How Slayers are Sainted
Friday, 4. September 2009 - 2:55 AM
I rarely watch news channels. I’d rather go to a local car tinkering garage if I was that desperate for noise. I made an exception today because I fully wanted to experience the expected orgy of insanity that I was sure would be unleashed when a guy like YSR dies. The Congress party and its stooge, the media, continue to be busy trying to outdo each other: Andhra strongman! Leader of the masses! Irreplacable Loss! Mascot of good governance! Good Doctor! Healer-Chief Minister! Colossus!
The process of anointing YSR from Y S Rajashekhara Reddy to St. Samuel is underway with full steam.
The martyrdom frenzy that the media is whipping up is a worse epidemic than Swine Flu. Only, this time, the focus is a (dead) human being. The verdict is unanimous: St. Samuel, St. Samuel, St. Samuel! There’s absolutely no scope for an iota of dissent, no space to dissect this man’s past…but there are some unalterable universals like the evil that men do lives after them… Only, we fail to detect a trace of the public good that YSR did over his long political career.
This superbly-researched piece (link thanks: Ravikiran) written when he first became the CM of Andhra YSR’s reveals some drops of the blood he had on his hands. Just the bits that trace his bloody rise to power.
The man is anything but a vendor of humane visages. His rise in politics has been accompanied by more bloodshed than that of any other politician in this state. Not bloodshed for some avowed ‘higher cause’, but bloodshed for the narrowest possible cause: the rise of one individual to political power and prominence. The recent elections may very well have meant many things in terms of popular aspirations, and one has no desire to be cynical on that score. But in the matter of the change of helmsmen, it has merely replaced a man who would find nothing too crooked if it is in his political interest, with one who would find nothing too brutal…Today YSR wishes to be seen as a politician who has responded to the needs of farmers and is determined to do well by them, but in the nearly three decades of his political life, he has not been instrumental in adding one acre of assured irrigation to the parched lands of the constituency that has again and again returned him or his brother (when YSR chose to go to parliament instead) to the state sssembly.
But the foundation stone was laid by his father, Raja Reddy.
Cuddapah has deposits of the mineral barytes, which was once upon a time not a highly priced mineral. One of the mining leases was held by Venkatasubbaiah of the balija caste. Raja Reddy joined him as a junior partner/supervisor (it is not clear which), reportedly because Venkatasubbaiah believed he would be useful in controlling the workmen. Round about the mid-1970s, however, it was discovered that barytes has use in petroleum refining, and its price shot up. Raja Reddy wanted Venkatasubbaiah to hand over the mining lease to him and go. A prominent CPI leader and writer, Gajjela Malla Reddy, brokered a deal whereby Venkatasubbaiah would take Rs 11 lakh and leave the mining lease to Raja Reddy. Venkatasubbaiah refused, and was killed. The mining lease, passed into YSR’s hands.
For many years in the later half of the 1980s and the early half of the 1990s, YSR’s barytes mining operation was the subject of one scandal after another. Lease – or sub- lease, after barytes mining became formally the monopoly of the A P Mineral Development Corporation, only to be sub-leased to the same previous lessees – would be taken for a certain extent, but many times more land around would be mined…. a villager, Vivekanandam, whose private land of 1.8 acres was also sub-leased to YSR by the Corporation. Though that man went to court and obtained an injunction against the sub-lease, YSR continued with the mining and took away mineral worth Rs 5 crore. The maternal uncle of the said Vivekanandam, a retired government employee, Rajagopal, set out to Hyderabad, to express his protest to the then chief minister Janardhan Reddy, and to move the high court again. The old man was set upon by a gang in the middle of the state’s capital, and had his hands and legs broken. This was as recently as 1992.
The article piles detail upon detail of YSR’s atrocity-ridden rise in politics, which I recommend you read in full. “Swaminomics” Aiyar had also written a similar “profile” of YSR, drawing copiously from this same piece.
But today, this is how the Indian Express documents the “rise of YSR.” Perhaps the most barefaced lie lies in this paragraph that talks about his “achievements.”
Reddy developed the Cuddapah region by pumping in funds and creating a solid infrastructure, making the constituency its neighbors’ envy.
The infrastructure is so solid that even after three decades of YSR rule there, not one acre of land can be irrigated and/or tilled in Cuddapah. Truly the subject of envy. It takes tremendous guts for the Indian Express to impute stupidity to its readers. But then, the Slimes can’t be far away. Although it hasn’t fudged facts as openly as the Spindian Express, it has honoured him with various epithets such as people’s leader, colossus of Andhra Pradesh, and so on. The less said about CNN-IBN, NDTV, and similar party organs, the better.
What exactly generated this rabid media mania is common knowledge: YSR was perhaps the favourite of HQ. He “revived” the Congress party’s fortunes and finances with the stunning 2004 victory and showed consistently high performance, enough to warrant a sufficiently orgasmic obituary. Andhra Pradesh holds the record for garnering maximum central funding ever received thanks to this tireless (recently deceased) leader of the masses. Even if you excuse the media for its sloppy reporting and complete ignorance and/or suppression of YSR’s violent past, why does it conceal his more recent transgressions? From corruptions too numerous to count to his son’s brazen usurping of land, the Satyam scandal (where his family was allegedly involved), mining scam, and his attempts to break the back of Ramoji Rao.
But monetary scams are pretty mild in YSR’s long list of evils. He was, true to the Congress tradition, a communal Chief Minister. Andhra Pradesh is one of the few states to still retain very strong Hindu ethos. As soon as YSR took over, he showed what Samuel Reddy was capable of. From undamming a flood of Evangelism across the state to trying to inject Evangelist poison in Tirupathi to successfully selling temple lands in the Godavari region to banning the Da Vinci Code to making Christian pilgrimages at taxpayer expense, Samuel Reddy displayed exemplary communal behaviour. I’m merely speculating, but perhaps this is also one of the reasons he earned the special graces of Our Lady from Rome living in Delhi. Which is why the entire apparatus of the Indian state was instantly summoned to frantically locate YSR the moment he went missing. Wish they had acted with even 10% of YSR-aroused speed, efficiency, and effectiveness when Bombay was besieged. An indicator of sorts that some mentalities will never change: post-YSR’s crash, our leaders want Satellite phones in the flight/chopper each time they embark on such “flying” visits. Again, at taxpayer expense.
On a personal note, a predictable but immediate retort I’ve received today for pointing out YSR’s past is this: even Narendra Modi is a murderer but you praise him for his achievements in Gujarat’s development. This argument is non-contextual, baseless, and hypocritical both factually and logically. As I’ve noted earlier in this blog, every investigation against Modi has actually yielded lesser and lesser chances of culpability in the 2002 riots. Even if he was culpable, how does it erase YSR’s bloody past? If you so easily close your eyes to judgments and reports showing Modi in positive light, why do you find it so tough to digest YSR’s record of brualities? While Gujarat’s remarkable economic achievements are well-documented and verifiable (see this solid post), YSR’s “development projects” are infected with mutations of the same Congress garibi hatao virus. Besides, compared with the central government aid that Modi and YSR have each garnered, Andhra Pradesh hasn’t attained growth remotely comparable to that of Gujarat. Blind hatred of Modi yields nothing except heads nodding in approval in charmed circles.
Hardly a few hours since YSR’s death was confirmed, the disgraceful but expected succession battle has begun. Again, entirely faithful to the Congress party’s culture. Family loyalists (not the First Family) have already decided to anoint his son, Jagan Mohan Reddy as the CM-in-waiting. Blood is waiting to be spilled. Also, the son is not even a member of the AP assembly. Exciting times await Andhra Pradesh.
Perhaps the ugliest footnote on YSR’s death is the decision to rename the Kadapa (or Cuddapah) district as YSR district in his “honour.” Kadapa is a corruption of the Telugu word, Gadapa, meaning threshold. Geographically, Kadapa is surrounded on three sides by the Nallamala and Palakonda hills and acts like a gateway (or threshold) from the north to Tirupathi. This region, which witnessed spectacular prosperity under the Vijayanagar rule, abounds with spiritual richness, and is home to people like Mahayogi Vemana, Annamacharya, and Potuluri Veerabrahmam will now be renamed in the “honour” of a ruthless murderer who mowed down innocent people in his quest for personal power.
YSR isn’t worth our tears.
4. September 2009 - 4:15 AM
There is a Vatican bulletin out in this fellow’s favor.
But very well written Sandeep.
Thank you Sir
4. September 2009 - 7:51 AM
Good riddance. I am hoping that the King of corruption, the TN CM, MK and his cabinet along with the antihindu Fatso, Amma, will take a similar helicopter flight soon.
4. September 2009 - 9:00 AM
Finally some sanity.
The news channels are going overboard.
Jesus bless us all.
4. September 2009 - 11:06 AM
Our Media is doing whats its paid for doing. BTW as usual good one from you.
4. September 2009 - 11:07 AM
Jai Ho rAavaNa samhArI! Sri Ram!
I distributed Samosas and sweets today to friends. Fitting that he was consumed by the Srisaila Mallikarjuna blessed forests and the hill which is aptly named Rudrakonda.
Hindus should take up this cleansing job and complete the daivakaryam that has already begun.
4. September 2009 - 12:09 PM
I would have completely agreed to your blog if it was secular not anti Christian. Why do you need to put emphasis on dead CM Christian’s name?.You seem to be biased on certain aspects.But of course its your opinion and this is mine.
4. September 2009 - 12:55 PM
OT:
Who is this woman, and what is she doing with Sandeep Pandey:
http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/sep/04/slide-show-1-the-iron-lady-of-manipur.htm
4. September 2009 - 1:04 PM
Of course yaar they are taking us From Tainthood to Sainthood: http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2008/10/from-tainthood-to-sainthood.html
?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ???? ????
4. September 2009 - 1:05 PM
Here is a question for proselytism supporters:
If Lord Jesus Christ favored multiplying his flock by conversions, why did his plan for one of his most loyal servants not include a peaceful end for him in this world? (It was a gory as can be). So maybe the lord actually prefers secularism over fundamentalism.
Hindu leaders need to take this question into areas evangelized by YSR’s son-in-law.
4. September 2009 - 1:22 PM
Good one Sandeep. I was waiting to read something real after two days of continuous sainting of YSR from every side.
There was no reason for us, and our media to have gone crazy behind this person. I saw a few Telugu channels interviewing spineless people, who were crying their souls out and declaring him the most prolific Andhraite of the day, and its a huge loss to lose him!!
If not anything, we should stop reacting with so much frenzy to at least the accidents. Accidents can happen to anyone at any time! There was nothing in this ‘special’ occasion, except that a chief minister was involved in it.
Though I considered it a shame on India to have ‘lost’ touch with a chief minister for over 24 hours, I am not saddened at the tragic end of this man hunt, at all.
4. September 2009 - 2:13 PM
Srik, it seems you’re addicted to listening bad about people. You better take off to a rehab or your family might suffer a lot in the long run.
4. September 2009 - 2:35 PM
Perfectly written Sandeep! Good riddance.
As mentioned above, it is fitting that the event happened on Rudrakonda, in Shrisailam area (which is the same hill-range as Tirumala) and because of nature, and not because of any human-action.
Hoping that this will instill some fear in the hearts of people wanting to continue using TTD funds for evangelization.
4. September 2009 - 2:49 PM
>>it is fitting that the event happened on Rudrakonda, in Shrisailam area (
I personally do not think it significant that the chopper crashed in that area, but Christian communalists, who believe in their god-given right to convert people of other faiths, and that Jesus favors those who so convert, need to answer a few questions. Why was it Jesus’s plan that a chopper carrying one of the church’s most loyal soldiers should crash in a hill range considered sacred by unbelievers, and crash particularly on a hill named ‘Rudrakonda’ , which translates to “Siva’s Hill”? After all, Christian missionaries are not so poor in Hinduism as not to know that Siva is the Hindu god of destruction. Christian fundamentalists attach a lot of importance to symbolism (god is sending signs!) so they cannot conveniently ignore the disturbing symbolism inherent in YSR’s untimely demise.
4. September 2009 - 2:58 PM
I guess this is one of your best, passionate posts of recent times.
Thank you, sir.
4. September 2009 - 3:35 PM
Hi Sandeep,
I come from a place close to YSR’s native place. Have been a staunch supporter of TDP for many years till around 2 years ago.
