poor English skills
I’m enjoying your furious backpedaling too, but unlike your “fools” who murdered innocent Hindus, I believe you’re not foolish enough not to know that people can’t tell between Freudian slips and Eng lang skills.
>>I’m fairly certain im not going to get from this Prem hating group.
If it gives you comfort to feel and play the poor oppressed victim, enjoy. Glad to be of help!
I’m not the one who will backpedal just because some guy called OT posts some replies to me. I will stand by what I said and what I’m saying. Yes, those who killed the Swamiji are fools and those who are on this revenge killing spree are fools as well. Calling them fools does not mean I’m justifying their acts. Maybe you are not understanding me because I’m not speaking your language. I don’t know what Freudian slips means, Really man, Who the hell are you? Who talks like this???
And I have a better life then feeling victimized by a bunch of bloggers writing from their costly laptops on their couches. I’m just here because I’m enjoying every bit and definitely learning new words. Thank You guys.
Dear Prem: All we ask is, life of every citizen of india be respected, regardless of religion, caste or creed. But even an outsider can see that killings of hindus are reported in small paragraphs and killings of people of other community are greatly highlighted, as if to make every hindu in this country guilty for a death of non-hindu. All Killers are bad and should be weeded out, regardless of the religion they belong to. My question is why is the media and the people that categorize themselves as intelligentia do not write or speak about the plight of Hindus? Why do Media houses provide biased coverage. This is not about Xtians or Muslims. This is about Hindus asking for their just right in this country. This is not a zero sum game. all of us can win. If the media houses and politicians start to be fair and stop playing to the gallery, they can see the point of view of discriminated hindus. Though i do not want to boast about it, the foreign religions forget the hospitality they recieved in India for at least a century from Hindus. Now, the leaders of minority religions are turning their people against the Hindus, under whose hospitality their religion flourished. In no other country majority will be so shabbily treated. I live in a country where Hindus are a minority… The comparison between minorities right in India and in overseas is not even worth discussing.
>>I will stand by what I said and what I’m saying. Yes, those who killed the Swamiji are fools
That’s what is backpedaling, my friend. It took me to expose your anti-Hindu prejudice to get you to add the second sentence. When you started your rant rationalizing the killing of innocent Hindus, of course, that second part was missing.
I’m glad my posts achieved this effect. Hopefully you’ll not be as cavelier about jusifying the killing of innocent Hindus in the future.
>>Who the hell are you?
A person who knocked some sense into you — who has been ranting on and on about only the deaths of Christians ignoring the killing of innocent Hindus by Christian extremists. I’m sure you’re enjoying it.
“That’s what is backpedaling, my friend. It took me to expose your anti-Hindu prejudice to get you to add the second sentence. When you started your rant rationalizing the killing of innocent Hindus, of course, that second part was missing.”
Tall claims there buddy, do you think anybody cares about what you are saying. ” Anti-Hindu prejudice to get you to add the second sentence” What the hell are you talking about??? By adding all this, what you really are showing yourself to be is Anti-christian fanatic who is not ready to accept that someone from the minority is replying to the all Powerful person from the huge majority.
“”A person who knocked some sense into you”"
Oh Yeah!! you knocked some sense into me!! I realized how foolish it is to try and put across your point when the people reading it are not even trying to understand it.
And once again you go on and on and on about me justifying the Hindu killings. Once again Buddy, let us discuss some other point please. If I justify it, i wouldn’t be here talking about the revenge killings because in that case, the revenge killings are justified as well. And If im as inhuman as that, then so are you justifying innocent people being burnt alive.
“Stop giving new meaning to my posts that even im not aware off. I’m not the kind of person who looks at the other person as a Hindu or a Muslim.”
I highly doubt this. First of all, as has been well commented on here, the vocabulary you used when describing the 80 year old Swami’s murder was of someone who subconsciously places more importance on the lives of Christists. Second - and most intriguing of all - is your claim of 14 pastors being killed; crucially, you claim to have even met these pastors!
Now who exactly is this Prem character, friends of Christist Pastors working to try and destroy the Sanatana Dharma deep in the heart of Orissa. Since you seem privy to the machinations of the Church within Orissa, let me again pass this advice on to you: If you want goodwill between the Christist and Hindu communities, it is best you divorce yourself from both the ideology and monetary funds of the White Christist Zealots (when I say this Prem I am assuming, for now, that you are an Indian), and practice a Christism that would naturally fit within the Indian ethos.
Prem,
If you are an Indian, why does it not bother you that:
1. There is a huge misrepresentation of Hinduism among some Christian groups in the US and abroad.
2. As a result, large sums of money are poured into India to “save” the pagans, whatever that means.
3. This shameful proselytism causes unrest in the society when a neighbor or a relative converts, starts disparaging his old ways of doing things and adopts new customs.
4. This proselytism based on lies reflects badly on Christians as well as Christianity as a religion - if all humans are equal in the eyes of god, there’s no need to proselytize or convert someone.
(Though I’m sure you feel a pang of joy when you hear about, or meet a new Christian convert.)
5. If Indians (of all religions) do not put a stop to this proselytism, violent incidents like these will happen in the future too.
I know that you are pissed off because you are looking at the incident through your religious lens, and let’s admit it, we all do that to some extent. So, to you, Christians dying mean more than a Hindu Swami dying, and the reverse is true for some Hindus. You were quite pissed off when some folks mentioned some unpalatable truths about your religion. So maybe that will help you understand how others feel when lies are spread about their religion and people converted based on that, and media and others - who claim to be fair and just - actually do nothing. Chalta hai is the attitude.
Think about these issues with a logical and cool head, and maybe you can read some writings by Mahatma Gandhi on proselytism to get some idea of why it’s not a good thing. Though you’ll probably have to get past what your faith teaches you - admittedly, a very difficult thing to do.
“Now who exactly is this Prem character, friends of Christist Pastors working to try and destroy the Sanatana Dharma deep in the heart of Orissa.”