About your article.. one thing not clear is how you could say he is involved in killings. A known fact in Kadapa district is that while the district is bloody with political killings his hands have been largely clean. In the political maze he has ofcourse supported any congress sympathiser whatever their credentials are from wherever in the state. He was never limited to Kadapa nor he operated only from there. Obvious proof to that statement is to just look around and see how many congress supporters across AP support him as a leader even from before he became chief minister. He did not have any power those days as he was the affected party under many congress governments and the time of PV Narasimha Rao at Delhi. So it is grossly wrong to make a statement based on his father’s past that YSR was having blood on his hands.
Coming to rags to riches story, yes it is a well known fact that many politicians including YSR (with huge debts before becoming CM), Naidu (with a starting 2 acre land) and many others in india all have rags to riches story. And it is anyones guess from where they earned what they have today. Lesser we talk about it the better it is.
Media is in a frenzy. They neither are anointing anyone nor mouthpieces of Congress or BJP. My belief is they just want TRP ratings. So the more sensational the story is, the more emotional the discussion is, you and i get glued more to the TV. That is the bottomline.
But why do you think he came to power fighting all odds of Telangana movement, Chiranjeevi and anti incumbancy..? No one can deny that he is the one who always wanted to do something for downtrodden. One could argue it is all for votes. In the end all politicians are for votes otherwise they probably will do social work by not being in politics. End of the day, common man has been taken care of like never before. Especially agrarian community. Not only because of freebeeis bit also because of subsidies which will encourage them to go to newer ways of doing things. I, coming from a farming background was keenly waiting for collective farming scheme he was about to launch. Please note the big success in Brazilian economy especially around agriculture is because of collective farming as scale does matter a lot in agriculture.
Lastly, YS Raja Reddy was never hailed by anyone in AP nor in Kadapa as a noble person. On the contrary his followers were hardcore palegars (in reference to Vijayanagar times) and that is not YSR’s fault. Infact he has not even touched those who killed YSRaja Reddy. People who killed YSRaja Reddy are free today roaming the very streets in Kadapa district.
So to show your anguish on the coverage by channels donot bemean a person who was a better leader than many who is still far from ideal. But then who is?
Regards
- K
4. September 2009 - 4:06 PM
Hi Sandeep,
Jai Shri Ram. I felt very happy after going thru your mail. I as VHP leader fought with him several times directly on TTD issue. Now I got some base so that I can show these posts to several anti-hindus, YSR fans, yesubiddalu etc. I will be grateful if you notify me henceforth if you post such type of articles so that not only I will show to as many as possible also you will get good traffic.
jaihind
4. September 2009 - 4:12 PM
Lol,
Seems like Amit Verma types reply to blog posts in the names of other posters.
4. September 2009 - 4:50 PM
there is a saying, and I translate it to kannada, “satta hasu ge haalu jaasti ante”.How apt!
He isn’t worth our tears, yes, but one can’t rejoice somebody’s demise either!
4. September 2009 - 5:05 PM
I agree 100% that samuel Rajasekhara Reddy was a favorite of sonia because he was a christian.
Under his rule Andhra which has one of the most Dharmic and good natured Hindu populace was brought under the grip international Chriistian evangelist lobby.
It was extremely threatening
Corruption, Conversion spree. Thirupathi under threat ,christian Pilgrimage subsidy, reservations for Muslims and Christians,alienation of temple lands,attack on Media like Enadu group,eliminating opponents all these were the characteristic of the man and his regime.
Are they good christian values?
The Church of South India in its obituary says that samuel was a ‘Good Christin’
Now does every one know who is a good christian?
The English media is largely owned by the evengelist and anti-national lobby .
So we can expect such and more monkey-dances from them.
But the Hindus are becoming vigilant.
R.Sridharan
4. September 2009 - 5:25 PM
Sandeep,
good to hear a sane voice!!
Yogi
4. September 2009 - 5:52 PM
Please donot think all Christians support people like YSR
4. September 2009 - 6:26 PM
This opinion is no better than that of the channels who chose to say good; its all a matter of which side you are on.
I’d definitely want to remind all that no good was ever done by any saint rather than preach principles which never work
4. September 2009 - 6:56 PM
Sandeep, excellent analysis. A good antidote to the sycophancy we have seen in the media.
In India we have some very undesirable political leaders who survive through extreme populism. Lalu Prasad Yadav did a lot of harm to Bihar; see what a difference his exit made. If he died in office the media would be staging similar sentimental circus praising him as the tiger of bihar and whatnot. The media is definitely on the side of corruption and evil. YSR was be going the same way as Lalu. The split in votes because of Chiru helped him, but the lure of his populism was also wearing off.
But I do not agree with peolpe who think conversions will end now because there will be no government support. But no government can work against the interests of YSR faction or Sonia. His son may even become chief minister.
4. September 2009 - 8:20 PM
>>This opinion is no better than that of the channels who chose to say good; its all a matter of which side you are on.
Hi SV, your understanding of blogs and the media seems to be a bit fuzzy. There is a vast difference between a blog run by an individual and an institution like the media run by several people. Generally, in free and liberal societies (not communist or Islamist ones), media is expected to project diversity of opinion, and not blatantly take sides for whatever reason (because the government is bribing it, for example). It is _individuals_ who “take sides”, if you will, just as you have taken a stand on the side of unprincipledness. I’d contend that this unprincipled nature of the media is a serious problem, because it shuts out dissent and even truth and produces a society of morons in which everybody takes the same side — the media’s.
4. September 2009 - 11:07 PM
I fail to understand if you really know the ground reality to write this “ignorance”. We say and agree that ignorance is a bliss, and I cannot agree much after reading through this article. Articulate words cannot make truth look like a lie
4. September 2009 - 11:37 PM
Sandeep,
This is my first visit to your blog. I like the way you present your views.
When I hear people say in their FB statuses that YSR is “beloved” & “will remain in their hearts”, I thank God that I do not possess such a large heart to mourn murderers.
Great work…
Prasad
5. September 2009 - 12:12 AM
Sandeep,
Check this article by Aditya Sinha in expressbuzz
http://expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Don%E2%80%99t+let+this+son+rise&artid=eboC6hzS8I8=&SectionID=d16Fdk4iJhE=&MainSectionID=HuSUEmcGnyc=&SectionName=aVlZZy44Xq0bJKAA84nwcg==&SEO=
“Jagan would also have to prove whether he can measure up to YSR the visionary, as Sonia described him. YSR was certainly visionary in that he could see just how much money the Congress would need to contest the Lok Sabha elections this year, and not just in Andhra alone, but across the entire nation. The affluence of Andhra allowed him to be a visionary; the only states to come close to AP in wealth are Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra (another reason why the Congress wants to revive itself in these states). “
5. September 2009 - 12:43 AM
I’ve heard arguments against allegations that YSR is a factionist (read murderer), i’ve heard arguments that claim he had a change of heart when he saw rural distress in AP during Naidu’s rule. What no ones talks about is his involvement in the communal violence that occurred in Hyderabad during the early 90′s when Chenna Reddy was the CM. YSR and N.Janardhan Reddy were the prime architects of this slaughter. They colluded with MIM and killed hapless hindus in the Old city. No one talks about it, because ofcourse congress would never slaughter muslims, only modi does that. When u read between the lines of what he says/does u’ll walk away with the feeling that he puts this whole compassionate BS to please Sonia Gandhi(who I respect by the way). He has that feudal mindset…One of his answers to Naidu when in assembly was something along the lines of ‘I never had to ride a cycle like you’(sounds more harsh in Telugu)…this coming from someone whose heart goes out to the cycle riding poor.
5. September 2009 - 2:39 AM
It is not even 48 hrs that man had departed and we have started counting his deeds, what beter are you doing like the media just other side of the coin.
Sandeep- would seriously suggest you need to be human-being to have empathy and then probabibly can aspire to be Indian.
5. September 2009 - 3:09 AM
Ravi,
You’re right. I’m inhuman.
5. September 2009 - 7:37 AM
… I usually don’t like to criticize someone once he’s dead, unless the person was really “evil” … I’m not too sure if YSR was evil personified, or just another clown in the hands of higher evil …
Just wanted to add, however, what Chris Hitchens once said of another Christist bigot – Jerry Faldwell – “IF YOU COULD GIVE HIM ENEMA, YOU COULD BURY HIM IN A MATCHBOX” ….so, so, soooooooo apt.
5. September 2009 - 7:38 AM
And Ravi, what about the those whom this dearly departed man sent to an early death? Where were you then?
Ravi, you are an ignorant troll. Stupid heartless gullible ignorant troll. Now kindly FO. Thank you.
5. September 2009 - 8:43 AM
As a chief minister of a large and important state, this man should have been more respectful of his own position and the lives of people around him. It is clear that the helicopter took off in bad weather and he did not bother to check whether it was safe or not to fly at that time. Also the fact that not one single soul in India could contact him during the flight is a cause of concern.
I’m being impersonal here. I’m talking about the post, rather than the man. A chief minister or any high official has a moral responsibility to stay safe and take no chances.
On the other hand, when karma catches up, I suppose there’s no escape from its consequences.
5. September 2009 - 9:15 AM
As a regular reader of this blog,Offstumped, (and Atanu’s as well) a, I have, at several times, tried to analyze YSR’s politics.
I come from the same district, and the Vivekanandam mentioned in the research piece is my maternal uncle.Mangampeta, the village near Rly.Kodur in Kadapa district has around 90% of the world’s barytes deposits, and used to be an Agrahaaram (a village given to Brahmin scholar families as a gift by Vijayanagara kings).The Govts failed to ensure property rights for the softspoken Brahmins of the village.Neither did the tax payers get the benefit of the rich mineral wealth being exported.Most of the money has gone to a few Reddy families and one Muslim family.
Having said this, having seen YSR grow from a hot headed politician, whose sources of income and political networking possibly included a thriving muscle men outsourcing business for a long time,into some one who has achieved pan-AP popularity and affection of the common people, I feel it is nothing short of a complete transformation.He took several bad habits (a blind eye towards misdeeds of his followers is one of them) to the grave with him, but one can’t deny his impact on the poor in AP, before and after becoming CM.
I have more than enough reasons(including personal ones) to dislike him immensely, but I don’t.Not to the extent I should.Because I have seen the beter side of his personality as well.The 1600-km paadayatra he undertook throughout AP seems to have transformed him as an individual.
By completely painting him in black, some of you are doing the exact opposite of what the mass media is doing.I will try to do an analysis from my perspective, and post a link a here soon. Thanks.
Btw, a few things that researchers won’t know/tell you: He is not Samuel Reddy. His full name is: Yedugoori Sandinti Rajasekhar Reddy.
He was dead against his daughter marrying an evangelist.These events coincided with his father’s murder (Raja Reddy was a true factionist unlike YSR who used faction rivalries to further his agenda), and his son getting into business/financial troubles.
He was born and grew up as a devout protestant (CSI), studied in Catholic institutions, and then saw the Seventh Day Adventist types take control of his entire extended family, especially the women.YSR personally is a devotee of Sri Ventakeswara Swamy, and regularly conducted vedic homams at his home, and when he visited temples.
In his attempts to assuage the guilt feeling (about the Mangampeta brahmins probably) he went to great lengths to identify educated and entrepreneural Brahmins and rewarded them with political favors.I am not saying this is right or it is enough to forgive his misdeeds.Just painting the picture of a complex person prone to guilt trips.
He also tried to balance the appeasement between faiths.AP is probably the only State that offers a subsidy for Manasarovar yatra too.But his role in evangelism’s spread in AP is a bit more complex than what is generally believed.Will get to that point in my analysis this weekend.
The place he crashed nearby is actually called Rudra Koduru, and not Rudrakod or Rudra Konda as the English channels are mispronouncing.But yes, treacherous hills and forests.Even if he’d survived the crash, the wild animals (no one mentioned this fact funnily) would have been a problem.The Naxals would have ran away from the forests within an hour of the news breaking on TV.Apart from 5000 and odd police men, there were thousands of villagers and tribals combing the forest.
5. September 2009 - 9:31 AM
though i opposed his stand on christianity..he was an outstanding personality and highly emotional.no leader in contemporary indian politics matched ysr in helping poor people.thousads of people who got benifited from ysr(before he became cm) still crying… i have many friends with his surname YS-yedugori sandinti(not samuel)..
5. September 2009 - 10:00 AM
@Kumar:
Thanks for adding your detailed comment to the discussion. Appreciate it.
(BTW, would you please leave a space after the periods marking the end of sentences and after commas? Otherwise it is needlessly hard to read. Thank you.)
5. September 2009 - 12:07 PM
Well, YSR is autocratic in many respects, very similar to Indira Gandhi, or modern day Modi. He promoted all his loyal believers, and foes, including savvy Naidu are politically destoryed to bits.
He was sorrounded by bloody hands, but never himself participated in personal vendetta.
He brings awe and inspiration to his side, and ferocity in equal measure to his opponents, that’s what yesteryear monarchs are known for, and he is one, which keeps very large crowds of people rever him.
Critics could say anything, but various accounts confirm he never said no to even his bitter opponents, if they seek his help.
5. September 2009 - 3:01 PM
If he was such an emotional person, why he propose to give few Tirupati hill to evangelists? Did he ? Btw a lot of people are saying he did this and this for poor…! I say with the kind of money he was getting from His business( and reddys from bellary) from temples like tirupati and last but not the least evangelists organizations that is the least he could have done. But then indian people have a good habit of being indebted even for small favor and paying more later on.
Few days ago when Janaradan Reddy donated some 45 crore to tirupati i was wondering how come, now that i know little bit more about how tirupati money is used it dose make some sense. I suppose that some way of converting black money in to white or some pay off.
5. September 2009 - 5:55 PM
Sandeep.. very good one.. but do you see, that after YSR, there would be any remedy for hindu sufferings? The present CM roasaiah seems to be a christian.. and already the noise for YSR’s son has started raising..
whichever person comes next, i feel, there wont be any difference though..
5. September 2009 - 8:39 PM
the total toll of people died of shock reached 348, mass hysteria indeed, people call him son of soil, and ailing vajpayee testimony should atleast make few barking BJP supporters shut their mouth on a mass leader. I understand your problem comes because he is a christian, and you paint so many hues only end up in foul. shame!
5. September 2009 - 9:29 PM
Although it may be true that YSR is as bad as any other politician in India, what made him abhored by so many people is that he tried to convert Andhra Pradesh into YesuPradesh. There was someone who commented above about being secular and not attacking the christian aspect of YSR. This pseudo secular mentality of so called intellectuals is what has caused Hinduism to be in the chaos it is in today. Christian missionaries had only one thing in mind; to convert or kill every single human being on the face of earth to Christianity. Even muslims pale in comparison. Muslims were actually not like Christians; going around and enticing everyone (or threatening) into converting. Other than few exceptions like Ghajani Mohammed, there was no INSTITUTIONALIZED conversion program in Islam.
What went wrong with Hindus was the fact that we allowed the English and other Europeans to conquer us, systematically erase our cultural strength, ridicule our customs and create an enormous doubt in our minds about the beliefs that we held for ages. They played on our psyche and we surrendered to the vices of western culture. We were brainwashed to such an extent that we don’t even call ourselves Hindus anymore just because we want to be considered secular not extreme rightists. What is wrong in identifying ourselves as Hindus, if the strongest country like America calls itself a nation under god(read Christian)? If America can call itself secular and Christian, why can’t we call ourselves as Hindu and secular?
Congress is all about one family (Nehru) which was never a Hindu family and since we allowed them since independence to rule, they systematically ruined our cultural thread that tied us all together. YSR is just one small branch of this tree that was planted by the Vatican to convert the whole nation. If you are still in doubt, look at what happened to the native Indians of America. All of their beliefs, cultures, religion (if you want to call it that) have disappeared or almost disappeared. All of South America is the same case. When the Benedict became pope he stated that his agenda now is to see that Asia sees the light (meaning converting to Christianity) in the darkness that has enveloped Asia for long (meaning Hinduism and other ANCIENT EASTERN religions).
So the anger against YSR is truely against the conversion activity he stood for and the systematic destruction of Hindu identity that he practiced. It has nothing to do with the good or bad he did; which is no different from any Naidu or Chiru or Karunanidhi et al.
Jai Hind
5. September 2009 - 9:50 PM
Rosaiah belongs to the vysya (bania) community of AP. A capable person both politically and personally.Preferred to come in to the cabinet as an MLC this time. Close to retirement. And btw, its Venkateswara Swamy and Vasavi Kanyakumari for him, not Jesus.
I posted Part-1 of my summing up of YSR’s life and times.
http://kumarsbol.blogspot.com/2009/09/ysr-19492009-born-again-politician-1.html
The Telugu papers are putting the toll at 300+, over 90% of them heart attacks, and the rest suicides. Interestingly, the toll is just 1 from YSR’s home district Kadapa. Warangal, the hot bed of Telangana feeling has over 25 deaths in 3 days.People seem to be jumping off their Indiramma homes, holding Arogya Sree or Pension cards. I think there is some thing going on here. Sure, several people died, but some of the normal deaths are also probably being reported as grief and shock related.
Or, there could be a surprisingly high number of hypertensive people in AP, whose hearts are so weak they can’t stand an emotional moment or two. And a good number of people who need mental health assistance, going by their willingness (almost Jihadi like) to end their lives in such a stupid manner.
5. September 2009 - 11:14 PM
It IS a Hindu tradition to not speak ill of the dead etc etc. However, your analysis is as ruthless as it is spot on.
A closer look is definitely in order!
5. September 2009 - 11:31 PM
>>the total toll of people died of shock reached 348, mass hysteria indeed, people call him son of soil
It is said that Marilyn Monroe’s death also triggered suicides. You can verily gauge the greatness of a person by the number wackos who kill themselves after him.
6. September 2009 - 12:54 AM
It’s always good and healthy to remember a kind/righteous/loving person. Don’t fool yourself by talking like this!
6. September 2009 - 1:24 AM
Sandeep, don’t blame Indian Express – all thanks to Mata Sonia and the Congress’ everything critical of Congress is no more visible any more in the paper. They were threatened with sealing of their two important offices in Delhi; because of reasons which are all over in Press Club. Take a clue.
6. September 2009 - 1:26 AM
Anyone one sees Rahul Baba’s big red tilak. I heard that Rahul Baba folded his hand in front of an elderly woman. Sonia mata is a huge bhakt of Durga. She even attended Durga Puja in Bengal. Some of Sonia’s followers even painted her in the image of Durga and she did not object but smiled peacefully at their devotion.
Yes, I know these two have tried their utmost to root out heathenism form India. They have given a green light to every Evangelist across the world to reap a harvest in India, such that the Churches are full of their praises. They have made Christian educational blackmail into a harsh reality. But they never tire of giving speeches to Hindus!!! That must count for something (in the eyes of our dear lord and master). What magnanimity!!
A lesser mortal would be tired out by now, but not these two great benefactors of the Indian nation. Rahul baba and Sonia mata have created more poor people.. oh, i meant helped more poor people than RSS and VHP combined. Sonia mata was an au pair in oxford, what humble beginnings… It is a story of hope and survival against all odds in a hostile (colonized) nation.
Jai Hind!!
6. September 2009 - 1:31 AM
TOI initially reported that there were 67 deaths. Out of this 7 were suicides which means remaining 60 were due to just shock. And son Jagmohan has appealed for restraint.. I can agree that an appeal will influence those fanatic fans to drop suicide plans. But if people are dying of shock how can a call for restraint avoid it?
In my opinion, even today the face of Andhra politics was seen as NTR. So Congress is utilising this moment to project YSR as someone who can match NTR’s stature…. And it is just that the ELM is acting(by over hyping) as per the lady holding the remote….
6. September 2009 - 8:30 AM
It was a conspiracy by Hindu fundies, Hindus have become Jihadis. They bombed the helicopter.
6. September 2009 - 9:23 AM
Hi
Excellent blog!! Must read for every educated Indian (esp. those who voted to Congress in recent elections)
Between… 2 weeks back.. YSR.. has made comic statements on Indian Rian GOD.. Varuna… saying that he had fled thinking Nara Chandrababu is coming to power.. and now that he came in power is again coming back!!
See.. this type of comical comments on Varuna..who is nothing but Sri maha Vishnu is completely un-called for..!! Also, on Tirupati issue.. 2 days back CB Naidu warned YSR not to play politics.. and go insulting the sacred place.. and the aboding diety..! for which this man had.. wily and careless smile..!
I think the VARUNA.. had thought.. he should smile.. and thus this man had seen his end.. where I believe even all parts of his body were not collected for his final burying ceremony..! tHAT IS THE DISGRACEFULL END.. THIS MAN HAS GOT .. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLINGS.. OF thousands..!!
You forgot to mention the 1989-90 religious riots in Hyderabad.. carried it with his hand to de-stabilise the Marri Chenna Reddy govt. in which 150+ people (all Hindus ) lost lifes..!! One will be ashamed to know that this riot started because of the encounter death of a muslim gangster… and today no foul media has any morals to bring justice to the victims family…! Going by Nandita’s FIRAAQ logic.. the family members of those 150 + victims should be bombing entire old city.. and killing the MUSLIMS..!! God save us from the sick/wily souls like Nandita/ Mallika/ Teesta Setalvad and the Media (on whole)!
6. September 2009 - 2:24 PM
>> I think the VARUNA.. had thought.. he should smile.. and thus this man had seen his end..
Little wonder, why the same god laughed at the remaining 4 people (2 pilots and security officers)?
I’m wondering why Advani did not yet meet his karma, for the barbaric Ayodhya incident, and deaths that followed.
6. September 2009 - 2:47 PM
@sandeep: Please learn also taking positive points out of another person. your post and replies to your post shows completely negativism in indian people. please read once Dr.Abdul Kalam’s message about negativeness in indian people. I hope you will learn something useful from his message
Thanks,
6. September 2009 - 3:11 PM
Hello Sandeep,
Biggest problem of our Indians is that we see only money. As soon as any Government gives money to people, people think that this Government is good. I have seen few comments above, where some of our educated Indians are praising Congress leaders for helping poor. You can’t help Poor by giving him money. You can help him by giving opportunities and leave other things to poor people.
If our educated Indians are thinking this way, poor, uneducated people will definitely consider congress as GOD. People are not committing suicide because YSR died, but these poor people are worried about their money.
Sandeep, criticizing is good, but at least show your readers truth. You need to show people that Congress is not giving money from their own pocket, it is tax payers money.
Now finally something on MODI. There is something different about this man. When Diamond workers were bleeding, he didn’t offer any financial help by throwing tax payers money. He offered them to join various courses for free where they will get education to explore new opportunities. Modi creates opprotunities. I hope, one day Indians will know the TRUTH.
Utistha Bharata!
6. September 2009 - 3:13 PM
Smitha jab paap ka ghada bhar jata hai tab..aisa hota hai… YRS bhat tezi see bhara rha tha.. mujhe lagta hi 2-3 babri mazid jasie.. kaan honge tab advani ji YSR ke aas pass pahunchege…
6. September 2009 - 3:48 PM
Hi Sandeep,
Fantastic analysis…..and thanks for the weblinks regarding the sleaze and corruption that this blood thirsty scum (YSR) indulged in to capture power…..
Also like this sentence………….”home to people like Mahayogi Vemana, Annamacharya, and Potuluri Veerabrahmam will now be renamed in the “honour” of a ruthless murderer who mowed down innocent people in his quest for personal power.”
6. September 2009 - 5:09 PM
Smita,
I’m wondering why Advani did not yet meet his karma, for the barbaric Ayodhya incident, and deaths that followed.
Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitah – Dharma protects those who protect Dharma.
6. September 2009 - 5:29 PM
Well, one can say those who are loved by Gods, get called early, and also the Sanskrit saying: Paapi chiraayuvu
Folks,
There is no point in talking about Varuna’s smile or Adavni’s sins.Let us learn to look at events rationally.
When one talks about YSR or any other politician being pro-poor, it doesn’t necessarily mean cash assistance, though that could be an important component of help for senior citizens.It is also a policy focus, and the way funds are allocated. While there could be a constructive discussion on which approach is better and the factors governing the success/failure of any program, it doesn’t serve any purpose just railing against any comment that has the word ‘pro-poor’ in it.
FWIW, here’s the second instalment of my three part series on YSR.
http://kumarsbol.blogspot.com/2009/09/ysr-1949-2009-born-again-politician-2.html
6. September 2009 - 6:30 PM
Atanu Dey- FO
Learn from history why we where slaved for 200 years, it is b’cos of illiterate souls like you working on regional and religious vager’s
6. September 2009 - 9:03 PM
@Smitha
No one died during the Ayodhya incident. The riots that followed Ayodhya were not started by Hindus. Get your facts right. And, if you justify Muslims rioting post Ayodhya then I guess going by the same logic all the Hindus of this country should be on streets vying for Muslim blood for the no of temples destroyed by marauding barbaric Islamic invaders.