Are all you guys nuts or are you so crazy about your religion that it is blinding you. Attitude’s like this is why bombs are going off left, right and centre in our god forsaken country. I don’t even know what Santana Dharma means and as I have mentioned a zillion times, i just care about the people being killed.
As in my earlier post, Im a 23 year old from Bangalore, I am not some Priest or Pastor( If you want proof of that, give me your mail id and I will send across some ID or i will meet you if you are in Bangalore). I never ever got into any argument with any of you regarding religion, I’m not good enough for that, so please stop saying things that im in the forests of Orissa converting people. And for the record, how much truth do you have about conversions in Orissa sitting in your AC rooms.
As for meeting Pastors, they are simple everyday people who study in colleges and are pastoring churches in India. According to you, all that a christian does is convert people,Sir, we are not some aliens but are also Indian’s like you. And Satya talks about minorities having a great time in India, yeah right..It is now even a crime to be going to church,,soon Christmas will be banned in India as well..
And Kaafir Sir, really, you are talking to the wrong person..I’m really not here to talk about religion and conversions. It is not for me, If you really want to talk about these, find a pope or someone. All that I’m saying is it is wrong that the Swamiji was killed and it is also wrong that innocent people are being killed as revenge. Where have I not made myself clear..
I never will get into a argument over religion and I know that my reaction will not be different if the people getting burnt were not Christian’s. I know that sounds like a joke to some of you but that is the way I feel. Unfortunately, there is nothing much I can do other than try and put across my point here.
Prem,
If there is a problem, it is best to get to the roots of it instead of dealing with what’s on the surface. In my analysis, Christian proselytism is the root of this problem.
1. There’s no justification for it. (Please let me know if you think it’s OK to proselytize and why.)
2. It has caused and still causes trouble in societies. (Decimation of native cultures and “heathens”)
3. It is based on the lie of one religion being “superior” to rest all, and considering people of other religions as “inferior” because what they practice is not the same as Christianity.
If you think about this, you will come to the same conclusion even though you may not admit it.
Ergo, proselytism needs to be opposed (using lawful means). I think proselytism needs to be viewed in the same way as caste-based discrimination is viewed - a human rights issue - and banned.
Prem, I’m not going to try and convince you, but I would suggest you read some essays by Gandhi (search on the web). I’d also suggest a book by Dawkins called “The God Delusion.” Read them and make up your own mind.
And once again Kaafir Sir, im saying the same thing…
“”And Kaafir Sir, really, you are talking to the wrong person..I’m really not here to talk about religion and conversions. It is not for me, If you really want to talk about these, find a pope or someone. All that I’m saying is it is wrong that the Swamiji was killed and it is also wrong that innocent people are being killed as revenge. Where have I not made myself clear..”"
Prem,
You are avoiding answering my question.
Telling me to go talk to the Pope would be the same if I told you to go talk to the VHP leader (or whoever burned the orphanage) about what happened in Orissa, in response to your questions about Orissa violence. Probably none of the people commenting here were personally involved, or know the people who indulged in violence on either side.
If tomorrow, Pope issued an edict that said “don’t interact with non-Christians” - would you follow that, or question it?
Surely you must have some opinion about proselytism (different from conversion) - whether it is good, or bad; and if so, why is it good or bad.
Sorry if I’m avoiding your question. I’m not questioning anybody about the orphanage or churches being burnt. I’m just wondering how people are justifying violence against innocents. I’m not able to fathom it.
If somebody said to me, do not interact with non-Christians, my reaction would honestly be ‘bugger off and mind your own business”My friends are non-Christians and I would not keep quiet if something happens to them.
And since you want to put me in trouble by asking about proselytism, here is my opinion,
Bearing in mind that Christ did not advocate any person to convert to another religion, He advocated only a conversion to good living and faith in God. Religion did not exist in His vocabulary. May be some conversions occur by luring and it should be immediately stopped by Christians themselves and not by violence towards them or by them. All conversions should be only with a personal change of heart of the individual and not by any other material incentives. All conversions of the latter nature should be rejected. And really, how can a person convert if his heart has not accepted. If he is doing it for some money and food, then he is just going to go back to what his heart says once the food is eaten. Who benefits from that sort of conversion.
There you go,, good material to start grilling me again:)
Wow, this discussion is turning into semantic hair-splitting, over-interpretation, extrapolation or whatever!
Prem, you said 14 pastors were burnt alive on Tuesday and media not reporting it. I doubt if it would have gone unnoticed by our media. Our government and media has always downplayed the atrocities against majorities and at the same time highlighted it against minorities. I always thought they do this on purpose to bring calm and peace, and to stop any further majority retaliation.
Prem,
Thanks for your respone, and I’m not trying to grill you
We’re having a conversation and I am interested in investigating the philosophical underpinnings of proselytism and finding out what you really think about it.
Well Ravi, I’m enjoying it as well if that is what you mean with all those words.
NDTV has reported that 20 people were killed in the violence when the truth is that there have been much more. Of course I cannot give you any evidence, hope I could.
And Kaafir Sir, you are most welcome.
Hello Comrade Prem,
>>do you think anybody cares about what you are saying. ” Anti-Hindu prejudice to get you to add the second sentence”
If you didn’t care, you’dn’t be frothing at the mouth. If I weren’t speaking unpalatable truth, you’dn’t have cared.
>>By adding all this, what you really are showing yourself to be is Anti-christian fanatic
Why of course, thanks for the compliment, but unlike those who’re reared and raised to become bona fide, true blue, thoroughbred bigots, I’dn’t
1. call some brutal, savage killers “fools”, so as to rationalize their killings, and when my bigotry exposed,
2. try and weasel out of the situation by claiming that all killers are fools.
Better luck next time mate. Be careful and don’t let the slip show.
Hey there OT!!! Missed you for a few days there!!! How u doin?? Guess you were spending more time learning new long words to make your writing seem intellectual and true when it is just a load of you know what!! I’m not exactly frothing at the mouth but am sure laughing my head off at this situation where a seemingly know-it -all big shot like you are arguing with a nobody like me. Really, thank you for your time.
I really would not have cared if you were speaking the truth but your continuous harping on ‘Fools’ surprises me coming as it does from a ‘intellectual’ person as you. You will have to explain to me clearly how calling them fools would mean rationalizing their deeds. If I call them fools, does it mean that they will be let off if their caught. If I call them fools, does it mean I’m justifying their act. You stumped me there, still thinking about it.
“”try and weasel out of the situation by claiming that all killers are fools. “”
Why on earth would I weasel out of this situation when I have not done anything wrong. If I do not weasel out of this, are you going to send someone to burn down my house or something. I’m not trying to get out of any situation but stand by what I said.
As for you being happy at being called a Anti-Christian fanatic, does not surprise me one bit.. You are the kind who will ask your 8 year old for his friend’s names and if it is a Micheal or a Mohammad,well, all hell will break loose. You are the kind who will sit with your executive friends in a coffee shop and discuss about Jesus and how he is an imaginary character but fail to even think about the thousands of your countrymen homeless due to floods. You are kind who will never enter an Inter-Caste wedding even if it is one of your closest friends.
I’m just happy that there are so few Ot’s going around or at least I know of. Get a life OT, there are more important things in life then being a religious fanatic.
Hello dearest friend,
You seem to have started writing whole essays in response to my comments. Well, let me repeat the crucial point and spare you the trouble: if you don’t rationalize the killing of innocent Hindus and if you don’t keep whining only about the deaths of Christians, we may actually be able to see eye to eye. Best wishes.
Best wishes to you too Sir…Once again I’m not a lunatic to rationalize the killing of innocent people( whether it is Hindu’s, Christians, Muslims, Jains, etc, etc). All that I’m trying to say is innocent people should not die for acts of lunatics. Sorry if I have not made myself clear. Have a great day..
Sandeep, aplogies for the long comment.
Kaafir
If there is a problem, it is best to get to the roots of it instead of dealing with what’s on the surface. In my analysis, Christian proselytism is the root of this problem.
I think we have to dig deeper there. Christian proselytism is one layer of the roots that you have mentioned. Digging a layer deeper would show up one another reason. What makes the conversion job easier for the missionaries? The class/caste system that existed (and still exists) in the Indian society. Whose problem is the caste-sytem? Indian society was dominantly Hindu, so I will have to say it is a problem of Hinduism (I know how the caste system is philosophically explained, but I am talking about what is practised on ground - perhaps like how “Jihad” is interpreted these days). Poverty is another reason. When the missionaries approach the poor and oppressed with education and health facilities, they are obviously attracted to the Church. Forget about accepting “Jesus as the Lord and Saviour” thing, but they see conversion to Christianity as a window to better opportunities. This is what I learnt from a social activist who works among the rural areas of Chattisgarh.
But are their problems solved? Many who gets education and better job opportunities or who gets into “evangelism business” would still stick on to Christianity as it satisfies their survival needs. Many when they realize that the caste based oppression is identitical to the Indian mindset regardless of religion, sometimes re-convert to Hinduism or ultimately to Buddhism. Now the funny thing is that the VHP and other right-wing Hindutvavaadis who are up and arms against Christian religious conversion conveniently ignores the conversion to Buddhism, because digging deeper into the core issue of that conversion would reflect badly on Hinduism itself. Every year on Ambedkar janmdin, mass conversion events are organized and lakhs of people are being converted to Buddhism.
So if Hindutvavaadis are worried about conversion, the right way to counter that is not through armed attacks. That just adds up to the term “pagan”. They just have to find the problems within and cure it one by one, but then it is not an easy process like violence and it doesn’t offer political gains. So obviously they are not interested in it.
On to your other points:
1. There’s no justification for proselytization (Please let me know if you think it’s OK to proselytize and why.)
The answer is quite subjective. It is OK to proselytize from a Christian’s perspective as his religion “theoretically” asks him to “spread the good news”. From a legal point of view also it is justified or else you will have to ban the political campaigns, advertisement industry etc as a whole (because they are also proselytizing - by inducing people to accept their product/party/ by offers).
2. It has caused and still causes trouble in societies. (Decimation of native cultures and “heathens”)
True. A change in this regard has to come within the Christian community. Earlier, some of the Catholic churches in Kerala have made such references to Hindu Gods in the Sunday sermons but they have changed. Now you wouldn’t hear it in these Churches. Now they even give examples from Upanishads or Geeta in their Sunday sermons. I know it would be hard for the hardcore Hindutvavaadis to accept that. I also understand some of the protestant/evangelical churches still do the Hindu bashing though.
3. It is based on the lie of one religion being “superior” to rest all, and considering people of other religions as “inferior” because what they practice is not the same as Christianity.
Again I agree over here. But in the fight to break this myth, the Hindutva groups often resort to what they are fighting against - establishing that Hinduism is superior (and they give it the philosophical edge to claim this, particularly in the countries like USA) and they are eager to prove that Jesus, St: Thomas etc are myths (even when they are aware that existence of any God can not be proven, be it Jesus or Rama, and religion itself is a faith based business). So they end up being the evil that they are ’supposedly fighting’.
Ergo, proselytism needs to be opposed (using lawful means)
By unlawful means, did you mean the forceful conversion? If so, yes, I do agree there too.
About this particular case in question, why is it so difficult to condemn the violence against Christians? Leave the condeming part, but why is a group of people coming out to justify the violence? If that is the case to be followed, even the killing of the said Swami could be justified because during the last Orissa riots in December 2007, he reportedly have said this:
“You are just burning tyres. How many Isai (Christian) houses and churches have you burnt? Without kranti (revolution) there can be no shanti (peace). Narendra Modi has done kranti in Gujarat, the reason why shanti’s there.”