6. September 2009 - 9:03 PM
All of their beliefs, cultures, religion (if you want to call it that) have disappeared or almost disappeared. All of South America is the same case.
What culture? Culture of human sacrifice? Please there is a BIG difference between civilization such as was found in India with literature, art and “THINKING” and aboriginal cultures of South America and that of the American Indians–which is not to condone what happened to them—
6. September 2009 - 9:13 PM
All of their beliefs, cultures, religion (if you want to call it that) have disappeared or almost disappeared. All of South America is the same case.
What culture? Culture of human sacrifice? Please there is a BIG difference between civilization such as was found in India with literature, art and “THINKING” and aboriginal cultures of South America and that of the American Indians–which is not to condone what happened to them—
Rather one can compare the peaceful spread of Buddhism to Tibet. Tibetans were also violent and warlike tribals, with their bon religion. Buddhism gave them some culture. Just as classical Indian culture (Buddhist) spread peacefully to places like Cambodia and Thailand and gave them something..
6. September 2009 - 9:15 PM
Great post, Sandeep. Unfortunately, Samuel is leaving behind a well-funded crusader army that will now carry out their task with added fervor. Dharma is indeed in trouble in AP.
Excellent observation on sanctification of barbarous slayers. Prime example is how Xavier the Murderer of Goa has become St. Xavier. Every time I see a middle-class Hindu parent preening about how their kid is doing well at the local St Xavier’s convent, I shake my head in despair. Can there be any more dhimmi population than one that reveres such murderers of their ancestors?
Sometimes, I think Hindus and India *deserve* the annihilation of their civilization by the 3M axis. Us, the current inheritors of the finest civilization to have existed on this planet, are NOT worthy of it. If swines do not appreciate pearls and do nothing to preserve and protect them, then obviously the marauding barbarians will loot them and destroy the swine.
6. September 2009 - 9:22 PM
Hey Kumara!
“By deciding for peace instead of violence, YSR ran the risk of losing his tough image in the district. It could have been the dawning of political and emotional maturity in him, or the sight of grand children, or the urgings of Christian priests close to him in a spiritual sense. Whatever be the reasons, the district heaved a sigh of relief, and Naidu claimed victory over faction violence.”
The every mention of christian priests, in the positive sense of spirituality, is enough for me to suspect your motives. Go on brother, this is your time to make a name for yourself with your “transformational theory”.
Also, those who are close to God are not called in this gruesome manner–
1) he died suddenly due to accident(akaala mRtyu),
2) It was somewhere in a forest far from anyone’s help,
3) No one could even find the body till 24 hrs (or more?)
4) His body was not found in one piece– they literally hunted for his head, collected a pair of legs, and some other missing parts,made a complete body, called it YSR’s body and buried it.
5) When people went there to collect his body, maggots and microbes were already busy decomposing his body (so he was definitely NOT a Christian Saint!) and reportedly (not sure how true!) some insects feeding on the bodies attacked even those who had come to collect the body!
Now, I definitely dont believe after all this, that YSR “was called to God” early, whatever your “transformational theory” says.
6. September 2009 - 10:36 PM
Anyone notice the “son of the soil” fellow genuflecting before the gori chamdi. Yes, I know she ‘loves” indians and want to “save” them.
7. September 2009 - 7:55 AM
An excellent post by Sandeep.
And good comments by Kishkindhaa, Kedar, Gujjubhai and many others.
In the midst of it all, that mouthpiece of christian missionaries, max mueller and macaulay, the one using the anagram of ‘liar ass’, has to trample all over native americans, mumbling propaganda of imperial missionaries.
7. September 2009 - 8:19 AM
It has been said that rather than giving food to someone , it is better to impart to him the skills to make him earn his food.
Of course this does not apply in the case of some one who is so disabled as not to be able to learn any skill and the very old.
By imparting such skills we not only create a creative and skilled population, but generate employment and improve the economy.
And most importantly create assets.
Not only that we confer dignity on individuals.
But those politicians who give doles to people are in fact cheating them. Their aim is not to enrich them, raise them socially, educationally and economically but to keep them as bonded labourers.
Can anything be free in this world?
If someone gives something free then he is suspect
Especially in India ,politics is full of corruption
So all this means that the politicians are making a very big pile and are happy to throw a very very small fraction to the unfortunate and ignorant people.
Even that is out of the tax payer’s money.
Also the people including those who receive the doles will lose heavily in the long run as a result of skyrocketing prices which is inevitable.
Of course these politicians have the captive media which on getting it’s share of the crumbs, plays the full band in praising and projecting such politicians as messiahs and saviors.
R.Sridharan
7. September 2009 - 10:06 AM
Kumar,
So the fellow has some kind of revelation and transforms from petty thug into Constantine junior. How is it in any way beneficial to the civilization that is Bharat to fete an evangelist propagator and propagandist such as YSR. The fellow tried to desecrate Tirupati with Churches, started Christian Haj, started state nexus with domestic and foreign Evangelists. All of his Hindu devotional stunts can be summarily dismissed as christian inculturation attempts in light of his other highly egregious and subversive actions.
Constantine is not significant for his humdrum economic policy but rather for the civilization breaking legacy of Christian fascism that he inaugurated on a grand scale. Time to look beyond personal affection and at the bigger historical significance; otherwise say hello to massa’s “loving” thumb
7. September 2009 - 8:59 PM
Incognito says:
An excellent post by Sandeep.
And good comments by Kishkindhaa, Kedar, Gujjubhai and many others.
In the midst of it all, that mouthpiece of christian missionaries, max mueller and macaulay, the one using the anagram of ‘liar ass’, has to trample all over native americans, mumbling propaganda of imperial missionaries.
Well I am not a product of YOUR new politically correct notion that all cultures are “equal”, although I believe in respecting all cultures. Moreover, if you had any reading comprehension you would realize that I am saying that unlike the spread of Hindu and Buddhist cultures in places like Tibet and Cambodia which were peaceful and did not disrupt the local customs and traditions and were hence syncretic, this was not the same way in the Americas, where the native cultures were violently disrupted.
Why should I believe that cultures that did not produce writing were the same as those that did– Some like to live in the stone age and others do not and produce something different. What is imperialist about this? Rather you display your ignorance in lumping everything as the “same” and as “one”. A product of the new political correctness.
7. September 2009 - 9:02 PM
Incognito says:
An excellent post by Sandeep.
And good comments by Kishkindhaa, Kedar, Gujjubhai and many others.
In the midst of it all, that mouthpiece of christian missionaries, max mueller and macaulay, the one using the anagram of ‘liar ass’, has to trample all over native americans, mumbling propaganda of imperial missionaries.
Well I am not a product of YOUR new politically correct notion that all cultures are “equal”, although I believe in respecting all cultures. Moreover, if you had any reading comprehension you would realize that I am saying that unlike the spread of Hindu and Buddhist cultures in places like Tibet and Cambodia which were peaceful and did not disrupt the local customs and traditions and were hence syncretic, this was not the same way in the Americas, where the native cultures were violently disrupted.
Why should I believe that cultures that did not produce writing were the same as those that did– Some like to live in the stone age and others do not and produce something different. What is imperialist about this? Rather you display your ignorance in lumping everything as the “same” and as “one”. A product of the new political correctness which is also dangerous I believe–it is one thing to treat respect everyone with respect but quite another to believe all forms of culture are the “same”.
7. September 2009 - 9:49 PM
In the midst of it all, that mouthpiece of christian missionaries, max mueller and macaulay, the one using the anagram of ‘liar ass’, has to trample all over native americans, mumbling propaganda of imperial missionaries.
I find you too ignorant to be even worthy of comment–little do you realize that your discourse is just “commie” talk disguised in another form–I do not see how I am trampling over “native americans” for saying that unlike Buddhism which spread to cultures which were not literate and gave them something without disrupting the local cuture, but by cultural syncretism, the cultures of native america were destroyed.
People “become” civilized by absorbing civilized cultures–just as countries like Britian were also “civilized” at some point by the Romans–to reduce all human history as the product of “evil imperialists” is an absurd reduction of human history–just as absurd as how Marxists blame everything on the bourgeois…
Moreover, why should I believe that a hunting gathering culture is the same as one that produces a Phidias or the Parthenon? We do not believe that an illiterate man is the same as a literate one –although we believe that he should be given the opportunity to be literate in a just society and that given the opportunity he “will” be literate.
8. September 2009 - 1:25 AM
Kishkindhaa:
Think not that the Kumar refereth to Emperor Constantine for his humdrum economic policy. It seemeth that our friend Kumar hath some sort of link with Christianity. As Constantine had done with the Roman Empire, so did YSR try to do!
Hath fate given him his due time, he would have truly made AP into “christa pradesh.”
Truly, the Constantine of Andhra Pradesh!
8. September 2009 - 2:56 AM
“In the midst of it all, that mouthpiece of christian missionaries, max mueller and macaulay, the one using the anagram of ‘liar ass’, has to trample all over native americans, mumbling propaganda of imperial missionaries.”
Incognito,
Not to be rude ( I don’t know your age and I am not rude to elders) but two can play your game–now you have to twist larissa to make something weird out of it–and what you make of it makes it unrecognizable in terms of the word–you should not have to switch letters of a word to make an anagram. Larissa the user name is from the place where green marble was found to make the wonders of the ancient world.
Now do you know what your name means without twisting it in any way? Incongnito is the english for someone whose identity is not visible. But what about in Latin?
In –the inseparable particle used with adjectives, nouns and participles meaning without, not
cognito from the verb cognoscere–meaning to get to know, study, be familiar with, be acquainted with, recognize, grasp in the sense of grasping a concept (notice how the concept of knowledge implies a grasping or recognition or familiarity)
now attach the particle in front of this verb and you get the participle which describes your ideas– without study, without recognition, without knowledge etc, etc, just as indoctus means unlearned.
Now before you play and tamper with other people’s user name, recognize that you have chosen a fitting participle to describe your own half-baked ideas and if you want to make fun of someone, please do so in an intelligent way.
Thank you.
8. September 2009 - 6:13 AM
Kedar and Kishkindhaa,
People like you are the reason the Hindu right movement is losing attraction for the youth of this country.Your pathetic obsession to tar any one who tries to bring a nuance to the discussion as christist or commie shows that you are influenced more by a persecution mindset than a Hindu dharmic one.Do some introspection please.
My association with Christianity is such that I know some good Christians, who do believe that they were Hindus at one time, and wouldn’t ever want to get rid of the Hinduized aspects of their Christianity.
As for YSR’s spiritual advisors being Christian and that resulting in a positive change of heart w.r.t. factionsim in Rayalaseema, I am stating it as one of the possible factors.
There are some important reasons why Hindu society is in general unable to properly resist the spread of evangelism.One reason is the lack of a group of roaming Hindu dharmic advisors to give moral support to the needy among the Hindus, both rich and poor. The Swamijis we have are not really accessible, and the Hindus have to go visit the Swamis, than the Swamis going around in the colonies. This is the case of middle class Hindus.The poor Hindus have no avenue to even learn or discuss their faith with a knowledgeable person, except watch shoddily made mythologicals on TV.
I would suggest educated people like you focus on contemplating solutions to the problems we are facing, than be content with sitting around and cursing every one who doesn’t fully agree with you.
Ekam Sat, Vipra Bahuda Vadanti.
8. September 2009 - 8:27 AM
>>>”Well I am not a product of YOUR new politically correct notion that all cultures are “equal”,… ”
We know. You consider those imperialist cults as superior and have become their intellectual slave.
>>> “.. although I believe in respecting all cultures.”
Don’t fool yourself. Intellectual slaves really do not have self-respect and therefore are not in a position to accord respect to others.
>>>”Why should I believe that cultures that did not produce writing were the same as those that did”
Reduce your enormous ignorance by going through this information-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Writing_systems
>>>”Some like to live in the stone age and others do not and produce something different”
different, such as violent extermination and subjugation of everybody else to grab all land and wealth to satisfy their insatiable greed for wealth and power. In the process they produce some morons among the subjugated people who worship them for having brought ‘modernity’ to those lands.
>>>”What is imperialist about this? ”
It takes intellect to understand what is imperialist about imperialism. Intellectual slaves naturally are at a disadvantage in this respect.
>>>”Rather you display your ignorance in lumping everything as the “same” and as “one”. A product of the new political correctness.”