All of this doesn’t mean that I personally endorse proselytization or conversion per se. I believe none of the ordinary Christians do that either. They are busy with their daily lives. And to talk about the evangelical groups, believe me, they do the same thing to other Christian dominations just as they do to Hindus. They say I haven’t known Christ for real. But outrightly banning conversion is not viable, as it is also a matter of human rights and choice of religion. As long as forced conversions include, yes, ban it by the law.
Also somebody mentioned something about “nationalizing” Christians. This kind of nationalism is what promoted by RSS as “Hindu Rashtra”. But this doesn’t consider the diversity of religious customs that each religion follows. In other words, RSS and VHP want all other relgions to be “Hinduised”.
And just suppose a Christian or a Christian group tries to do something “Desi” in their customs, then also they are abused. So the Christians who are not “nationalized” are called western supports and the Christians who are “nationalized” are said to be doing so with a conversion agenda (the case which I had mentioned earlier for this is a Christian ashram “that operates within a Christian dominant area” worshipping in the Hindu style - of pujas, aarathi etc - and wearing saffron robes instead of the traditional white robes. When I presented that example here in this blog earlier, a commentator said “don’t put up such tricks to convert Hindus”).
My worries about conversion is not based on the religious grounds. When I hear that evangelical projects like Joshua Project has a database of information of even the remote areas of India which could be shared with the agencies like CIA, that is what worries me more.
Everybody has their own personal biases. Religious, political etc. I also have the same and I have tried my best to come out of it. Now it is your turn.
Jo, you mention poverty as a reason. How do you think India became poor in the first place? Didn’t colonialism+missionaries play a role in it? Let’s ask the British to return the wealth they took from India.
Yes, caste system is a problem, but the thing is, even after converting to Christianity, the caste system and discrimination among the Indian Christians remains in place. So any claims that Christianity makes about the bad caste system of Hinduism while promoting itself as “better” (or that they’re rescuing converts from the evils of caste system) don’t hold up.
I’m not aware of Hindutva group’s efforts to paint Jesus etc. as myths, but if they are doing that, again, it is in response to Christian missionaries’ lies. Let’s focus on the “action” and stop them from telling lies in the first place.
You seem to be saying that “Yes, we Christians are using despicable tactics - don’t copy us, but let us continue to use our despicable tactics” - in effect, continuing to maintain an uneven playing field. Very smart. Unfortunately, Abrahamic religions with their god’s directive of showing others the one true way (with the exception of Jews) as part of their faith do have that edge, and that underpinning is exactly what needs to be hit on as false. I mean, Christians don’t go around having slaves even though it’s there in the Bible, do they? And I’m sure you in all your wisdom won’t call for implementing, or acting on the basis of what’s in the Leviticus, even if you may agree with it.
If Israel can put into place laws that curb Christian mischief in their country, I don’t see why India cannot.
I find it astonishing that in spite of evils done in the name of Christianity and in the name of their god in India and around the globe, evils in front of which caste system’s evils pale into insignificance (and by the way, if you think caste system is the only thing in Hinduism, I’d say your knowledge of Hinduism is quite poor), you are still reluctant to confront missionaries and their despicable agenda, and call a spade a spade because you are a Christian. This kind of brainwashing is exactly why proselytism needs to be countered head-on.
So, I’m not so sure that you have tried your best to come out of your biases, while you tell me to come out of mine.
Shouldn’t the “superior” religion set an example first?
Jo, maybe you should argue with Gandhi and his reasons for being against Christian proselytism and see if any of your arguments hold up.
Kaafir:
India always had the rich and the poor. Each at it’s place. We had the wealthiest kings of the world and the poorest poor of the world. When we say “we were a rich country”, it is not because the whole country was rich and everybody was equally enjoying all the social and economical benefits.
That economic situation of unequal distribution of wealth was not created by the ‘Christian missionaries’. Yes, the colonialism took away so much of the wealth of the ‘privileged’. But the colonialism has contributed a lot to Indian society too, though it is not because they wanted “India” but their “colony” to be perfect.
So any claims that Christianity makes about the bad caste system of Hinduism while promoting itself as “better” (or that they’re rescuing converts from the evils of caste system) don’t hold up.
I guess you did not read my comment in full. Please go back and read through where I mentioned this: Many when they realize that the caste based oppression is identitical to the Indian mindset regardless of religion, sometimes re-convert to Hinduism or ultimately to Buddhism. That means, I do not hold any claims that Indian Christianity is not affected by caste system. The Indian Christians are converted Hindus and they have brought that along from Hinduism. But then again, you seem to be conveniently avoiding the conversions to Buddhism (which is again related to caste system).
Let’s focus on the “action” and stop them from telling lies in the first place.
How are you going to stop them? By burning or murdering them?
“Yes, we Christians are using despicable tactics - don’t copy us, but let us continue to use our despicable tactics”
Were you referring to my comment on conversions? If that is the case, I am not saying “don’t copy us”. “Copy us”, I say. Preach your religion and if people want to follow Hinduism, let them be. And if it is forced conversion, take legal action not jungle justice. That applies to both Christianity and Hinduism. I am talking about an even playfield here, Kaafir.
I find it astonishing that in spite of evils done in the name of Christianity and in the name of their god in India and around the globe, evils in front of which caste system’s evils pale into insignificance
I find it astonishing that you find one evil lesser than the other. So much of evil has been done in the name of Christianity and Hinduism. People have used it for their quest for power - Inquisition, crusades, white supremacy and so on, if we take Christianity. Caste based atrocities, sati, human sacrifices etc, if we take Hinduism. Then comes time, civilization and reforms. Many of those evils have been undone. Isn’t your comment showing a little bit more of your bias when you try to paint Christianity more evil than Hinduism, rather than seeing the evils common to all religions?
you are still reluctant to confront missionaries and their despicable agenda, and call a spade a spade because you are a Christian.
I have called a spade a spade. In an earlier post in my blog titled “My thoughts on religion and religious conversion”, I had mentioned that conversion agenda and Pope’s call to Christianize the world puts me to shame as a Christian because it is about mere numbers. I have also mentioned there that “save the souls you thought you had already saved”. That is my view point as a member of the Christian community. If that is what you call brainwashing, yes of course, my brain has been washed clean.
But it shouldn’t leave the extreme Hindutva outfits to murder people just because people convert to Christianity. If a Hindu sees the conversion to Christianity as a window to better opportunity of life (education, foreign trips etc) he should be at his will to convert. You cannot deny him that. It is just like how an NRI migrates to another country for better job opportunity. It is economical. And like I said, you will have to ban advertisements and political campaigns too, if you are to ban conversion. So from a Christian’s point of view, conversions which are not purely on the basis of religious teachings (conversion by offering money etc) is a shame. But from a neutral point of view, it is not a crime, unless it is a forced (gun-point) conversion.
maybe you should argue with Gandhi and his reasons for being against Christian proselytism and see if any of your arguments hold up.
Is he still alive? I thought somebody who had ’some kind of ideology’ silenced him long back?
Jo,
I didn’t feel it necessary to respond to ‘people converting to Buddhism’ because I have no issue with people converting to any of the Dhammic religions that were born in India.
Is he still alive? I thought somebody who had ’some kind of ideology’ silenced him long back?
Jo,
do you have a point here? His writings on Christian proselytism are still around, though people who have made a fetish of putting him up on a pedestal are the ones ignoring them.
I have no issue with people converting to any of the Dhammic religions that were born in India.
That sums up a lot about where your stand is on the religious conversion. So let us save us both some time. Thanks for the conversation so far and bye.
Hello Jo,
Can you clarify some of your points?
>>Let’s focus on the “action” and stop them from telling lies in the first place.
>How are you going to stop them? By burning or murdering them?
I don’t understand your question. Why do you believe that Christianity is such an inherently lying faith that the only way to stop its vocal advocates from lying is to murder them?
Contrariwise, a question for you: how do you think the proselytizers should cope with attempts to stop them from lying? By murdering the swamiji and other innocents as they have done?
>>Preach your religion and if people want to follow Hinduism, let them be.
In other words, you are suggesting that everybody must play by rules that Christian fundamentalists set. Why? What is so special about Christianity — with its aggressive, power-seeking, western (read white man) ethic — that everybody must comply with the rules it frames? I suggest instead that Christian proselytizers respect locally prevalent norms, not impose their own on locals.
>>If a Hindu sees the conversion to Christianity as a window to better opportunity of life (education, foreign trips etc) he should be at his will to convert. You cannot deny him that.
Sure. But why can’t the proselytizer be stopped from offering inducements? After all, buying converts is a business practice, not a religious deed.
>>And like I said, you will have to ban advertisements and political campaigns too, if you are to ban conversion.
Glad that you mentioned. Buying voters with inducements is a criminal offence in India. Buying converts should be too. But I’d go a step further and argue that proselytism must be outlawed, because ..
>>I had mentioned that conversion agenda and Pope’s call to Christianize the world puts me to shame as a Christian because it is about mere numbers.
That is a commendable stand and deserves to be appreciated. But you need to realize that proselytism’s objective IS to Christianize the world. The proselytizer does not intend to rest till the last “pagan” or non-Christian is shown the “true path”. As such, proselytism is inherently riddled with several undesirable qualities: it is anti-Hindu, anti-secular, anti-liberal, anti-coexistence and fanatical. If we want peace, we must fight proselytism.
“I’m not aware of Hindutva group’s efforts to paint Jesus etc. as myths, but if they are doing that, again, it is in response to Christian missionaries’ lies.”
People who blame “Hindutva groups” for claiming Jesus is a myth have no idea about the advancement of Biblical scholarship in the West. It is the Westerner academicians, historians and researchers themselves which are delcared jesus to be a Roman fabrication to pacify the jews. The Jews who converted to Christianity became pro-roman and became enemies of the radical jews nationalists who were fighting the Roman empire. (The same thing happens in India. the moment a Hindu cnverts, he starts siding with the White man against his own countrymen.)
See this wonderful and very well researched site:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
But people have a right to believe in the tooth fairy as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves. But that is what the Christians refuse to do. They indulge in deciet and force to convert poor, ignorant people and brainwash them against native culture.
India is Paganism Central. It does not need hostile philosophies whose central claim is “our god is true and your god is false” and “we are saved, you are doomed” and “we will not rest till we have convereted you to our God.” This kind of ideology is anathema to whatever spirituality has grown out of India in the last five thousand years. We don’t need these “religions” growing here at our expense. Christians are having a much better time in India than the Hindus are having in Christian majority areas of the country
You cannot preach secularism when in minority and screw pagans the moment you rabid fundamentalists acquire a majority in any area.
I don’t understand your question. Why do you believe that Christianity is such an inherently lying faith that the only way to stop its vocal advocates from lying is to murder them?
It is not me who believe that murder or violence is the way to stop an opposing voice/view point. It looks like it is some group of people who believes that way even though Hinduism in philosophy preaches co-existence. What is being practised on ground seems different.
how do you think the proselytizers should cope with attempts to stop them from lying? By murdering the swamiji and other innocents as they have done?
First of all, what are the attempts being done to stop the proselytizers from lying? About the Swami murder, we still have no solid evidence to prove it was Christians behind the incident except for the arrest of two World Vision workers.
In other words, you are suggesting that everybody must play by rules that Christian fundamentalists set. Why?
I am not talking about playing by the rules of any fundamentalists but to protect the freedom and human rights. That everybody should have freedom to preach their religion and join any other religion as they please. Unfortunately, the opponents of conversion seems to have problem only with the middle-eastern religions, aka Christianity and Islam. Like another commentator mentioned, conversion to Buddhism is fine but not to Christianity or Islam. That shows some other motive. But if the preacing of one’s own religion involves insulting the others, take the matter by law.