On what do you base this false assumption of yours, “anagram of liar ass” ?
An indigenous thriving culture is far superior to an imperial, ruthless, violent, cheating, avaricious cult that subjugates, displaces and exterminates peoples and cultures.
That the thriving population and cultures of Americas have been decimated by the invading christian cult is a historical fact which your enslaved mind is unable to appreciate.
>>>“I do not see how I am trampling over “native americans” ”
Natural, in your enslaved state you are ignorant of most things.
With your statement “What culture? Culture of human sacrifice?” you trample over native americans mouthing the propaganda of imperial missionaries. Your ignorance is no excuse for this act of violence.
Fabricating stories about “human sacrifice” these imperial missionaries and their armies exterminated millions of people in Americas, not to mention Africa and Asia. Thus exterminating, they claim to have “civilized” them.
And some ignorant bigots buy that fabrication as truth and parrot the same.
>>>”People “become” civilized by absorbing civilized cultures”
Don’t be a fool.
People become civilised by developing themselves.
Mata Amritanandamayi does not have any degrees, she may not read or write in english or even Samskritam. She may not have read the Vedas or Upanishads. But she has developed herself. Not by absorbing the “civilisation” of the power hungry missionaries. But by developing herself. With self-effort. Just like the ancient rishis of India did.
Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was illiterate in english and probably even in bengali too.
But he was infinitely more civilised than the so-called literate you or your educated missionary masters such as macaulay and max mueller.
>>>”..just as countries like Britian were also “civilized” at some point by the Romans”
Conquering is conquering. not ‘civilising’.
>>>”We do not believe that an illiterate man is the same as a literate one ”
The two examples of “illiterate” persons given above is meant to show that literacy or even high education does not necessarily make a person superior to another.
And that material wealth or “technological” development does not make a so-called “culture” superior to another.
>>>”Incongnito is the english for someone whose identity is not visible. But what about in Latin? ”
from Latin word incognitus, unknown .
8. September 2009 - 9:08 AM
It is true that there are many good christians and good muslims.
And it is as it should be
But what we are talking here is the ideology sought to be imposed by the Church and the Islamic jihadi outfits backed by countries like saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
A few good christians or good muslims cannot stem the onslaught of these forces
They are helpless .
But significantly many dont even speak out against the actions of their co- religionists
Unlike a large number of Hindus who go out of the way condemning and attacking Hindu activists and organisations
Why, it is said that during the partition riots of our country, many neighbours of Hindus in the present Pakistan overnight became antagonistic to them and attacked the Hindu families and some even occupied their properties taking advantage of the hapless situation they were in.
Why were the Hindus of Kashmir valley driven out from their ancestral homes?
Why is it that wherever the Muslims become majority they deny rights to the Hindus?
Even today with such a large population of Hindus, after giving away Pakistan the Hindus are denied the right to take Ganesh chathurthi processions through some streets on the most ridiculous plea that there is a mosque in that street.
Imagine there is a mosque in every street.
Does it mean that the Hindus cannot take out any procession at all?
can it happen in any other country?
The kind of things that some christians do with the patronage of the church is really sickening
You only have to go through some vernacular magazines where the parents of girls pour out their agony about their daughters enticed by christian and Muslim boys in the name of love and getting them converted.
Many say that they contemplate suicide
Recently In Kerala the police have uncovered a huge conspiracy by which Hindu girls are enticed in a similar manner by Muslim youth and ultimately deserted and forced into terrorism. Now the police are probing the disappearance of 4000 Hindu girls.
Regarding the Hindu Acharyas, our custom is for the seekers to go to the Guru and not the other way.
Because our Dharma is based on duty and knowledge on the part of seekers and respect for Gurus.
The gurus do not expect anything from the disciples except that he should follow Dharma.
As for the teachings of Dharma we had the system of Pravachana,satsangs, Nama Sankirtan, temple worship,austerities and festivals from and through every one of which learn our Dharma.
Moreover the families themselves were repositories of Dharmic knowledge with the elders well- versed in them and teaching and passing it on to the next generation.
Great saints and seers appeared from time to time and by their teachings and actions kept the people firmly on the Dharmic path.
Our Dharma never said only a particular path is right.
But with the other religions it is not like that.
when our forefathers first confronted them and their adherents they imagined that they were also broadminded like us and welcomed them with open arms and helped them build churches and mosques.
But they were shocked into numbness by their cruelty and vandalism for which they were not prepared.
They are basically one- God religions which is totally anathema to us.
And they are evangelising religions having voracious appetite for numbers and territory.
Hence we lost huge population and territory
If this continues then not only our children will lose their freedom but also the world will be poorer because Hindu Dharma is a banyan tree under which all can take shelter
Hindu Dharma can usher in peace in this troubled world.
It is a mosaic of culture,customs,tradition arts,philosophy,etc etc and the world can get enriched by drawing deep from its wellsprings.
We are concerned only about such aspects.
can a few good christians and muslims give a guarantee that such activities by the church and the islamic umma will cease?
R.Sridharan
8. September 2009 - 11:30 AM
I think rise of Christianity has lot to do with rise of capitalism and consumerism. So both are supporting each other for past 300 years. Now Hinduism by the way it is will never support reckless consumerism, so all this movement of pumping money for promoting Christianity.
Now we need to look in to faults we had in dealing with such forces. I would advice you guys, check out how Ramdev ji is spreading the real essence of Hinduism through his work. And he has started Bharat Swabhiman Aandolan to bring back self pride among Indians
8. September 2009 - 2:07 PM
Searching through all of the vomit that our Kumara spew, the only worthwhile thing I found was this:
“ekam sat, vipraaha badudha vadanti”
This is a part of “asyaa vaameeya sukta” of the first manDala of Rigveda.
The full mantra says:
“They call him Indra, Mitra, Varu?a, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutm?n |
The Sat(truth, God) is One, sages say it in many ways- they call it Agni, Yama, M?tari?van||”
This mantra is about Hinduism not being a “polytheistic religion” (as defined by the mythologists).
This is NOT a mantra to show “all religions are same” and that kind of bogus bullshit.
Now our Kumara here picks up this line out of rigveda because he came across it somewhere in some new-age guru’s teacheings and dares to apply the mantra that resulted out of years of penance and meditation of the great rishi Deerghatamaa to a religion whose books were repeatedly, even officially edited and re-dited constantly over centuries for the consistency of the “story” of their prophet!
Glad to know he knows some good Christians (I happen to know some as well), but the truth still doesnt change.
This mantra is much about ‘One Truth’ as it is about ‘One God’.
No truth = No God.
8. September 2009 - 4:30 PM
Kedar,
Your knowledge of Rig Veda is admirable. Can you please respond to the main thrust of my argument – that your approach would not win new adherents from among Hindus, but serve to drive people away, and also serve no strategic end?
Read Vaidyanathan’s article linked below. The professor has articulated the problem with ultra right people:
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=790
8. September 2009 - 4:48 PM
Incognito
- Good links but we would not know about all this if the White man had done his job well. Even now, what is the use if the White man refuses to do something good with all the (still) existing good the Red men left behind? I hope your getting the basic point.
Hindus still survive inspite of Islam and Christianity ravaging their lands for a millennia; because of what they possessed as against what the Red men did not possess.
Most invaders and conquerors generally don’t acquire sudden taste for conquered peoples achievements. Why should they if all that it resulted in was defeat? – Here is where the Muslims and the Christians had an excellent sense of what would occur if they ever tried to do what the White man did to the Red men.
It’s not all about softy softy things the human mind creates at leisure. First survive; then create and while at it, learn to protect what is yours.
I don’t blame the Whiteman at all. What has been conquered is the conqueror’s. I have no sympathy for the Red men because they were careless and suffered. Now the Whiteman will preserve and probably use what the Red men created.
I also know that there are some Red men’s colonies that have been allowed to exist, some museums. The operative word is “allowed”. This means there is no separate “Will” of the Red men that guide them anymore.
No point in railing against races that are aggressive. Won’t help. Becoming aggressive in turn should be the goal.
******
Kumar – I see your point. I think the only reason your getting such heat is because the wary amongst us become warier when they see any perceived breach in the fortress.
These are battles we fight.
If I were in the role of a perceptive camp-follower while a war is being waged, I would probably say – “look, these are the enemy’s strengths..and we have corresponding weaknesses. Better we imbibe these strengths to become stronger than our enemies.”
I should remember to word my advise carefully so as not to sound as if i’m saying – “look, these are the strengths of the other camp..I think we should send our folks over so that we may try to learn from the other camp. That would really work for both of us.”
The latter will sure instigate my camp-leader to have me shot as a saboteur.
Kumar, we’ve all become sensitive these days.
Whatever happens, happens for the good.
As if we had any other choice..
8. September 2009 - 5:11 PM
Hi Sandeep,
Great analysis and a superb article.
But my personnel feeling is that a politician should see the needs of people irrespective of their religion,castes and etc…only then india would become a great country. Propagating christianity or other relegions are useless and waste of time. By utilizing their valuable time,the power and authorities that they have in their role they can acheive lot many things for indian people.
And most of the indian politicians become a great leader by
showing the smell of money. So it is quite obvious for a politician to play around with a poor, illiterate and needy people of india. As one of the comments states ‘ Politicians should not entertain the poor by giving money’.This is absolutely correct which would always not going to serve the purpose of a poor. Politicians should create opportunities for the poor to survive himself and to be a care taker of his family. Only then a politician is considers as a leader of masses etc…etc…
As long as a politician has racial discremination and wants to take their religion alone in a great growth india is going to be in lot of issues in every thing.
Jai ho.
Sadhana
8. September 2009 - 5:55 PM
Thanks, Palahalli, for the understanding.
FWIW, I posted the final instalment of my posts on YSR, and talked about Evangelism in AP, and my view on YSR’s role.Will be happy to have a civil, and constructive discussion.
http://kumarsbol.blogspot.com/2009/09/ysr-1949-2009-born-again-politician-4.html
8. September 2009 - 6:02 PM
Kumar:
I dont understand what you mean by “winning adherents”! I dont want people to adhere to me, or my words. I talk when something untrue or adharmic is being said or done.
To conclude:
1) I am dead against you writing long essays about YSR as a complicated concoction of transformations. Lets keep it simple. Any right minded Hindu would not like what YSR did. If you dont hate him for his actions, there is a problem with your mindset. So, YSR = Bad.
2) Your usage of Ekam sat mantra is totally unwarranted in this context.
3) You said “I know some good Christians …wouldn’t ever want to get rid of the Hinduized aspects of their Christianity.”
If you look at history, that is how christianisation starts– the celtic cross has a circle around it to account for their sun worship, December 25th was chosen as christmas because of some local deity’s festival (Russian Christmas is sometime early January), resurrection story is based on another middle-eastern God who died every winter and came back to life a month later, and so on.
If some converted christians keep Hinduised aspects, there is nothing more that can possibly worry me. Even intelligent people like you fall for it and think “wow! even now, they are like Hindus you know!”. They are actually bridging the gap between the way Hindus and Christians function in their external appearance, so that it would seem as if would not make any difference to convert. Knowing all that, the Ekam Sat mantra is plain suicide when used in this context.
4)I completely agree with your analysis on the need for roaming spiritual advisors who teach dharma among the masses. We definitely need a new wave of singing balladeers called ‘daasari’s and ‘jangama’s (depending on their affiliation) of old who used to spread tavta and jnaana teachings among the masses through simple keertanas.
8. September 2009 - 6:23 PM
Hindus still survive inspite of Islam and Christianity ravaging their lands for a millennia; because of what they possessed as against what the Red men did not possess.
And what would that be?
8. September 2009 - 6:26 PM
Bravo Incognito… arrogant, pompous comments deserve throughly rude ripostes and you have done it with intelligence.
8. September 2009 - 7:27 PM
See this: “Chicago’s Christian Community Pays Glowing Tributes to Dr. Y.S.R. Reddy”: “http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&broadcastid=144297″…….a good quote in this article: “….He pointed that the Indian American Christian community should rejoice because Dr. Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy was called for a higher calling and nobler purpose; therefore his departure from this world should be viewed in the context of this greater mission of our Christian faith and our Saviors will.”…….L…..O…..L. This meeting was presided over by one chap called Pallekonda, head of the chicago unit of that hate-mongering organization called FIOCONA.