But why can’t the proselytizer be stopped from offering inducements? After all, buying converts is a business practice, not a religious deed.
Don’t tell me you did not think that conversion is basically a business practise.
Every single evangelical church that adds members, click the picture, sending it to their foreign mentors and earning money - it is all business - religion business. Similarly what is Godmen/women in Hinduism do? That also is business. So everybody is into this religion business because it is an easy way to gain money, power and influence. I am sure that you know all this. 
But my point is why should that be stopped? Either stop all of them, regardless of Christian, Hindu or Muslim or let them continue as long as they don’t force people with arm power. Because if monetary benefits is a Hindu’s aim when he/she converts to Christianity there is nothing wrong. It is a mutually satisfied business. The Church gets one more number, the convert gets monetary benefits. Both are happy. Why should the rest of people have any issues with that?
Buying voters with inducements is a criminal offence in India. Buying converts should be too.
That’s a good point you made.
If buying voters is a criminal offece in India, then we should probably ask for making law for buying converts a criminal offence too. And not just “converts” but “re-converts” too. 
If we want peace, we must fight proselytism.
I would edit that to “If we want peace, we must peacefully fight proselytism.“. We have to peacefully define the nature of this fight to make sure that another kind of extremism is not coming up. And then again, I am only against the forced conversions, not the conversions by choice.
I also want to mention that the Hindutva organizations’ campaigns against conversion has turned out to be an anti-Christian movement. An average Church going Christian is not an evangelist and does not try to convert anyone. But the VHP campaigns are like, all Christians are western-supporting, converting people and they must be sent out of India (I remember watching one video by Rakesh Sharma and in that a prominent VHP leader calls Hindus to get rid of all Christians and Muslims off India). When that kind of hate speechs are there, peace is not visible in the near future.
I also want to mention that the Hindutva organizations’ campaigns against conversion has turned out to be an anti-Christian movement.
Yup. Just like any criticism of “liberal/progressive” points by someone gets them labeled as Hindutva fanatics, without an attempt made to understand the issue or underlying reasons.
Just like anyone who speaks out against Christian proselytism is expected to take an oath that she is against violence, or it is assumed that she somehow approves violence.
Just like Christians do not have to look at the history of their religion, but quite conveniently point at caste system to justify their proselytism, ignoring the fact that proselytism is there in countries where there was no caste-system. (Every society has some disaffected people, and the strategy seems to be to target them.) Jomo Kenyatta’s words about missionaries serve as a warning.
Just like other than BIRD, I do not see too many Christians speaking out against Christian proselytism. (But plenty of Hindus do speak out against VHP et al)
Both of us can cite hundreds of such examples all day long. What’s your point?
The reason I am against Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Islam) is precisely because of the points mentioned by so many others here - I see some of the tenets of their faith as a threat to co-existence of people from different faiths together. So, just as Christianity went through an introspective phase (or was forced to) and was mostly de-fanged - except for the despicable practice of proselytism, similarly, Islam needs to go through its reform phase too. That doesn’t mean Christians or Muslims are hated, or they need to give up their faith, but certain aspects that are a threat to peaceful co-existence need to be canned - just like many other tenets of Christianity are no longer practiced and were canned. After all, there are some Christian denominations that do not proselytize.
Hinduism teaches co-existence, not passivity-&-inaction. You may be confusing the two, but that’s understandable, since many Hindus have the same confusion.
Sandeep,
My previous comment with a link to BIRD is probably in your moderation folder. I re-submitted the comment, so please publish only the first one. And you can delete this comment too. Thanks.
Is he still alive? I thought somebody who had ’some kind of ideology’ silenced him long back?
You talking about Jesus? Millions talk to Jesus daily. And to Sonia madam too - whose ancestors had a certain idealogy on silencing him.
About the Swami murder, we still have no solid evidence to prove it was Christians
All the harassment for months together, police complaints just a day before, eye witness account must not be solid but gaseous for those with ear-to-ear ventilation.
Unfortunately, the opponents of conversion seems to have problem only with the middle-eastern religions, aka Christianity and Islam. Like another commentator mentioned, conversion to Buddhism is fine but not to Christianity or Islam.
Perhaps there’s Buddhist Jihad or Crusade we have not heard off. Please enlighten us.
The Church gets one more number, the convert gets monetary benefits. Both are happy. Why should the rest of people have any issues with that?
Convert people fine. But don’t indulge in subterfuge and claim that my god’s bigger than yours. Don’t do so with aim of changing demographics. Don’t cheat people with Deception, Lies & Deceit or Charitable Allurement or Educational Indoctrination or use of “medical or use of sexual abuse or use of violence..
(listed http://www.christianaggression.org/tactics.php in detail, more available on request…)
I would edit that to “If we want peace, we must peacefully fight proselytism.“
Well, when you slap me it’s okay, when I slap back you discuss peaceful fights and cry victim.
I get it.
That sums up a lot about where your stand is on the religious conversion. So let us save us both some time.
Jo,
If you keep mixing up Christian proselytism with an individual converting to a religion (any religion - which is fine with me) of her own free will, then you will reach such faulty summing up, and I can’t really say anything more that will be helpful.
One more thing. I don’t fall into the trap of equating all religions - that’s a mistake also made by some Dawkins-fans and atheists who are intellectually lazy and use the Western framework, and then cut-and-paste it to India. I evaluate each religion on its own merits, its history, what it professes and what its impact is on the society.
If my neighbor on the right listens to loud music (his right and freedom to do so) and ignores any reasonable requests to tone it down, while my neighbor on the left is amenable to such requests, continuing to treat both these neighbors the same way just because both are neighbors would be stupid. Rest all being same, I’m more likely to be friends with the neighbor on the left. That’s a no-brainer, and forms the basis of all human/social interactions.
Hello Jo,
>>First of all, what are the attempts being done to stop the proselytizers from lying?
Like running orphanages for example? That was what Lakshamananda Saraswati was doing, and that was why he was murdered by Christian fundamentalists.
>> About the Swami murder, we still have no solid evidence to prove it was Christians behind the incident except for the arrest of two World Vision workers.
We won’t really have “solid evidence” till courts acknowledge it — neither that he was murdered by Christian fundamentalists, or that the retaliatory attacks were carried out by VHP.
My question remains: how do you think the proselytizers should cope with attempts to stop them from lying? By murdering the swamiji and other innocents as they have done?
>>I am not talking about playing by the rules of any fundamentalists but to protect the freedom and human rights. That everybody should have freedom to preach their religion and join any other religion as they please
Whose definition of “freedom” is it to allow proselytizers a free run? May surely be of white Christians funding proselytism in places like India, but it definitely is not a universally accepted definition. Not by people of oriental cultures, not by people like Gandhi. In fact, a pro-proselytism stand is actually anti-religious-freedom, and anti-human-rights, because proselytism seeks to destroy religious diversity, and thereby the very need for religious freedom.
>>The Church gets one more number, the convert gets monetary benefits. Both are happy. Why should the rest of people have any issues with that?
Let us consider some parallels.
A hooker gets a customer and therefore some money, the customer gets some sex, and therefore is happy. Why should any one (including the Church) have any issues with that? But as we know, prostitution is outlawed even in white Christian majority countries that otherwise “respect” “freedoms”.
Likewise, a drug peddler gets some money, and a drug addict gets a shot of the narcotic, both are happy. Why should any one have issues with that?
A voter gets some money from a politician, and a politician gets a vote. Both are happy. Why should the practice be legislated against?
I see Christians not getting worked up about the above, but getting a lot worked up about opposition to the fanatical proselytism business of annihilating other faiths. Why?
>>I would edit that to “If we want peace, we must peacefully fight proselytism.
Sure, I am all for it. The murdered swamiji was conducting a peaceful fight. He was countering proselytizer inducements by running charities of his own for the benefit of local people. The first step to making sure the fight remains peaceful is to stop the violent proselytizers in their tracks.
Sandeep, a comment of mine is awaiting moderation. Can you check?
Hi Jo,
>>First of all, what are the attempts being done to stop the proselytizers from lying?
Like running orphanages for example? That was what Lakshamananda Saraswati was doing, and that was why he was murdered by Christian fundamentalists.
>> About the Swami murder, we still have no solid evidence to prove it was Christians behind the incident except for the arrest of two World Vision workers.
We won’t really have “solid evidence” till courts acknowledge it — neither that he was murdered by Christian fundamentalists, or that the retaliatory attacks were carried out by VHP.
My question remains: how do you think the proselytizers should cope with attempts to stop them from lying? By murdering the swamiji and other innocents as they have done?
>>I am not talking about playing by the rules of any fundamentalists but to protect the freedom and human rights. That everybody should have freedom to preach their religion and join any other religion as they please
Whose definition of “freedom” is it to allow proselytizers a free run? May surely be of white Christians funding proselytism in places like India, but it definitely is not a universally accepted definition. Not by people of oriental cultures, not by people like Gandhi. In fact, a pro-proselytism stand is actually anti-religious-freedom, and anti-human-rights, because proselytism seeks to destroy religious diversity, and thereby the very need for religious freedom.
>>The Church gets one more number, the convert gets monetary benefits. Both are happy. Why should the rest of people have any issues with that?
Let us consider some parallels.
A hooker gets a customer and therefore some money, the customer gets some sex, and therefore is happy. Why should any one (including the Church) have any issues with that? But as we know, prostitution is outlawed even in white Christian majority countries that otherwise “respect” “freedoms”.
Likewise, a drug peddler gets some money, and a drug addict gets a shot of the narcotic, both are happy. Why should any one have issues with that?
A voter gets some money from a politician, and a politician gets a vote. Both are happy. Why should the practice be legislated against?
I see Christians not getting worked up about the above, but getting a lot worked up about opposition to the fanatical proselytism business of annihilating other faiths. Why?
>>I would edit that to “If we want peace, we must peacefully fight proselytism.
Sure, I am all for it. The murdered swamiji was conducting a peaceful fight. He was countering proselytizer inducements by running charities of his own for the benefit of local people. The first step to making sure the fight remains peaceful is to stop the violent proselytizers in their tracks.
Ot
Like running orphanages for example? That was what Lakshamananda Saraswati was doing, and that was why he was murdered by Christian fundamentalists.
Running orphanages is good. But I am unsure of the innocense of Lakshamananda Saraswati. From what I read, that is not the only thing he was doing. During the previous riots at Orissa in December 2007, he was openly inciting violence among Hindus to burn Christian houses and churches. Perhaps that could be the reason why he was targeted (for other who take bait, I am not saying his killing is justified because of this), if at all it was committed by Christian fundamentalists, but news reports say that it is Maoists. Times of India reported on August 30 that it was a Maoist outfit, People’s Liberation Guerrilla Army, which was behind the murders.
We won’t really have “solid evidence” till courts acknowledge it — neither that he was murdered by Christian fundamentalists, or that the retaliatory attacks were carried out by VHP.
That is right. But just like you have reasons to believe that Swami was killed by Christians because of his anti-conversion activities, there are reasons to believe that the violence was incited by VHP because the Swami himself had close tie-ups with VHP and used to incite Hindus to resort on violence to fight Christians.
My question remains: how do you think the proselytizers should cope with attempts to stop them from lying? By murdering the swamiji and other innocents as they have done?
That question has relevance only when it is proven that it was indeed them (evangelists) behind the attacks, hence I skipped it earlier. If you want my opinion on it, murder or violence is not the answer to cope with anything. Be it Christian or Hindu.
In fact, a pro-proselytism stand is actually anti-religious-freedom, and anti-human-rights, because proselytism seeks to destroy religious diversity, and thereby the very need for religious freedom.
I wouldn’t totally agree with that because proselytism doesn’t deny the rights of other religions to preach themselves or getting people into their fold. Hence there is no anti-religious-freedom or anti-human-rights part involved. It leaves to the choice of the individual, it doesn’t deny the choice of the individual thus there is no anti-human-rights thing involved.
Likewise, a drug peddler gets some money, and a drug addict gets a shot of the narcotic, both are happy. Why should any one have issues with that? A voter gets some money from a politician, and a politician gets a vote. Both are happy. Why should the practice be legislated against?
Good point.
In my last comment, I agreed with you on this: “If buying voters is a criminal offece in India, then we should probably ask for making law for buying converts a criminal offence too. And not just “converts” but “re-converts” also.”
“conversions by offering money, or by arm power should be banned” but “conversions by preaching and learning about a religion should be allowed”. And the current ban on religious conversion in some states in India should define this difference.
Sandeep, just checking if my comment, posted in the morning, went to spam box. Please check.
Hello Jo,
>>he was openly inciting violence among Hindus to burn Christian houses and churches.
That’s what Christian fundamentalists claim; we do not have solid evidence for that. What I hear is that it is the Christian proselytizers who were openly inciting violence against local Hindus; in fact, there were several attempts to kill the Swamiji, he survived them.
I’m not impressed with this stalinist tactic of branding someone evil before hanging him. I notice that Christians like you are very liberal with your allegations (and sometimes abuse) against Hindu organizations, offering no “solid evidence” whatsoever for your claims, but are prone to rushing to rationalize the crimes of Christian fundamentalists by claiming that the other side is evil. It is as if Christians are lily-white, but Hindus are always looking for an excuse to kill. That sort of characterization of people, far from indicating open-mindedness and reasonableness, springs actually from prejudice.
(Sandeep, I’m splitting my response into multiple posts because your moderation system is screwing things up)
Hello Jo,
>>But just like you have reasons to believe that Swami was killed by Christians because of his anti-conversion activities, there are reasons to believe that the violence was incited by VHP
Fair enough. But if you have only “your reasons” to believe that Swamiji was evil incarnate and therefore deserved to be murdered, or that VHP was incited the violence, it is reasonable to keep these beliefs to yourself in the interest of fact-based discussions. If you insist that _your_ claims must be accepted as fact, then you need to answer why Christian fundamentalists murdered a Swmaji who was running orphanges for the poor.
Hello Jo
>>I wouldn’t totally agree with that because proselytism doesn’t deny the rights of other religions to preach themselves or getting people into their fold
Again, whose notion of religious “rights” is that you keep insisting on being accepted as “universal”?
Well, religious “rights” and “freedoms” as you define maybe Western (read Christian) notions, but the Indic and oriental notions of the same are different. In India, religious freedom means each religious group autonomously managing its affairs, and respecting and not interfering with others, including for proselytism purposes. Obviously Western Chrstianity does not believe in such a peaceful notion of rights, because it believes it has a God-given mandate to convert all of the world to Christianity. In fact, the current Western notion of religious rights is fairly self-serving. They believed in no such right as long as their faith could be imposed through bloodshed — entire civilizations and cultures were wiped out in the Americas and Africa by proselytizers. In a changed, more civilized world (some of which change was indeed brought about by liberal, free-thinking Christians), they found such methods unviable (you have to cope with people like Gandhi) so a new notion of “religious freedom” was invented that still privileged proselytizing faiths.
It requires a change of mindset, and truly liberal thinking, to be able to look at proselytism and religious rights the way non-Western, non-Christian cultures do it. In fact, there are a few Chrstians here and there seeing the light. You’ll find this example illuminating:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/feb/25apology.htm
That’s what Christian fundamentalists claim; we do not have solid evidence for that.
My statement, “he was openly inciting violence among Hindus to burn Christian houses and churches”, was not based on “my reasons”, but based on news reports. You can refer to this article to see that (but then, I know Tehelka is seen as evil among the Hindutva groups).
I don’t see this conversation taking us to anywhere except for the same old waters. I continued this in hope of reaching a common ground, and in the process I have admitted the prloblems within my religious community, but you, unfortunately, see evil only on one side.
Jo
Can you please tell me what the missioneries are doing in India? Why cannot they leave us alone?If they want to practice christianity, why cannot they do it in their own country? Why are they here in the first place? See, no missionories, no problems. Simple as that.
In Australia, 75% of Christians do not follow Christianity, they go to church only for marriage, etc. The missionories have plenty of souls to harvest here and other developed countries. Leave our tribes and our Dalits alone. If we have a caste system, it is our problem, and nobody else’s, thank you
I pray to God to save us from the soul savers- as somebody said!
Christianity is the most ridiculous relegion in the world- Voltaire
If I have the power, I will kick out all missionories from India-Gandiji
Regards
Hi Jo,
>>My statement, “he was openly inciting violence among Hindus to burn Christian houses and churches”, was not based on “my reasons”, but based on news reports.
Newspaper reports do not constitute “solid evidence”. In fact, courts have been discounting them. Recall that back in late 90’s, following the murder of Australian proselytizer Graham Staines, there was a lot of brouhaha about VHP men gangraping a nun in a moving car. The reports turned out to be falsehood. This was followed by another alleged instance of murder of a Chrstian couple by VHP in Orissa. Turned out their own relative killed him.
Proselytizers in India are adept at manipulating the media. Not my “my reasons” alone, you might want to look at this book written by an Indian Christian:
“Strong Religion, Zealous Media: Christianity’s handshake with media in India”
http://christianwatchindia.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/strong-religion-zealous-media-christianitys-handshake-with-media-in-india/
>>I continued this in hope of reaching a common ground, and in the process I have admitted the prloblems within my religious community, but you, unfortunately, see evil only on one side.
That is not