8. September 2009 - 7:58 PM
Nanda Kishore – Some of the obvious things come to mind;
1. Deeply religious population in Hindusthan
2. Existing kingdoms/empires with matching armies
3. Geographical proximity that clouded any difference in capabilities – Hindusthan and Persia/Arabia are not as far away as the Americas and Europe
4. There was always awareness of different peoples across our boders. This advantage, the Red men did not have vis a vis the Whiteman.
8. September 2009 - 8:47 PM
Incognito,
It is amazing how ignorant you are. Incongito also means ignorant as a participle in Latin as I have amply displayed to you who knows no Latin. You are beyond learning–so its futile to argue with types like you.
And no I do not have to believe that hunting and gathering tribal cultures is the same as a culture that produces an Aristotle. That does not mean I do not respect tribal peoples–given a chance to learn from civilization, tribals also change and absorb civilization, as has been amply displayed in world history–Even Rajputs were just tribals a thousand years ago. Why should I believe in egalitarianism and that everything is the same as anything else? It has never been so in human history although Marxists and liberals want to make it so.
You are just a commie in a changed form–venting out anger for the past when the world has changed–and I find you anger and outrage hilarious. Why use “white men” as a category? Just as Hindus vary amongst themselves and do not agree amongst themselves, so this category also encompasses different kinds of thinking, and not all are “imperialist missionaries”. I am reminded of Hugo Chavez talk when I listen to you.
Not all European settlers wanted to exterminate American Indians–but some settlers went ahead and did so. Moreover, why should the current generations of Europeans have to be guilty for what their ancestors did?
Sounds like you have some kind of resentment and jealsousy which also characterizes communists–
8. September 2009 - 9:17 PM
Moreover despite the past, America has corrected its mistakes–nowhere in the world does an individual have the opportunity to make something of his life than in America, regardless of his ethnic background–what happened to the American Indians was terrible, everyone knows that–but you keep on harping on as if all “whites” are “imperialist missionaires” still–but you get angry when Hindus are lumped together under similar epithets–Double standards if anything. I have noticed that its usually the Mid East and Latin American dictatorships who also use this kind of language, like Hugo Chavez–an excuse for not improving the lot of their citizens. No one can change the past, why not focus on building a better present?
You seem like a touchy insecure person–get out of your colonial complexes–the modern world is about whoever seizes the opportunity to succeed in the modern world–and whatever society succeeds in building a better life for its citizens is the one that is respected.
8. September 2009 - 9:31 PM
Dear Kumar,
>>Your pathetic obsession to tar any one who tries to bring a nuance to the discussion as christist or commie shows that you are influenced more by a persecution mindset than a Hindu dharmic one.Do some introspection please.
Speaking from a purely “dahrmic Hindu” viewpoint, YSR is not worth a “nuanced” analysis. He is just another run-of-the-mill populist politician with dubious antecedents like most of them out there; no worse perhaps than the rest, but no better either. Kindly spare this pseudo-intellectual claptrap about a man who deserves “nuanced analyses” as much as the cold sambaar in the local idli-dosa joint in Pulivendula does.
But if you must insist: How will he be remembered 50 years later? Here’s my wager: he’ll have a statue on Tank Bund (erected _now_), and the strollers who’d pay any attention at all will think he’s a cousin of Mr Ranga Reddy because there’s a district named after the latter nearby. And the YSR District may _not_ exist because it will have been split up to provide naming opportunities for the politicians of 2060′s decade.
I’ll grant you I’ll go wrong under one circumstance: the YSR dynasty would have been perpetuated and Mr Robert Reddy, the great-great-grandson, is ruling the state.
8. September 2009 - 10:52 PM
That the thriving population and cultures of Americas have been decimated by the invading christian cult is a historical fact which your enslaved mind is unable to appreciate.
These people were exterminated by buccaneers and pirates–who went there just to make gold initially and killed them with their guns. A great majority died because they were not immune to diseases brought in by the Europeans. There were many enlightened men who opposed the treatment of the native population by the Spainards. Read Darwin for example on this–. Read a bit of history incognito and you will see that not all whites are “imperialist missionaries”. Just as India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants initially who easily tricked the natives –East India company–(I believe the educated upper classes stayed home initially, and then even later it was said that the worthless were mostly sent to the colonies) and who eventually got powerful enough to take over and of course the British government seeing that India was a lucrative colony was only more than happy to assist later….I don’t see how Christianity has got anything to do with it–that came in later–after the guns did the work then came the proselytizing…Even in America some settlers were on good terms with the American Indians, but then the Scots Irish who were violent and brought in especially to fight in the frontiers were ruthless and used their guns to exterminate….
8. September 2009 - 11:18 PM
Incognito,
Speaking of exploitation, have you ever talked to an African on how they view Indians in their country? Talk to a Kenyan and you’ll find out. Just because some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly, are we to conclude that all Hindus are “blood suckers”? But no, this does not prevent you from painting other peoples with gross generalizations. How are you any different then from the screeching commies full of generalizations about how the bourgeois, the rich and intellectuals “exploit”, was it not this kind of specious generalizations that lead to justifications of mass murders in communist regimes? I guess an “imperialist apologist” like me, or whatever you call me is unable to see the “logic” of you twisted reasoning.
9. September 2009 - 2:32 AM
From:
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=795
The AP government is also auctioning cows and calves donated by devotees to Bhagwan Narasimhar Temple at Simhachalam to owners of abattoirs.
(http://www.hindujagruti.org/activities/campaigns/religious/save-temples/templesact/misuse.php)
The state government identified 7000 acres of temple lands for sale to raise revenues of Rs. 20, 000 crores. In many places, those lands have been allegedly encroached upon by Churches and Missionaries with the connivance of government officials. Some have been given for construction of Churches and Mosques.
Thousands of Churches have been planted by missionaries throughout the state totally disproportionate to the Christian population – one Church for every seven Christians! The number of Churches stands at 148,000; the temples are 190,000 (one for every 350 Hindus) and Mosques figure at 176,000 (one for every 40 Muslims)
(Ref: http://www.drthchowdary.net/index.php and
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PAGEID=7317&SKIN=C )
When he arranged for a mammoth congregation, as huge as US evangelist Benny Hinn’s, the government’s machineries were allegedly used to make the show a big hit. Hundreds of banners were erected throughout the twin cities and other major cities and towns to welcome Brother Anil Kumar. YSR participated with his wife and daughter. The evangelical meet came in for severe criticism and drew flak from the opposition. But when confronted by the media on the use of official machinery to promote his son-in-law, YSR had quipped, “What is wrong in that?” It is believed Brother Anil Kumar has been placed as rival to the well-known evangelist KA Paul, also from AP.
(http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/15-andhra-cm-son-in-laws-religious-meet-draws-flak.htm)
10. September 2009 - 1:13 AM
how slayers….is a good piece.deserves careful attention by all concerned hindus.
10. September 2009 - 7:51 PM
Anagram of ‘Liar Ass’
>>>And no I do not have to believe that hunting and gathering tribal cultures is the same as a culture that produces an Aristotle.
hunting and gathering tribal cultures have as much right to existence as any other so-called ‘culture’.
But why drag Aristotle into this ? He did not kill any native American.
In fact Aristotle’s Greece was destroyed by the same greedy romans who later propagated the cult called christianity for furthering their imperialist ambitions.
>>> That does not mean I do not respect tribal peoples
You may fool yourself on that subject, not others.
>>>given a chance to learn from civilization, tribals also change and absorb civilization, as has been amply displayed in world history
You talk as if being a tribal is something wrong, like a disease that has to be cured by absorbing ‘civilisation’.
This is the excuse given by imperial cults masquerading as ‘civilisation’ to justify destruction of indigenous cultures and traditions.
That you, an intellectual slave of such imperial propaganda, is parrotting the same is no surprise.
>>>Even Rajputs were just tribals a thousand years ago.
A thousand years ago. That was the time that Ghazni fellow started raiding northwestern india. Perhaps those ‘tribal Rajputs’ of the time, the descendants of Bappa Rawal and the Chauhans and Pratiharas ‘absorbed civilisation’ from Ghazni (?)
You surely do live up to your anagram of ‘liar ass’. consistently.
>>>Why use “white men” as a category?
Apart from you, the only other commenter to use the term “White man”, for your information, is Palahalli.
>>>Not all European settlers wanted to exterminate American Indians
And not all virus is harmful to human body.
The point is about the imperialistic attitude of the cult called christianity (or islam) that considers any non-believer as heathen and a devil’s follower and worthy of decimation or conversion only.
It was this attitude that caused the destruction of indigenous cultures of Americas and elsewhere.
It was this intolerant dogma that was used to justify the killings of millions.
>>>Moreover, why should the current generations of Europeans have to be guilty for what their ancestors did?
Where did you drag in “the current generations of Europeans” and “have to be guilty for what their ancestors did” from ‘Liar Ass’ ?
>>>nowhere in the world does an individual have the opportunity to make something of his life than in America
Like how a deracinated indian made ‘something’ of her life by turning into an anagram of ‘liar ass’.
What do you really consider life to be ?
That it has to be made something of ?
Indians long back held a different view. They considered life to be a spiritual experience. And the purpose of their lives were directed towards experiencing their spirituality.
Deracinated indians now hold different views.
>>>but you keep on harping on as if all “whites” are “imperialist missionaires”
Can you substantiate that wild allegation ?
>>>No one can change the past, why not focus on building a better present?
You can’t build a better present or a possible better future without learning lessons of the past.
Present and Future have their roots in past.
Indian concept of Karma explains this. If you were not so deracinated you would understand this concept.
You are born with indian roots because of some good Karma and good fortune. Better it would be if you recognise this and utilise this opportunity for spiritual progress instead of getting enamoured by propaganda of imperial cultists.
>>>These people were exterminated by buccaneers and pirates
It was the greedy regents of europe using church dogma that killed millions of natives of America and destroyed their cultures.
Only an idiotic enslaved mind will attempt to sell the fabrication that Christopher Colombus, Vasco da Gama, Hernan Cortes, Fransesco Pizarro, Francis Xavier, Robert Clive and others were mere buccaneers and pirates not acting under the directions of their imperial kings
>>>A great majority died because they were not immune to diseases brought in by the Europeans.
And what were the europeans doing there ? selling ice-cream ?
Is it difficult to understand that the diseases were spread with deliberate intent ?
With the deliberate intent of grabbing the land and resources of those people ?
That the destruction of cultures that thrived for a millennium and the death of millions of people of those cultures did not happen by accident ?
>>>There were many enlightened men who opposed the treatment of the native population by the Spainards
Did these ‘many enlightened men’ include the king and the poope of that time ?
>>>Just as India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants
You surely do try to live up to your anagram of ‘liar ass‘ handle.
Not everyone will try to palm off Lord Robert Clive and Right Honourable Warren Hastings, Governer General of Bengal, as ‘low class not very educated merchants’
It is this state of enfeeblement of intellect as a result of having allowed it to be enslaved by greedy propagandists that results in the sainting of slayers that Sandeep has talked about.
>>>Even in America some settlers were on good terms with the American Indians
As good terms as one who has settled on anothers’ land could be towards the dispossed original owner.
>>>have you ever talked to an African on how they view Indians in their country?
Only a dumb intellectual slave like you will talk to one African and conclude that all Africans hold same view.
By that yardstick any African who talks to you will form the wrong impression that all Indians are deracinated intellectual slaves of western propaganda.
Some of the phrases that you used in your sentances such as ‘ India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants initially who easily tricked the natives , ‘ I believe the educated upper classes stayed home initially, and then even later it was said that the worthless were mostly sent to the colonies ‘ , ‘ some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly ‘, reveals your class prejudices and points to the nineteenth century thinking that shapes your world view. Incidentally this prejudicial world view that justified imperialism, slavery, monarchy and even racism was gradually abandoned by ‘enlightened’ people in twentieth century even including most europeans who originally developed those prejudices.
That you still hold on to such outmoded prejudices shows the extent to which your intellect has been enslaved.
Try to free yourself of such dogma.
>>>Just because some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly, are we to conclude that all Hindus are “blood suckers”?
In the same vein, just because somebody accuses another of human sacrifice, is it sufficient to condemn an entire people as culture-less?
Just because somebody holds on to the way of life of his ancestors, is it necessary to condemn him as tribal and uncivilised ?
Just because a person is illiterate, is it justified to consider him a lesser human being ?
No.
10. September 2009 - 7:51 PM
As usual bang on target, hits the bulls eye!
I wish they’d showed the half the sort of spontaneous reaction in putting in place resources when Mumbai was attacked by those marauders. For an instance, I thought it was the scheme of the things for a govt to react to such an incident with such spontaneity but in hindsight I guess the reasons are pretty obvious.
10. September 2009 - 8:51 PM
N Shah,
The agencies involved in responding to 26/11 failed totally.Not because they cared less for the victims.Simply because of lack of preparedness, and the inefficiency of Home ministry.
The AP Govt largely acted on its own w.r.t. YSR’s chopper disappearance, in particular state chief secretary Ramakant Reddy did a great job.The Union Ministers approved all the requests from the State Govt quickly, including the involvement of ISRO satellites and US DoD data.
We can only hope this kind of responsiveness becomes the norm or benchmark if terrorists strike civilian targets again.It is not very useful cribbing about a job well done because under different set of circumstances several months back, the systems and processes were found wanting.
There is a case for reopening the debate on the preparedness of our civilian and paramilitary security forces in responding to urban terrorism.That has fallen off the radar some how, thanks to an opposition in disarray.
10. September 2009 - 10:08 PM
Anagram of ‘liar ass’
>>>And no I do not have to believe that hunting and gathering tribal cultures is the same as a culture that produces an Aristotle.
hunting and gathering tribal cultures have as much right to existence as any other so-called ‘culture’.
But why drag Aristotle into this ? He did not kill any native American.
In fact Aristotle’s Greece was destroyed by the same greedy romans who later propagated the cult called christianity for furthering their imperialist ambitions.
>>> That does not mean I do not respect tribal peoples
You may fool yourself on that subject, not others.
>>>given a chance to learn from civilization, tribals also change and absorb civilization, as has been amply displayed in world history
You talk as if being a tribal is something wrong, like a disease that has to be cured by absorbing ‘civilisation’.
This is the excuse given by imperial cults masquerading as ‘civilisation’ to justify destruction of indigenous cultures and traditions.
That you, an intellectual slave of such imperial propaganda, is parrotting the same is no surprise.
>>>Even Rajputs were just tribals a thousand years ago.
A thousand years ago. That was the time that Ghazni fellow started raiding northwestern india. Perhaps those ‘tribal Rajputs’ of the time, the descendants of Bappa Rawal and the Chauhans and Pratiharas ‘absorbed civilisation’ from Ghazni (?)
You surely do live up to your anagram of ‘liar ass’. consistently.
>>>Why use “white men” as a category?
Apart from you, the only other commenter to use the term “White man”, for your information, is Palahalli.
>>>Not all European settlers wanted to exterminate American Indians
And not all virus is harmful to human body.
The point is about the imperialistic attitude of the cult called christianity (or islam) that considers any non-believer as heathen and a devil’s follower and worthy of decimation or conversion only.
It was this attitude that caused the destruction of indigenous cultures of Americas and elsewhere.
It was this intolerant dogma that was used to justify the killings of millions.
>>>Moreover, why should the current generations of Europeans have to be guilty for what their ancestors did?
Where did you drag in “the current generations of Europeans” and “have to be guilty for what their ancestors did” from ?
>>>nowhere in the world does an individual have the opportunity to make something of his life than in America
Like how a deracinated indian made ‘something’ of her life by turning into an anagram of ‘liar ass’.
What do you really consider life to be ?
That it has to be made something of ?
Indians long back held a different view. They considered life to be a spiritual experience. And the purpose of their lives were directed towards experiencing their spirituality.
Deracinated indians now hold different views.
>>>but you keep on harping on as if all “whites” are “imperialist missionaires”
Can you substantiate that wild allegation ?
>>>No one can change the past, why not focus on building a better present?
You can’t build a better present or a possible better future without learning lessons of the past.
Present and Future have their roots in past.
Indian concept of Karma explains this. If you were not so deracinated you would understand this concept.
You are born with indian roots because of some good Karma and good fortune. Better it would be if you recognise this and utilise this opportunity for spiritual progress instead of getting enamoured by propaganda of imperial cultists.
10. September 2009 - 10:09 PM
contd from above…
>>>These people were exterminated by buccaneers and pirates
It was the greedy regents of europe using church dogma that killed millions of natives of America and destroyed their cultures.
Only an idiotic enslaved mind will attempt to sell the fabrication that Christopher Colombus, Vasco da Gama, Hernan Cortes, Fransesco Pizarro, Francis Xavier, Robert Clive and others were mere buccaneers and pirates not acting under the directions of their imperial kings
>>>A great majority died because they were not immune to diseases brought in by the Europeans.
And what were the europeans doing there ? selling ice-cream ?
Is it difficult to understand that the diseases were spread with deliberate intent ?
With the deliberate intent of grabbing the land and resources of those people ?
That the destruction of cultures that thrived for a millennium and the death of millions of people of those cultures did not happen by accident ?
>>>There were many enlightened men who opposed the treatment of the native population by the Spainards
Did these ‘many enlightened men’ include the king and the pope of that time ?
>>>Just as India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants
You surely do try to live up to your anagram of ‘liar ass‘ handle.
Not everyone will try to palm off Lord Robert Clive and Right Honourable Warren Hastings, Governer General of Bengal, as ‘low class not very educated merchants’
It is this state of enfeeblement of intellect as a result of having allowed it to be enslaved by greedy propagandists that results in the sainting of slayers that Sandeep talked about.
>>>Even in America some settlers were on good terms with the American Indians
As good terms as one who has settled on anothers’ land could be towards the dispossed original owner.
>>>have you ever talked to an African on how they view Indians in their country?
Only a dumb intellectual slave like you will talk to one African and conclude that all Africans hold same view.
By that yardstick any African who talks to you will form the wrong impression that all Indians are deracinated intellectual slaves of western propaganda.
Some of the phrases regarding lower and upper class that you used in your sentances such as ‘ India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants initially who easily tricked the natives , ‘ I believe the educated upper classes stayed home initially, and then even later it was said that the worthless were mostly sent to the colonies ‘ , ‘ some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly ‘, reveals your class prejudices and points to the nineteenth century thinking that shapes your world view. Incidentally this prejudicial world view that justified imperialism, slavery, monarchy and even racism was gradually abandoned by ‘enlightened’ people in twentieth century even including most europeans who originally developed those prejudices.
That you still hold on to such outmoded prejudices shows the extent to which your intellect has been enslaved.
Try to free yourself of such dogma.
>>>Just because some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly, are we to conclude that all Hindus are “blood suckers”?
In the same vein, just because somebody accuses another of human sacrifice, is it sufficient to condemn an entire people as culture-less?
Just because somebody holds on to the way of life of his ancestors, is it necessary to condemn him as tribal and uncivilised ?
Just because a person is illiterate, is it justified to consider him a lesser human being ?
No.
10. September 2009 - 10:11 PM
contd…
>>>These people were exterminated by buccaneers and pirates
It was the greedy regents of europe using church dogma that killed millions of natives of America and destroyed their cultures.
Only an idiotic enslaved mind will attempt to sell the fabrication that Christopher Colombus, Vasco da Gama, Hernan Cortes, Fransesco Pizarro, Francis Xavier, Robert Clive and others were mere buccaneers and pirates not acting under the directions of their imperial kings
>>>A great majority died because they were not immune to diseases brought in by the Europeans.
And what were the europeans doing there ? selling ice-cream ?
Is it difficult to understand that the diseases were spread with deliberate intent ?
With the deliberate intent of grabbing the land and resources of those people ?
That the destruction of cultures that thrived for a millennium and the death of millions of people of those cultures did not happen by accident ?
>>>There were many enlightened men who opposed the treatment of the native population by the Spainards
Did these ‘many enlightened men’ include the king and the pope of that time ?
>>>Just as India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants
You surely do try to live up to your anagram of ‘liar ass‘ handle.
Not everyone will try to palm off Lord Robert Clive and Right Honourable Warren Hastings, Governer General of Bengal, as ‘low class not very educated merchants’
It is this state of enfeeblement of intellect as a result of having allowed it to be enslaved by greedy propagandists that results in the sainting of slayers that Sandeep talked about.
>>>Even in America some settlers were on good terms with the American Indians
As good terms as one who has settled on anothers’ land could be towards the dispossed original owner.
>>>have you ever talked to an African on how they view Indians in their country?
Only a dumb intellectual slave like you will talk to one African and conclude that all Africans hold same view.
By that yardstick any African who talks to you will form the wrong impression that all Indians are deracinated intellectual slaves of western propaganda.
Some of the phrases regarding lower and upper class that you used in your sentances such as ‘ India was subjugated by a group of low class not very educated merchants initially who easily tricked the natives , ‘ I believe the educated upper classes stayed home initially, and then even later it was said that the worthless were mostly sent to the colonies ‘ , ‘ some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly ‘, reveals your class prejudices and points to the nineteenth century thinking that shapes your world view. Incidentally this prejudicial world view that justified imperialism, slavery, monarchy and even racism was gradually abandoned by ‘enlightened’ people in twentieth century even including most europeans who originally developed those prejudices.
That you still hold on to such outmoded prejudices shows the extent to which your intellect has been enslaved.
Try to free yourself of such dogma.
>>>Just because some low class businessmen might treat the natives in Africa badly, are we to conclude that all Hindus are “blood suckers”?
In the same vein, just because somebody accuses another of human sacrifice, is it sufficient to condemn an entire people as culture-less?
Just because somebody holds on to the way of life of his ancestors, is it necessary to condemn him as tribal and uncivilised ?
Just because a person is illiterate, is it justified to consider him a lesser human being ?
No.
10. September 2009 - 10:13 PM
Sandeep,
sorry for multiple posts.
please delete the duplicate posts including this one.
Thanks
10. September 2009 - 11:55 PM
Incognito
Congratulations on taking your time out and demolishing that ‘unending non-sensical comment flood’ larissa.
That larissa = Darwin, White man/black man, my blue eyed-white skinned husband, native peoples/pirates, country peoples, civilised/uncivilised peoples, mountain/hill peoples, other india/real india, believers/unbelievers; without seeing dichotomy, one whose survival is difficult.
But again, we are throwing big stones on dung. Expect it to splatter.
11. September 2009 - 3:51 AM
Kumar,
You do not understand the process of ‘conversion’ and how it differentially impacts a believer/secular versus a heathen (you and me). Bush was an alcoholic and dissolute fratboy, psychologically abused by his father, but with enormous potential; subsequently, he discovered Jesus, and became a good *religious* man; and then he *further* proceeded to enact a nexus between state and evangelical groups which sought direct evangelization of Asia, enacted a neutering nuke deal meant to bring India under a strict inspections regime and to cap, eliminate, and rollback India’s nuclear deterrence. YSR is very similar to Bush; in fact, he liasioned with many of the same evangelist elements coming out of the US, and opened up the Indian “field” to their “harvest” of souls. In this, he was also fulfilling the Christian Congress’ agenda. This is the significance of YSR as he relates to the heathen society that is India; his dhoti style, his hearty accent are mere trivialites and not nuances as you deem. Please try to think in civilizational security terms rather than the petty terms of personality. Always India is first.
Evangelization is an essential component of monotheist imperialism as proved by 2000 years of monotheist history in which the natives are systematically deculturated and then dispossessed by the colonizer. Just look at converted populations in Africa, Phillipines, Boxer China, Native Americas, pre-mutiny India, post-nehru northeast and south, South Korea, Diem’s christianizing regime in Vietnam – the examples are legion.
Religions and their secularized variants (ie secular ideologies) are comprehensive *beliefs systems*; therefore, when a Christian converts after a rather formulaic “breakdown”, “crisis”, “revelation”, he adopts wholesale the tenets of the belief system. The tenets of Christianity are categorically anti-heathen, anti-idolatry, anti-native, and so on. It is very different than, as incognito pointed out, self-improvement (Abhyasa) that is common in India.
Lastly look up Swami Devananda on christian inculturation tactics. These tactics are used to lower the guard of the soul being harvested.
11. September 2009 - 10:30 AM
wow…kudos to you for such a wonderful piece of art ! I would rate your article as one of the best on YSR. I’ve been reading thousands of articles and listening to eulogizing views on YSR from my friends and relatives which has been driving me nuts. Common man and villagers can be excused for their ignorance on their opinions on him but educated citizens forming baseless opinions has always been so baffling and worrying to me. His recent schemes for poor man can best be described as “Why teach people how to catch a fish when you can just throw one at them”. He has made people so dependent on him with his useless schemes that no wonder we heard of hundreds of suicides. They are not going to provide any long-term solutions to the problems being faced by people in AP and God knows when people are going to realize it. Well i can go on and on but i’ve realized over time that its of no use unless people come to their senses and realize on their own
Thank you once again Sandeep for shedding light on few remaining facts that i needed to know on the so called ‘Messiah’
11. September 2009 - 10:54 AM
Wow Incognito, its simply amazing to see how you rip apart the rhetoric which tries to equate greatest tradition and dharma to heinous semetic political cults. Keep it up, we need such clarity to take on semetic , non pluralist fanatics and deracinated cowardly apes.
11. September 2009 - 11:27 AM
Kishkindhaa,
While I agree with you on the overall thesis about Christian evangelism, I feel Indian politicians like YSR don’t really fit into the same category as Bush.YSR would have encouraged Scientology if it meant more votes.His personal faith was political power.His dhoti and his idiomatic Telugu are cultural choices to portray himself as a son of the soil (which he was to a large extent).
Please read my post on YSR and evangelism in AP.
http://kumarsbol.blogspot.com/2009/09/ysr-1949-2009-born-again-politician-4.html
What I did not mention in my blog is my view that coastal AP would face a Khandhamal situation in a few years if not earlier.The Hindu intelligentsia is sitting around cursing the evangelists, and not working towards a solution for the problems in AP and TN.Kerala is a gone case, and coastal Karnataka is fast becoming like Kerala.
11. September 2009 - 11:49 AM
@kumar
Why is kerala a gone case ?. Its a genuine question. Whats hindu % of kerala ?. I thought new converts of TN,AP,KT states are more fanatics than those in kerala. Why do u say kerala is a gone case?..is it beco of muslims %?
11. September 2009 - 1:09 PM
Kumar:
Sure, YSR wears dhoti, and sure he talks in ‘idiomatic telugu’. These are again, as I mentioned signs that one doesnt have to wear suit and eat with fork and spoon and talk in english to be a Christian.
There is a sub-conscious appeal to the telugu people in the way YSR dresses himself and openly allows christian faith to prosper: “You can be like me– a telugu son of the soil, and still be a Christian”.
What I really wish is pamphlets distributed outside churches on how and why YSR died (refer my first comment in this article). There is a short time for us to use this incident before he is annointed as a saviour and a saint.
11. September 2009 - 2:51 PM
While no one will even know of Mr.Kumar’s painstakingly detailed neutral and nuanced transformational analysis, They will rememeber YSR as a bible-reading, church-attending protestant reddy-chritian who “went to heaven”:
http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/sep/07/dr-ysr-was-a-very-devoted-christian.htm
“Dr YSR, as he was affectionately known, was a member of the Protestant Church of South India. He was a committed Christian. His father Raja Reddy was also a Christian. They worshipped at the CSI church in their hometown, Pulivendula.
Dr YSR was a very devoted Christian, always attending church whenever they were in their hometown.
Incidentally, Dr Reddy and I studied at the Veerasaiva College in Bellary (eastern Karnataka bordering Andhra Pradesh). We were contemporaries in college.
I had the privilege of attending their (YSR’s family’s) last Christmas function. There were many family members there and also preachers. It is a very big family of more than 500 close relatives.
Dr YSR read the Bible and prayed every day with Christian discipline. His mother was a very devout lady. She prayed for his success in the first election. Dr YSR always acknowledged his mother’s prayers for his success.”
11. September 2009 - 4:41 PM
Kedar,
Agreed Rediff is more popular than my blog
But trust me on the pulse of the common man in AP.YSR is not seen as a Christian so much as a Congress mass leader with a violent past.
Rest assured Hinduism in AP is not in danger because of people reading that YSR was a devout Christian, and since they like his pro-poor policies and have sympathy due to his tragic demise, they would want to convert. Aisa nahin hone wala hai..people see him as a politician with a good heart.Religion doesn’t enter the picture at that level.
But I don’t mind if Hindutva activists see it that way and start a movement to preserve/protect the temples in AP, for starters.Good speed for such initiatives, if any.
11. September 2009 - 4:48 PM
Prachetas,
Having seen the minorities in all southern states, I think they are at their most aggressively anti-Hindu and economically dominant in Kerala (where they are not really minorities). In TN, the dravidian politics have weakened Hindu dharma to a large extent, and it needs a charismatic mass leader like Rajnikant (just giving an example) on the Hindu side. The focus of a dharmic revival should be on these two states.
Your question actually needs a long comment and detailed analysis.I assume there are people more qualified than I to speak about Kerala and TN.If not, I will revert to this topic at a later time.Have to rush now. Thanks.
11. September 2009 - 9:59 PM
Indians long back held a different view. They considered life to be a spiritual experience. And the purpose of their lives were directed towards experiencing their spirituality.
Deracinated indians now hold different views.
Oh yeah. and ignorant indians like you think themselves soooo spiritual and others not? Tell me what is your occupation and what have you done that makes you so spiritual in comparison with others? How are you different from those Christians in that you think those who do not agree with you are not “spiritual”? As for calling people “low class” –this does describe most of the East Indian Company people who were just out to make a buck–Warren Hastings came from a very humble background and one can just imagine such a unscrupulous person getting hold of the wealth of Bengal suddenly–he was “low class’ because he was unscrupulous and enlightened people like Edmund Burke put him on trial in England for corruption. And any Indian who exploits Africans is also “low class”–Don’t know why its wrong to use this phrase…anyone who behaves in a nasty fasion is “low class”–does not have to do with if they are rich, or wealthy or educated or not.
Moreover, all cultures were tribal at one point. When one reads about the crudades, just read the descriptions of the Northmen by people in the Middle East–how they did not shower and such and how unvicilized they were in the eyes of the Syrians and Lebanese, the Northmen became civilized in three generations in the Middle East. I do not believe that anyone is “inferior” but reather people are in different stages of development–some like the aborigines in Australia lived in the Stone Age, there are also a lot of tribals in India, who are content to live in the forest as tribals and do not want to be disturbed. Now cultures interact and people adopt different forms of life and stop being tribals–in the case of American Indians, their way of life was wiped out. In the case of Tibetans, cultural assimilation and change was gradual and did not destroy their way of life–this is a result of Buddhist culture which spread peacefully everywhere. However, it is insane to argue that a hunting gathering culture is the same as a highly literate one–and by saying “not the same” I am saying in different stages, and not accusing one of being inferior. The “tribal” when presented with the same opportunity for culture develops–this has been the case everywhere in human history–the Greeks and Romans gave civilization to other Europeans at one point who also were not civilized in the way Greeks and Romans were–The Romans thought they were bringing civilization into Britian. Sometimes, culture does not spread peacefully through gradual cultural syncretism but through force–this happened in the Americas–Regardless there is not reason not to accept qualitative differences amongst peoples and cultures–just as an “educated” man is “different” from an “uneducated” one–one is not saying that the man without “education” is inferior as a human, but that he has not had the set of opportunities to be educated, and given the right set of opportunities he will be educated. And no Incognito, I do not think you are “spiritual”–a “spiritual” person is at peace with his surroundings and is not full of venom and jealously like you, nor do they think they are know it alls.
11. September 2009 - 10:42 PM
And Incognito your kind of arguments are often used to argue that “anything” is as good as anything else, and to replace the classics in Universities with new age garbage in universities. You gave me the example of some “guru” who is not educated—now if “knowldege” were so simple, why do we even bother to be educated and disciple yourselves through education? In terms of moral qualities, the uneducated person can often display superior qualities, but you can hardly argue that such a person is the “same” as one who has developed himself in a literate way–and “same” it is not a question of “inferior/superior” (that you are always obsessed with in saying I call people “inferior”–a result of your own complexes) but a question of qualitative differences–you certainly cannot
destroy qualitative differences in the name of “egalitarianism”…And your “guru”might not be a “guru” to others, but a charlatan.
11. September 2009 - 10:49 PM
And Incognito your kind of arguments are often used to argue that “anything” is as good as anything else, and to replace the classics in Universities with new age garbage. You gave me the example of some “guru” who is not educated—now if “knowldege” were so simple, why do we even bother to be educated and disciple ourselves through education? In terms of moral qualities, the uneducated person can often display superior qualities(no one denies that and to be “educated” does not mean one is a perfect human morally–and even this depends on the definition of “moral”), but you can hardly argue that such a person is the “same” as one who has developed himself in a literate way–and “same” is not a question of “inferior/superior” ( you are always obsessed with in saying I call people “inferior”– this is a result of your own complexes and does not respresent what I think) but a question of qualitative differences–you certainly cannot destroy qualitative differences in the name of “egalitarianism”…And your “guru” might not be a “guru” at all to others, but simply a charlatan.
15. September 2009 - 9:34 AM
The Conversion To Intolerance: How the Missionaries are… by Raju Peddada
22. September 2009 - 9:02 AM
I will give just one instance of the ways in which the conversion game is being carried on by the Christian church.
In a recent issue of ‘Kumudam Jodidam’ a Tamil astrological and spiritual weekly, a lady from Kanyakumari has written to say that her marriage is delayed by the activities of the christians.
She says that even astrologers have been converted by the church.
Whenever she approaches an astrologer he tries to brainwash her into getting converted to christianity and tells her that he will arrange her marriage immediately.
She has also described the vile propaganda of the evangelists rubbishing Hindu Gods and Goddesses amongst the unlettered people and sowing seeds of doubts and hate in their minds to make them ripe for conversion.
Some time back some one had written about one of the most ingenious games of the church of converting ‘Sthapathis’ or experts in Temple building and ‘Aagama Sastra’ with a view to put a spoke in temple construction!
If this is not diabolical what else is?
R.Sridharan
28. September 2009 - 7:06 AM
“Warren Hastings came from a very humble background and one can just imagine such a unscrupulous person … ”
humble background = unscrupulous person.
This ‘ass’ seems to be full of sh#t
29. September 2009 - 8:39 PM
very very eye opening article to the indian masses,,
Now he is making money the illegal way , from Bellary,karnataka state through his community partner gali janardhan reddy in iron ore business. His son JAGAN MOHAN REDDY is instructing gali janardhan reddy the same ways as his grand father ys raja reddy had adopted in accquiring byrates mines illegaly.
some of his victims are,
1.BIOP MINES–MR.MODI,BELLARY
2.BALDOTA MINE (MSPL) @ HOSPET
3. TUMUTI MINE,BELLARY
4. SREE KUMARSWAMY MINES,SANDUR
5.HM MINES, BELLARY
THE LIST GOES ON
AS GALI JANARDHAN REDDY HAS FUNDED FOR AROUND 20-30MLA”s
the karnataka cm is helpless in taking any action against him, as he is more concerned with his cm post.
29. September 2009 - 8:51 PM
there is more my friend
nr mine ,bellary,
ht mine, bellary
hotur traders ,bellary
vs lad and sons,sandur
veerabadrappa and sons,sandur,
goga mine sandur,
some mine owners have yeilded to him as they have personal finincal commitments to pay to banks,investments,
tey have to pay him around 200-300 rs per ton
he has robbing huge quantities of ore from neighbouring mines and trucks without permits are lined up near hagri bridge, border to
29. September 2009 - 8:58 PM
there is more my friend
nr mine ,bellary,
ht mine, bellary
hotur traders ,bellary
vs lad and sons,sandur
veerabadrappa and sons,sandur,
goga mine sandur,
some mine owners have yeilded to him as they have personal finincal commitments to pay to banks,investments,
tey have to pay him around 200-300 rs per ton
he has robbing huge quantities of ore from neighbouring mines and trucks without permits are lined up near hagri bridge, border to AP to krishnapatnam port, his illegal activities r not taken into action by either the karnataka mines and geology officials, dc,rto,police or the AP authorities {AP AUTHORITIES FEAR JAGAN MOHAN REDDY WARTH}
EVERYONE IN BELLARY ARE FED UP WITH THESE GUYS ESPECIALLY THERE WAS A GREAT RELIEF WHEN THE NEWS OF YSR DEATH WAS HEARD, NOW PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR GODS ACTION ON THE THES REMAINING CULPRITS,
ACTUALLY GALI JANARDHAN REDDY HAD BLASTED THE AGE OLD TEMPLE LOCATED AT THE TOP OF THE MINING HILLOCK{GRR MIINE}LOCATED IN AP REGION, WHERE AS HE WAS PROTECTED FROM LAWFUL ACTION BY YSR, SO ULTIMATELY GOD TOOK ACTION ON YSR FOR HIS DEEDS, SHORTLY IN THE LIST THE REMAINING CRIMINALS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES