Strength of Sanatana Dharma
Thursday, 14. January 2010 - 9:12 PM
Today is Makara Sankranti, celebrated across India to both herald the beginning of longer days, and reap the harvest of months of backbreaking work in the fields. But the greater significance of Makara Sankranti like most Hindu festivals, is to highlight another living instance of the amazing cultural unity of India. People in Karnataka exchange a mixture comprising sugarcane blocks–artistically moulded into various forms and figures and shapes of Gods, Goddesses, flowers, fruits, animals–white sesame seeds, jaggery, and a piece of sugarcane. In Andhra Pradesh, sugarcane is replaced by the jujube fruit (Regi Pandulu) and sweets and delicacies are prepared and offered to God. Assamese are more creative: they have on offer at least 10 different varieties of Pitha, a kind of rice cake. Gujaratis wait for this to zestfully fly kites all over and make Undhiyu and Chikkis (sweetmeat made of sesame, jaggery and peanuts). Maharashtra feasts on tilgul (sweetmeat made from sesame) and Gulpolis, and wish each other peace and prosperity. Tamil Nadu gorges on varieties of pongal–thai pongal, mattu pongal and kannum pongal, each variety of pongal as a way of offering gratitude to the Sun, cattle, and friends and relatives. Every state and place–Bundelkhand, Rajasthan, Punjab, Bengal, Goa, Kerala, and Orissa–has its unique way of celebrating Makara Sankranti but contains a subterranean thread that ties all of them with India. The hand that spins this thread till today is the same hand that enabled India to withstand the most barbaric attacks in history. Festivals like this provide a clue to the reason behind this incredible strength of the hand of Sanatana Dharma.
Among others, Sanatana Dharma’s greatest strength is its amazing power of adaptability, which gives it this strength. It responds to change in a manner and quickness that perhaps none of the other religions (desert death cults are not religions) can. This adaptability as history shows us, is multipronged, multifaceted, and dynamic. It took varities of forms in art, painting, music, epics, literature, religious practices, and social mores. It discarded practices that were no longer suited to the changed times but replaced them with suitable modifications and/or evolved newer ones. The underlying idea was a resolve that Sanatana Dharma was something worth preserving and dying for its preservation if necessary.
The earliest threat to Sanatana Dharma came from Buddhism, which our secular dunces claim rescued society from the evil Brahmins/caste system of Hindusim. When Buddhism arrived, Sanatana Dharma had become overtly ritualistic, which was pretty much Buddha’s diagnosis. However, over time, Buddhism became missionary and while people converted in large numbers, an irreversible corruption had set in. Santana Dharma responded by evolving the temple culture. This ensured that ordinary people had a terrific alternative to worship God apart from rituals. The role of temple culture in sustaining and preserving Sanatana Dharma can’t be emphasized enough. It created whole cities and towns around it, gave rise to some of the most magnificent works of art the world has seen, and in effect, propagated harmony in society.
Needless, the next biggest threat to Santana Dharma came in the form of seas of men on horseback motivated by a murderous, imperialist ideology. Islam’s grievous and protracted assault on Hinduism sustained because of a lack of awareness of its true nature. This assault continues to this day in various forms–negation and distortion of history, secularism, and mafia-style politics. It took a few centuries, but Hinduism responded by evolving the Bhakti movement and retelling our epics. The Bhakti movement arose in the wake of Islam’s homicidal record of smashing temples and not allowing new ones to be built. Additionally, the egalitarian Dhimmi “privileges” that Hindus enjoyed made it almost impossible for Hindus to even give expression to their deepest religious needs. The Bhakti movement stepped in to check the real danger of Sanatana Dharma eroding forever. It basically said that God didn’t exist merely in temples or in the mantras but in each of us. They exhorted people to preserve their way of life and worship in whatever form–nothing was taboo. The Bhakti saints worshipped our Gods and Goddess in songs composed in simple and/or rustic lyric in the local language. Rama became every Hindu’s neighbour and Krishna was just waiting on the other side of the river. These saints drew parallels from daily life, which helped immensely in retaining Sanatana Dharma as a living tradition. Over time, the sword of Islam was blunted to a great extent. South India saw a host of poets and writers and saints embark on a retelling of our epics. Sanatana Dharma owes enormous debt to all these souls.
The British takeover of India launched the other desert death cult Christianity, on Sanatana Dharma, which had begun to unshackle itself from Islam’s 800-year long attack. Christianity’s attack was refreshingly sophisticated but equally brutal. When it failed to persuade through several attempts, it reclothed its message and equated its Prophetic preaching with whatever parallel it found in Sanatana Dharma. In effect it said Christanity is no different from Santana Dharma–only the Gods and saints were different. Initially, significant numbers of “upper caste” Hindus converted. However, the gains were insignificant because almost in no time, the Hindu response was swift. Besides, a fierce tide of Hindu resurgence led by the likes of Swami Dayananda Saraswathi and Vivekananda pretty much scuttled conversion attempts. The Church quickly realized that it cannot win converts if it takes on Sanatana Dharma purely on the ground of religious precepts. Which is pretty much when the missionary vultures descended on the weaker, and poorer sections of Hindu society. The Church continues this preying activity unchecked today–any deception including but not limited to murder is justified in the service of the humanity, welfare, kindess, love, and compassion that Jesus Christ stood for. However, the greatest damage that the British enslavement of India did was to create the Macaulayite Class, who branched off later as Brown Sahibs and Marxists. This was something Islam couldn’t accomplish in 800 years. Sanatana Dharma responded in various ways: the likes of Swami Vivekananda tirelessly reawakening the Hindu pride, a whole galaxy of scholars who began digging into different aspects of their past and publishing it to the world, and freedom fighters who found inspiration in Sanatana Dharma’s epics, scriptures, saints, and warriors.
Post-Independence, the Nehruvian regime continued the project of destroying Sanatana Dharma that the British had abandoned in a hurry. Till the late ’80s, the toxic atmosphere ensured that Hindus were ruthlessly put on the defensive. However, as a parallel development, an unpopular section of academics, thinkers, writers, and scholars worked silently and did two things, primarily: they produced top-notch defense of Sanatana Dharma and studied and exposed Islam and Christianity for what they are. Various organizations defended and championed Hindu causes in the political and social spheres. This paved way for yet another resurgence of Sanatana Dharma in the ’90s. But most importantly, it gave tremendous international exposure and support for Hindu causes. Obscure but valuable Hindu traditions were revived, and research began in areas like Ayurveda, astronomy, metallurgy, education, architecture, etc. However, this resurgence didn’t carry enough sustaining power and while it trudges ahead silently, the pace leaves a lot to be desired.
Tailpiece:
As we speak, Sanatana Dharma is relentlessly assaulted from almost all directions: Islam, the Church, Marxists, media, establishment, politicians, academics, and NGOs. What’s worse is the fact that a large portion of these attack originate from Hindus themselves. Hindus have mostly lost large parts of the North East to Christianity and continue to witness the results of a massive, ongoing conversion drive, while Islam continues to gain ground through the power of sheer numbers. Repeated attacks on Hindus, their way of life, places of worship, and institutions are denied, justified, obfuscated, or brazened away. Hindu response to these acts meet the same fate, and neither is the response significant. The continued apathy especially from the newly-emerged but large middle-class Hindus only adds to the magnitude of the threat. We only need to wait and see if Sanatana Dharma is capable of reasserting itself and showing the world the value it offers for eternity.
Tags: Attack on Sanatana Dharma, Cultural Unity of India, Defense of Hinduism, Defense of Santana Dharma, Dharma, Hindu, History, Indian Philosophy, Indian Politics, Makara Sankranti, Pseudosecularism, Pseudosecularism Hall of Shame, Response of Hinduism to Challenges, Sanatana Dharma, Sankranti, Strength of Hinduism, Strength of Sanatana Dharma
14. January 2010 - 10:07 PM
Sandeep Excellant article, i want to emphasise some more points initially buddhism which started as a no-god religion later started worshiping buddha as a God in its viharas, which was just their endorsement of hindu worship.
the onslaught of muslim conquest was not checked by bhakthi movement alone it was put to a full stop by the hindu military resurgence once they understood the war tactics of the barborous invaders eg Sikh, Rajput,Vijayanagar,Maratha militaries gave a fitting reply to their military campaigns and prevented further onslaught and dhimmitude
xtians started with a bloody trail like goa inquistions and then british took the other way of vile and deceit
14. January 2010 - 10:10 PM
to fight the onslaught in the present the intiative is among us, v shud intiate our children to read sanskrit and local language as an extra curricular so that they can read our texts and scriptures themselves and not through any perverted translations
15. January 2010 - 1:21 AM
Boy, everyone was/is out to get the Santana Dharma (SD). What a bummer.
A hypothetical scenario (wishful thinking, perhaps): What happens if India becomes a godless state (note, not “secular”)? Why not have an experimental period of “no religion” versus “all religions are equal”?
More realistically, maybe SD is overrated, (let’s not get into the realm of afterlife. Why? Two words: empirical evidence). I think the arguments maybe far more meaningful, if there is support for the hypotheses that those who don’t follow SD have a lower quality of life (as I said discussing the afterlife is a trifle pointless). Why keep it a matter of “belief”, lets make it a little “scientific”?
Thirdly, why not have a free market approach to SD? Why gloom over the past, victimize oneself, and cry foul (or is this blog a component of that “strategy”)? If it’s a superior product, it will sell (buyer’s beware/disclaimers may be required). Hence, why not commoditize SD? What’s the point of ruing over centuries of “misfortune”, when once can globalize the product for “profit” (not counted in any currency)?
I don’t think I agree with your ideas (except perhaps the Uniform Civil Code), but I think your arguments are important in the interest of free speech.
15. January 2010 - 7:56 AM
Ramkumar,
“…xtians started with a bloody trail like goa inquistions and then british took the other way of vile and deceit” – British effort at conversion stopped at Sepoy Mutiny. British are the classic baniyas, the moment they felt that their efforts at loot can be stalled by the reaction against conversion-ist doctrine, they immediately decided to change the strategy. Goa might have been repeated country-wide, but the most under-appreciated consequence of mutiny is the slow down of missionary activity.
15. January 2010 - 8:39 AM
sid,
agree they didnt openly prolesytize aftewards but made sure to keep us in divide by propping up AIT,breaking the hindu-muslim understanding which had developed in the society,imparting their views through education etc
15. January 2010 - 8:46 AM
http://noompa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/situating-the-mutiny-in-the-indian-colonial-experience-an-attempt-to-deconstruct-heterogeneous-policies-in-british-administration-post-1857/ has a good material on the fallout of 1857
15. January 2010 - 11:29 AM
Hats off to you Sandeep, for the excellent article. It is amazing to such a diverse acceptance of hindu festivals does not stop the communists from treating our religion like dirt.
15. January 2010 - 12:16 PM
Good one Sandeep but obviously you have not heared about “BHRAT SWABHIMAN AANDOLAN”. If you get to see , watch Aastha channel between 8 to 9 PM each day.
15. January 2010 - 12:40 PM
Hey, mattu pongal is the third day of pongal festival in TN to celebrate the cattle and kaanum pongal is a day of relaxation and socialising, not pongal varieties
15. January 2010 - 5:44 PM
Sandeep, good article but I want to make a few points -
1. You have not mentioned the Inquisition in Goa, and other areas adjoining.
2. It must be mentioned that the British were not as interested in conversions as they were in looting. The church of England had broken from the Catholic church a long time back, and they were even at that time better from the Catholics.
3. The chief threat to India comes from the Vatican (Catholicism) and Baptists (from the U.S. South). There are other churches that are active, and I have been told that Eastern Orthodox church is not a threat because they do not proselytize and don’t seek converts, though I do not know this for sure.
15. January 2010 - 5:46 PM
“and they were even at that time better than the Catholics”. Typo.
15. January 2010 - 7:49 PM
GUys,
Conversion , as we all know, is a modern weapon for colonising vulnerable nations,
India is 70% young and that is more than 72 crore youngsters. History shows that young country always gets ahead. Now how does this pose a big threat to the entire Western Civilization
Growth of INdia is a serious existential threat to the Westerners
1. Food price is soaring because India is now importing Wheat. Consumption is going high in India
2. Oil prices are higher
3. Clothes are getting expensive for the west
4. Jobs are becoming scarce because of the educational qualification of the youngsters in this country.
5. Family system is giving the greatest social security for us.
By converting US and the west get either a subservient nation in India or create internal strife and ensure the next 20 years are blunted. This will negate this YOUTH advantage of India.
THe sooner we understand and play the game the better for our future.
First is to save our lives, livelihood and ensure we continue our dependence on our civilizational strength.
15. January 2010 - 8:23 PM
dharm_jey, you are wrong on many counts. First of all – the West is not “christian” as you call it, however, one form or the other of christianity is the default religion.
Two – they are not thinking of inflation or anything, what they are thinking of is money. Every single church takes at least 10% of it’s members income. This amount is called as “tithe”, and it is this revenue stream that any proselytizing church has in its mind. The more the followers, the more the money for the people up top. Money is also siphoned off by becoming a political entity in an area, and controlling the government. For example take Nagaland. The population of this state if India is only 2 million (20 lakhs), but its annual GDP is one billion dollars, most of it siphoned off to the Baptist church in Southern U.S. Most people of Nagaland remain tribals. You can confirm these facts online.
15. January 2010 - 8:25 PM
Addendum – 95% of Nagaland is Baptist christian and terrorist. 87% of Mizoram is Christian and all the political parties in these states are Christian controlled.
15. January 2010 - 9:22 PM
By publishing this well-written piece on your blog, you have done your land and people a great service. Thank you Sandeep.
15. January 2010 - 9:34 PM
Hello Blogger Friend,
Your excellent post has been back-linked in
http://hinduonline.blogspot.com/
- a blog for Daily Posts, News, Views Compilation by a Common Hindu
- Hindu Online.
15. January 2010 - 9:34 PM
this post is 10 out of 10.
15. January 2010 - 11:14 PM
Excellent article Sandeep!
On your following statement I would like to have a small clarification:
“The earliest threat to Sanatana Dharma came from Buddhism”
Here I believe you are representing Buddhism inside the boundary of Sanathana Dharma and consider Buddha as an internal critic of Sanathana Dharma. Do I perceive it correctly?
Thanks
16. January 2010 - 4:25 AM
Besides most of the early Buddhist monks were upper caste HIndus who had turned to Buddhism and most of the buddhist literature and philosophy was written by them.
Rather than a threat, I see Buddhism as developing out of Hinduism–Even if most of India had become buddhist, it would have been much better than large sections turning Muslim or Christian in that these two religions are the polar opposites of the Dharmic religions.
16. January 2010 - 5:33 AM
Tamil Nadu gorges on varieties of pongal–thai pongal, mattu pongal and kannum pongal
“Pongal” is the festival as well as a dish (two rather).
Thai – is the month that starts on Pongal the festival. So Thai Pongal is the day of the festival.
The next day – Mattu Pongal celebrates cattle, as you say, and Kanu or Kaanum Pongal is when you go out and visit places/ sisters pray for their brothers (very like Raksha Bandhan).
Pongal the dish comes in 2 varieties – Venpongal (salty) and Sakkarai Pongal (sweet).
16. January 2010 - 8:37 AM
Hello Ellsworth,
As one whose “belief” leans towards atheism, I’m in agreement with much of what you say. A couple of points:
>>Why not have an experimental period of “no religion” versus “all religions are equal”?
The “all religions are equal” approach is nonsense at any rate, because all religions are NOT equal. Abrahamic faiths are intrinsically intolerant, exclusivist and expansionist, and are therefore sources of conflict. Oriental faiths are generally more peaceful and “self-regarding” in nature. Ergo, if state must promote religion at all — assuming validity in the argument that “spiritual need” is a darwinian response hardwired in humans — then it’s better off supporting Hinduism/Buddhism. In India we do just the opposite. Christianity, Islam and socialism have inveigled themselves into a privileged position in the state’s reckoning because they need state support in order to survive and spread. Threrefore ..
>> Thirdly, why not have a free market approach to SD?
A “free market of religious ideas” can only exist not when the godless state takes a hands-off approach to religion, but takes the bold approach of countering “religious” ideas that are opposed to human freedoms. The resistance to this approach will come largely from Christians, Muslims and Communists.
16. January 2010 - 9:33 AM
Ellsworth,
In a “No religion” phase all classical art forms will suffer since all of these are fundamentally based on religious mythology. Indian fine art forms such as sculpture, Music and Dance etc… though have the capability to transcend religion are rooted in religious base. Can you imagine India without its vibrant art forms? How do you like it?
Besides religion also offers positives like belief, hope, comfort etc to the mass to counter negatives such as insecurity, fear etc. Science can never fill the big vacuum which absence of religion can create.
About your reference to afterlife, my advice is do not think too much about this if you are not convinced. Acceptance of afterlife is not inevitable to appreciate Sanathana Dharma. Sanathana Dharma has huge ready made supply of information for people at different tastes and mindsets. Individual has the option to select any of them which he is comfortable with, also individual can ‘SENSIBLY’ extend any of the SD threads and provide improvisation which is also well accommodated.
“Boy, everyone was/is out to get the Santana Dharma (SD). What a bummer”
and patent for the same lies with you.
This is your own statement boy
16. January 2010 - 11:00 AM
Ellsworth also thinks Beethoven’s music is malevolent.
16. January 2010 - 11:46 AM
@OT
What I implied was “all religions are to be treated equally”, I assumed its obviousness, but I was wrong. My apologies.
Just did a cursory search on “spiritual”, “needs”, “darwin” on PsycARTICLES, and I don’t think there is much validity to the hardwired argument(zero hits). Maybe Maslow’s theory of the hierarchy of needs serves your purpose better. However, just to play the devil’s advocate, say it is true (i.e. the hardwired argument), why should the state have any business promoting any religion (I understand you are saying “if at all”, but really, the question begets, why? Isn’t that religious-socialism (state getting into the “business” of “religion”?
Secondly, in a laissez-faire free market, the rules of the game would be the same for all, so if someone does not want to play by them, they can, and will be forced to leave the marketplace (I am sure the Keynesians will roll their eyes, at my “faith” in free markets, but what the heck!).
Thirdly, regarding the “privileged position” of Islam and Christianity, think 12/06/92, and Gujarat 2002. Also, the communists would love to have a godless state, given their history with God. That’s probably the only good thing about them.
@Bhamathi
A shrink also offers hope, belief, etc., to those who visit him (or her), and while there are cost associated with it, religion is not entirely “free”. Hence, religion, is not the sole source of “positive thinking”, there are other avenues that can be explored to avoid “negatives”. So we may be able to survive without religion, if we try. BTW, people do.
It is not possible to imagine an India without its art forms. But, that’s the past, hence, it is possible to imagine an India, where those links are severed or minimal. Culture evolves, and being rooted in the past, is not necessarily very “healthy”. Hussain’s interpretations of Hindu Goddesses is quite interesting, and perhaps an example of such evolution.
I am not arguing for science to take over religion (e.g. godless = science-based). I am arguing for a scientific approach to popularize “Sanatana Dharma”, because quite frankly this blog reminds me of the phrase “preaching to the choir”. Hence, I hypothesize that those middle-class disinterested Hindus, will maintain status quo, and/or remain unconvinced (like me). It’s a little bit like having Sarah Palin as your running mate, your “choir” will vote for you, but no one else. And yes, by the way, the “choir” is loud, but who cares?
I could be wrong though, maybe preaching to the choir is the message here
Lastly, why make it personal? Did I call the blogger, an imbecile, who doesn’t understand the importance of separation of “church” and state (in a very ironic way, that’s exactly what he’s? proposing, and did I just say that? Haha!).
16. January 2010 - 12:01 PM
@Kaffir
LOL. With that leap of faith, you make even the religious right, look like the soldiers of “logic”! Haha!
16. January 2010 - 2:11 PM
Hello Ellsworth,
My apologies too. I thought you are also an atheist, but it appears you feel closer to Abrahamic faiths, given you are very eager to dispute the fact that they tend to be privileged in India by the state.
Re: Darwin and religion, note that I was assuming that you _might_ claim that human beings have a natural urge for spirituality, merely as an academic argument. Sorry if I jumped the gun. I agree with you that an explanation for religion on the basis of natural selection is difficult to offer, but the famous evolutionary biologist Dawkins mentions this as a point that finds favor with some other academics. I suggest you read him. To be sure, what is the spiritual quotient of Islam and Christianity after all? Both are political systems aiming at world conquest, and I am not sure if conquest over other members of the species is a darwinian impulse.
Re: state’s promotion of faith. Note that I am not asking: “should state favor any particular religion?”. I am glad we both are on the same page on the answer to this one. My question was: “if state should promote religion at all, should it be promoting doctrinally intolerant/expansionist faiths like Islam/Christianity, with all the attendant conflict and misery, or is it better off promoting Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism etc?” We in India seem to be privileging the wrong faiths, assuming the answer to the first question is “yes”.
I am quite surprised by your mention of Babri Masjid etc, because they typically pops up five minutes into a discussion with Islamists, evangelicals and Marxists on any topic concerning the special status of “minority” religions in India. Perhaps that surprise is unwarranted. Like I said, I assumed that you are an atheist. You see, that Hindus do not favor Islam etc is a no-brainer. My claim is not that they do. To the contrary, I think Babri etc are symptoms of the social distortions that result when the state favors one religion over the other (unless of course the population is Muslim- or Christian-majority). All the more reason why a godless state as you suggested is a good idea — I only wish you remain true that idea.
Let’s come to the final point. Market place of ideas. Suppose Coca Cola and Pepsi are competing in a market. Is it a free market if Art 25 of the constitution exempts Coca Cola plants from the usual industrial regulations? Or exempts it from the usual tax regime? Or stipulates that Coca Cola drinkers are favored for government jobs over Pepsi drinkers? Or allows Coke to publish material alleging that Pepsi drinkers will rot and die? Or worse yet, allows Coke to distribute, with every bottle purchased, a booklet that calls for slaying Pepsi drinkers wherever the drinker may find them, after the summer has passed?
You are falling into the trap set by Christian/Islamic fundamentalists when you claim that a market that grants _them_ freedom is a “free market”. I dispute this bogus definition. Reminds me of the famous Humpty Dumpty quote: words mean whatever one wants them to mean.
A fundamental tenet of a “free system” is that it does not undermine the freedoms of any of the participants of the system. Hope this helps.
16. January 2010 - 2:24 PM
Ellsworth,
Culture evolves but only within strict boundaries. Huge swathes of population cannot just switch their religious and cultural affiliation to try your experiment of ‘no religion’ for a while. Communists have tried and failed in Russia and will fail in China.
India is Hindu nation, after the partition. Thank god for that. Your raves about free market being a solution for all is silly too. Sanatana Dharma doesn’t have to compete with abrahamic faiths in the marketplace, because it isn’t economy at work here, but culture which is an entirely different interaction between people compared to material.
I am all for Indian government to start supporting Hindus openly, and start shedding the mask of secularism. Please note that you can have an american accent, drink in their bars, even marry one of their white girls, but to them, you are Indian and always will be. That’s human tendency. Why should Hindus act all noble and accept everyone. Especially Muslims and christians who openly laugh at us.
16. January 2010 - 2:44 PM
Ellsworth,
“It is not possible to imagine an India without its art forms. But, that’s the past, hence, it is possible to imagine an India, where those links are severed or minimal. ”
Not sure I understand your statement here. I being from science background from academics would like logical reasoning. Therefore, some questions I would like your responses on:
1. what do you mean by that’s the past when it comes to classical art forms? do you think is it not present?
2. Fundamental question is why we should severe links with the past do you see any issues in pursuing them?
3. What is the harm in involving oneself in (or appreciating) time tested art forms? These art forms have evolved over few millennium so whats the issue in taking the benefit out of it?
4. Last but not the least, what is the aesthetics behind Husain’s improvisations? You appear to be his fan, please pick your favorite art creation from him and try to share your art appreciation.
“I am not arguing for science to take over religion (e.g. godless = science-based). I am arguing for a scientific approach to popularize ‘Sanatana Dharma’”
Good you appear to be possessing good intentions and lot of ideas. Alright, provide more insights about your argument, let us welcome your ideas if they are worth considering. Waiting for a detailed plan from you
“Hence, I hypothesize that those middle-class disinterested Hindus, will maintain status quo, and/or remain unconvinced (like me). It’s a little bit like having Sarah Palin as your running mate, your “choir” will vote for you, but no one else. And yes, by the way, the “choir” is loud, but who cares?”
I will discount ‘choir’, ‘Sarah Palin’ and ‘running’ from the discussion, we can do without them.
I believe you are trying to represent middle class disinterested Hindus, instead better to represent oneself instead of taking all that burden (small sample set is always better you know). Let us make it simple, what are your ideas on scientific approach… etc.. etc…? Please put forward the same.
16. January 2010 - 4:59 PM
Ellsworth,
Firstly please understand what is Hindu belief. It is a civilization. That is exactly what sandeep has tried to elucidate here.
In India we believed and worshipped truth. First unversity in Human History was in Taxila and then in Nalanda.
Big Bang theory has been lifted from Lord Nataraja Statue.
The times of explosion of Hiranyagarbha to the creation of Sun, Earth by Brahma as 1400 crore years, 500 crore years and 432 crore years have not been mentioned by any other civilization or religion.
Then comes Vishnu with 10 avatars the clearly put forth the truth of evolution: from fish(matsya) to Kali.
Lord shiva in the form of Nataraja represents the state of BrahmAand(anda means egg) and we all know the Universe is in the shape of an egg. The rim of the statue has flames flying out. THe Earth is hurtling at 35,000 KM/sec due to the initial explosion. And the scientists are calling this expansion leading to either contraction or otherwise. This is called Shiva Hypothesis in NASA.
The whole truth about Eashwara pervading through every atom in this universe is our belief. And I as a modern young INdian am completely comfortable with my faith and science. Nothing escapes Creation(Brahma), sustenance(Vishnu) and Destruction(Shiva).
I would sincerely recommend you to do your reading by Albert Eienstein, Oppenheimer, Carl Sagan, and many other western scientist and their views on Hinduism before you start comparing Indian values with that of Islam and Christianity. The reason I say you read Western guys is because a White man’s word is taken seriously by us. however unfortunate it may be it is the truth.
16. January 2010 - 10:46 PM
=>
LOL. With that leap of faith, you make even the religious right, look like the soldiers of “logic”! Haha!
=>
Naah, no leap of faith, my friend. I’ve developed special skills that enable me to spot the newly-minted Randriod in one glance – far removed from reality, they usually spout nonsense about “rationalism”, laissez-faire and “free-market”, though do not apply laissez-faire when it comes to people choosing religion as panacea.
16. January 2010 - 11:46 PM
Hussain’s interpretations of Hindu Goddesses is quite interesting, and perhaps an example of such evolution
I see an Islamist with a name like Ellisworth. Yes and why does Hussain only portray Hindu goddesses in this fashion? I mean why does not not choose to portray ladies in Islam? Because he knows his hands will get cut off by Islamists in Arabia–who would give such a sentence like they did to Rushdie. With Hindus he can do whatever he wants–Why does he not not portray Mary the way he portrays sita? HMMM. Could it possibly be that Christian wrath would descend upon his like a thunderbolt? Something for you to think about.
Perhaps the man got a fitting sentence–he lives in Dubai now–let him try to depict Muslim women he way he does Hindu Saints then we’ll see….He would not dare cause he knows the sentence he would get…
Only benign Hindus are forced to tolerate such things in the name of ‘art”.
If all religions are to be treated equally, then proselytizing and forced conversions are to be stopped…there is no “equality” when you are faced with aggressive religions. Why should HIndus want their country to turn to Pakistan or Bangladesh next dooor? Parts of India such as Kashmir have turned into Pakistan such as in Kashmir? Why don’t you go preach to the Muslims in Kashmir who forced 400,000 people out of their homes in Kashmir? Teach them about all religions are equal.
16. January 2010 - 11:55 PM
@ellisworth
Arun shourie asks why Hussian does not depict Muslim women the way he depicts Hindu Saints.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hindutva-and-radical-islam-where-the-twain-do-meet/254969/
17. January 2010 - 12:16 AM
@Kaffir
Haha! My new BFF (you are not my friend because your handle is “Kaffir”, but because you called my bluff). BTW, Ellsworth was *not* the take home message for any Randroid, so I am not one (Full disclosure: gave up on her in college). I agree, they are as far removed from reality (see: Alan Greenspan) as the religious right. Though, is it not fun to just rattle the cage with talk of free markets. “You believe in religion, I believe in markets”, we are both “believers”. Alas no one gets it.
And with this blog, and its articles, its like stop crying, provide some proof of the superiority of your “product”, and *try to* capture the “market”. It’s better than spewing hate (“desert death cults” et al.), and it may actually “sell”. Preaching to the choir, is sadly one of the unique properties of the religious right the world over (the left is as guilty, but reality usually has a liberal bias – as Jon S. said).
However, you make a great point: how do you deal with the fundamentally irrational (e.g., religion as a panacea, religion A is better than B) in a “rational” manner. That’s where the fun begins
@Bhamathi
I am going to sound condescending, so my apologies. Having a science degree does not result in a scientific attitude towards life. I can’t educate you about science and the politics and empistemology of science, so read from the list on any doctoral level seminar on the philosophy of science.
And…regarding Hussain, I knew you would fall for it. Do you think I would get into a debate discussing the merits of it. Sheesh.
@Subhash
Thanks for the wonderful sociological insight. This is personal, and as I said to @Bhamathi, my apologies in advance.
“Choir” = {….., Subhash, ….}
Sorry, I don’t like to waste my time.
@OT
My previous BFF. Dawkins is the “anti-religious right”, not too fond of him, he closes minds, and doesn’t open them.
I liked your argument until you mentioned the “social distortion” part. Does your logic apply to the Holocaust? The deniers, make similar claims (Jews had untold power, and wealth) so these “distortions” were kind of waiting to happen. Not cool.
Regarding the godless state, I totally stand by it. Just that, what worries me the most is when the majority runs amok, e.g., Gujarat and Babri. If you are 75-80% of the population, no one can overrun you by organic means, or even by inorganic means of growth (conversions etc.). And if in a democracy, as vibrant as India there is no reason to fear a “takeover”.
And of course, a free market is and should be a free for all, that was the purpose. However, look at the US economy, and it will tell you how fair it has been. Laissez-faire has failed to quite an extent and we are (and rightly) back to the Keynesian mode. Also see the works of Shiller, Akerlof, Kahneman, Tversky – far more meaningful than the noeclassical stuff.
Lastly, it was fun to be here….but so long
17. January 2010 - 8:01 AM
Ellsworth,
LOL, Goodbye
17. January 2010 - 8:24 AM
Ellsworth,
Not sure whether you will visit this thread again since this is not enjoyable to you anymore. If you do Bye.
We are used to people like you.
17. January 2010 - 8:52 AM
Hello Ellsworth,
Please do not go away just because you feel you have a weak argument! If you stay you’ll probably have an opportunity to refine it further and mature your godless-state thought.
>>Dawkins is the “anti-religious right”, not too fond of him, he closes minds
Strangely, that he “closes minds” is precisely the claim of the religious Christian right, as well as the supposedly non-religious Left! Dawkins must be doing something right eh!
Your statement reminds me of my Social Studies teacher long ago in high school, when I was sort of leftwing. A nice chap actually, but in the heat of debate he once said: “your argument is wrong! Because I don’t like the way you put it!”. The class burst out laughing.
You godless-state proposal is an indication that you are capable of accepting or rejecting Dawkins on the basis of reason; I urge you to try it. That he comes down heavily on the Bible and the Church is not a good reason to fear or loathe him, if scientific thought and the godless state idea appeal to you.
>>Does your logic apply to the Holocaust?
Godwin isn’t a cousin of yours, is he.
Of course I do not believe that the ethnic cleansing in Kashmir, which has more in common with the Holocaust if you are seized with the urge to make that sort of comparison, is a result of social distortions. It IS a consequence of the state privileging one religion over the other; but that in itself is the distortion, no other social dynamic is involved. When Abrahamic faiths are in a dominant position, it goes without saying that they control the state, and inflict their doctrinally-inspired intolerance on the other with that much more ease.
>>Regarding the godless state, I totally stand by it.
I am glad you do, it’s just that I cannot read your lips. Maybe you can post a video.
>>If you are 75-80% of the population, no one can overrun you by organic means
The error in your claim is that you are discounting the fanaticism of Abrahamic faiths. They are expansionist and imperial by nature. Undivided India was 75% non-Muslim, but there aren’t many non-Muslim’s left in Pakistan.
Christianity was virtually non-existent in South Korea couple centuries ago; now this is what is happening:
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/14/world/asia/14iht-buddhist.1.16935374.html
Still, I’dn’t say you are fundamentally wrong. Hinduism survived non-organic attempts at expansion by Christianity and Islam. But countering the unprovoked aggression of these faiths requires takes effort and eternal vigilance, the price of freedom.
Best wishes. Do come back, and I do hope the implications of a godless state have not scared you away.
18. January 2010 - 7:06 PM
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18. January 2010 - 7:28 PM
It is not all the Abrahamic faiths that threaten the Hindus, only two of them – the cult of christianity and islam. Most Hindus do understand that something is wrong with islam and muslims even after 6 decades of Nehruvian propaganda of “all religions are peaceful”. It is the cult of christianity that is the real threat here. It is controlling main stream media and trying to seize political power so that it can convert this country easily. Most Hindus are unaware that Prannoy Roy is actually Prannoy James Roy and Pankaj Mishra is a christian too. Walk into any missionary of charity so called “orphanage” and you will find a hundred kids with surnames like “Sharma” and “Dixit” and “Panday”. Most of these kids are kidnapped, so the female thug called mother teresa was running a kidnapping racket and using these kids as the next generation of missionaries. Anyone who thinks that I am lying better read up on the history of the cult of catholicism or even better – try and walk into one of mother teresa’s orphanages. You won’t be allowed to unless you have a search warrant and senior police officials with you.
18. January 2010 - 11:36 PM
=>
….Pankaj Mishra is a christian too.
=>
S, would you have any link to this claim that Pankaj Mishra is a Christian? Thanks.
19. January 2010 - 11:37 AM
Kaffir, I do have several links online, but it would be better if you tried this what I have written above -
“Walk into any missionary of charity so called “orphanage” and you will find a hundred kids with surnames like “Sharma” and “Dixit” and “Panday”. Most of these kids are kidnapped, so the female thug called mother teresa was running a kidnapping racket and using these kids as the next generation of missionaries. Anyone who thinks that I am lying better read up on the history of the cult of catholicism or even better – try and walk into one of mother teresa’s orphanages. You won’t be allowed to unless you have a search warrant and senior police officials with you.”
Incidentally, Sheila Dikshit (this is the way she officially writes her name and her son’s name is Sandeep Dikshit) is a christian, and so is Ambika Soni (plus family).
19. January 2010 - 7:24 PM
S,
Yes, I read your other comment and I am quite aware of the name issue. But, you still haven’t provided any link to the question I asked.
19. January 2010 - 8:18 PM
Ummm, you can check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_festival
Harvest festivals are pretty much celebrated thorughout large parts of the world.
20. January 2010 - 1:23 PM
@karaya
All was good before peace loving, innocent pagans were annhilated by political fascist desert cults from middle east.
There are few bastions of paganism and they will pave the way for the revival of the good old world. The other day I saw a label on a car “Proud to be a pagan”. Indication of good things to come.
20. January 2010 - 8:35 PM
Prachetas,
Please do not equate Hinduism with Paganism. The word “pagan” comes from a Latin word that either means country dweller or rustic. It is a derogatory word used by missionaries to describe any doctrine where they are not considered to have monopoly over God.
21. January 2010 - 12:03 AM
@Dharm_jey
You make so many bold claims that I’m curious of the sources.
>Big Bang theory has been lifted from Lord Nataraja Statue.
Any symbol for explosion can be interpreted to mean a “Bang”. Other than that is there any evidence of the statue signifying the Big Bang Theory? Like galaxies receding away from each other or the cosmic microwave background radiation?
>The times of explosion of Hiranyagarbha to the creation of Sun, Earth by Brahma as 1400 crore years, 500 crore years and 432 crore years have not been mentioned by any other civilization or religion.
Again, what is the source for those numbers and their relevance to the Universe that we observe today? An article in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_units_of_measurement) presents some interesting numbers. One is particularly interesting – one day of Brahma is equal to 4.32 billion years which is close to the age of our solar system. Other than that, there is nothing which relates to what we observe today, unless the wiki article is wrong. For example, at the end of Brahma’s day the _entire_ Universe is created anew, not just the solar system. But the current estimate of the age of Universe is around 14 billion years and we don’t know when it will end.
>Then comes Vishnu with 10 avatars the clearly put forth the truth of evolution: from fish(matsya) to Kali.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying that dashavatar = evolution. In my opinion it is a coincidence. There is no mention of microbes which were the only life forms on earth for a long time and the ancestral line of humans doesn’t exactly line up with the progression of the avatars.
It is fine to be proud of achievements of our civilization. But what disturbs me is saying that everything about our universe was understood thousands of years ago and we are just re-discovering old stuff. The ancient texts got _some_ things about the physical world right. They did not have the tools that we have today. But what they got beautifully right is human nature. You don’t need any special tools to observe human behaviour.
21. January 2010 - 2:02 AM
True, it might be good strategically to not equate the words but most things are not derogatory by themselves until negative propaganda makes them so. Romans, Greeks, Gaulish tribes, native Americans all were pagans and these people had lot of things common with an average rural dweller in the subcontinent. Pagan was given a negative connotation to show the superiority of new cult and so it might be also a good move to reverse it. The comic strip Asterix the Gaul was one of the effective steps in reviving the popularity of the word & concept. Avatar was the most recent attempt.
21. January 2010 - 4:49 AM
“All was good before peace loving, innocent pagans were annhilated by political fascist desert cults from middle east.”
Well I would not call them “innocent” or peace loving–as there were different levels of culture that “paganism” encompassed –I think the high civilization of Hindus can be compared in terms of creativity to the Greco-Roman, Chinese, Egyptian or pre-Islamic Persian. Yet some pagans never ceased to live in the stone age as well (there are still groups like this in India, various tribal groups–so gross generalizations are inadequate.)
Its better to see that the “pagan” high cultures were generally “syncretic” when it came to religion–they did not know of the world views we associate with the Abrahamic religions that make God as “external” to man–
21. January 2010 - 6:01 AM
These is an excellent article on who is responsible.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/09/opinion/the-modern-use-of-ancient-lies.html?pagewanted=1
21. January 2010 - 6:38 PM
I don’t see why all this has to involve the Jewish peoples. They themselves are the originators of Abrahamism from which arise the three desert monotheisms.
We are simply saying that the dharmic religions have a completely different religious outlook than the desert monotheisms which are all revealed religions and each believes that it is the sole truth. The religious outlook of the dharmic religions is comparable to the pre-christian West to a certain extent in that their religion was “syncretic” and there was no “book” supposed to contain the absolute truth.
One should not lose sight of this fact and get confused with conflict between Christians and Jews and what not…These people have more in common with each other than they have in common with a Hindu or Buddhist…
22. January 2010 - 6:42 AM
larissa,
there may be no relation between hinduism and judaism, but there are some sense of commonality between both of them , both had suffered invasions, suffered in the hands of its non-believers, both are demonised by others , both dont proleystize their religion and so on
22. January 2010 - 9:26 AM
As far as I can see there is absolutely no commonality between the experience of the Jews and the Hindus–neither in thought, culture, race or outlook. I can’t speak for the jewish experience– but they are no longer “victimized” in any sort of fashion as far as I can see. Its a complete misunderstanding of history to compare them to Hindus. And as for proselytization–I don’t agree with you–the proselytization is in a different manner from Christians or Muslims, but is there nevertheless in its own fashion…
22. January 2010 - 9:31 AM
Anyway, this discussion was about Hinduism. Don’t see how Jewish people figure in it in any way. When I read their holy books, I cannot see any commonality at all–Sorry.
23. January 2010 - 6:08 PM
For the weekend
http://www.zimler.com/books.php?id=37&det=1
Shortly after Portuguese troops conquered Goa from the Sultan of Bijapur in 1510, they began forcing the tens of thousands of Hindu residents to convert to Christianity. In 1540, during a wave of fanaticism, they destroyed 300 Hindu temples, many of them built in ancient times. Then, in 1545, a Spanish Jesuit missionary named Francis Xavier petitioned the Portuguese Crown to establish the Inquisition. Once the king’s approval had been secured, the former Hindu population of Goa , as well as the hundreds of secret Jews living there, found themselves at the complete mercy of the Church. Simply keeping a statue of Shiva in a family shrine, or whispering a Hebrew prayer over the grave of a loved one, became a serious criminal offence. Those discovered to be practicing their old beliefs in secret were summarily arrested and tortured in dungeons, kept in shackles by priests hoping to force them to divulge the names of friends and family members who had joined them in their ‘heretical’ practices.
23. January 2010 - 7:28 PM
OK. What is your point? From the point of view of religion purely, the three revealed religions have a lot in common amongst themselves–which is why it is easier for them to understand each other than for Buddhists or Hindus to understand them. The Jews have never had a home since they were dispersed millenia ago. The have been living as minorities everywhere in Europe and the Middle-East. Hindus have a country and a continuous civilization–they are not some minority group throughout history–despite the recent diaspora more or less Hindus have been identified with India which has continued to exist if not as a political entity from back in time, at least it has continued as a cultural entity which encompassed the subcontinent . In Spain and Jews and Christians were considered second class citizens when the Muslims took over. So by your logic Jews and Christians are the same.
My point is that the Abrahamic religions have more in common with each other, none of them display any sympathy for dharmic religions, and Hindus in general should not be concerned with quarrels between the various Abarhamic sects, but focus on preserving what is their own, and focus on their own problems. I don’t see why there are concerned with people they have nothing in common with–either culturally, philosophically or even racially for that matter.
24. January 2010 - 4:15 AM
I know this post is probably going to invite a lot of criticism but I do want to know if this is something that we well, don’t want to talk about loud. I know for a fact that a lot of comments made out here hit against every other religion that exists here but you do have to admit that our religion (Sanathana Dharma) isn’t perfect and fact is these flaws become compelling reasons for people to migrate to other religions. I am not saying there isn’t forced conversion in all places but people do convert due to the way they are treated in our religion. The majority of the people converting to other religions are dalits. I mean the fact that we do have a whole lot of the rural side and following such discrimination in my mind is no different from untouchability (ex: the The wall in the Uthapuram village of Madurai district). I have always believed that any any religions have survived because they can reform itself during the right time. Sanathna Dharma itself has survived because it has undergone such reform ,the deeds of Shankaracharya and the Bhakthi Movements being examples of these. Well the point I am basically trying to emphasize here is the fact we do need to introspect on first reforming our religion before we go on blaming the others.
24. January 2010 - 4:48 AM
No one is blaming here–its important for Hindus to understand properly their religion and heritage so they can sustain it properly–yes, people have to try to bring marginalized groups to the Hindu or Buddhist or to the Dharmic religious fold if they do not want these people to be lost to the other faiths, who are only keen to add members as that is their creed.
As for Jews being compared to Hindus, that is nonsense–moreover they are pretty of engaging in propaganda for themselves without Hindus taking their side….
24. January 2010 - 4:53 AM
I meant to say quite “capable” of…
Yes, Hindus have to find ways to bring marginalized groups into the fold…
24. January 2010 - 7:13 AM
@Larissa
“No one is blaming here”
-Well thats debatable look at all the comments above. The message you would get is that we are under constant attack from external agencies who use underhanded methods of trying to destroy the religion, but we are not even trying to address the fact we are succumbing to those tactics are because we have many internal flaws that we need to recognize that and start changing the religion for better.
24. January 2010 - 7:17 AM
@larissa,
these same people who have nothing in common with us have screwed up civilizations across Americas, Europe and Asia. If Hindus still refuse to understand Abrahamic dynamics and functioning there would be no bigger fools. The dharmic religions which were running universities for centuries in curreent day pakistan, Afganistan have disappeared in a matter of days becoz they never bothered to understand and deal with people who were different from them. I think understanding the differences, knowing any little similarities is worthy. Otherwise, we will continue to blindly buy their propaganda.
24. January 2010 - 7:18 PM
“-Well thats debatable look at all the comments above. The message you would get is that we are under constant attack from external agencies who use underhanded methods of trying to destroy the religion,”
Here are some facts. Read them and decide whether there is an attack or not -
1. Hindus have been killed and chased out their homes in the Kashmir valley. About half a million are refugees in New Delhi camps, and even more spread throughout India. If you are a non-muslim in Kashmir without an army escort, you will be beheaded. All politicians of Kashmir are muslim.
2. Nagaland, a state populated by tribals and the target of the Southern Baptist church (U.S.) is 95% baptist and the Wiki page of Nagaland states that about 25,000 people have been killed in the “seperatist” (actually christian) violence in the last 30 years. The count of 25,000 is official, but in a state that is heavily forested, can you really count how many innocent Nagas were the victims of the “holy” missionaries ? You must also know that the annual GDP of Nagaland is one billion dollars (one thousand million dollars) but the Nagas are tribals ? Where is the money going ? To the top bosses of the Southern Baptist Church.
3. Mizoram, another state of India populated by tribals, is now 87% christian. Read up on a story similar to Nagaland.
4. Prannoy Roy is Prannoy James Roy. Ambika Soni is a christian. Raul John Paul is going under the moniker of Rahul Gandhi. About 70% of Main Stream Media is controlled by different churches. This is why they don’t talk about the North East, and the truth about Kashmir. They are not concerned about national interest, only getting as many converts so that they can earn more money. You do know about tithe in the cult of christianity ?
24. January 2010 - 8:35 PM
Strength of Sanatana Dharma…
It is an excellent write-up. The plight of Kashmi pandits are not taken up by any politicians. If such situation has arisen for Muslims or Christians what a hue and cry would be made on streets by these politicians. Look at Tamil Nadu where none other than the Chief Minister himself speaks ill of Hindu Gods and Hinduism where as keeps mum on other religious gods/ practices even though he is a well acclaimed atheist.
The main problems with Hindus are they are divided and never realises that only unity amongst them would help them
Prasad
24. January 2010 - 10:50 PM
@SHAZ,
“…because we have many internal flaws that we need to recognize that and start changing the religion for better.”
The religion itself does not need any change. It needs correct interpretation so that better social structures can be facilitated. The moment you say that this religion needs a change, you have already fallen for the propaganda.
“…isn’t perfect and fact is these flaws become compelling reasons for people to migrate to other religions.” – let us hear a few first. Caste? Pretty much a missionary line of argument. Caste is not exactly a pan-Indian reality and there are many sects within Hinduism that does not consider castes.
“Well the point I am basically trying to emphasize here is the fact we do need to introspect on first reforming our religion before we go on blaming the others.” – Our religion is the oldest surviving religion, we apparently has got a lot of old baggage in our practices. Every other religion has them. That did not stop the Abrahamic religions to get converts as many as possible. Why should that stop us to arrange for the defence? Introspection is done by many but conversion and a media promoted hatred against us are not exactly hot intellectual pursuits. These are realities that pseudo intellectuals in media and their followers like you fail to recognize. If a few so-called Dalits go out and get converted, I do not see a problem. But if these people come back and decide that stopping our worship may be a good idea or donating money so that media persons can be brought to attack on “idolaters” is a holy responsibility, then that is a huge risk. Secular good-natured people like you who preach peace and understanding to your own when they get butchered yet fail to mention this in front of followers of Abrahamic faith are the main reason our problems are compounded each day.
24. January 2010 - 11:12 PM
Ladies & gentemen,
http://www.hindustantimes.com/editorial-views-on/viewsvirsanghvi/New-findings-on-the-new-media/Article1-501070.aspx
Expect some more “secular”, “intellectual” and “important” egg-heads appearing in blogosphere after one of the cheer leading “intellectual” observed that the new trend is going out of their hands and defending Hindutva (oh God, the world must be ending soon). Aaahhh, even the blogs will be filled with that kind of crap we see in “mainstream” media.
25. January 2010 - 5:20 AM
Shaz,
And why are the Abrahamic religions so attractive vis-a-vis Sanatan Dharm? Do the people who migrate to these other religions not see the big flaws (historical as well as current) in these Abrahamic religions? Slavery, killing of women (burning or stoning), intolerance and killing of non-Abrahamic people – to name a few. How are these “features” better that caste-based discrimination (the one stick used to beat Hindus), is beyond me.
25. January 2010 - 12:25 PM
Well I was expecting backlash and boy did I get it
Anyway
You must also know that the annual GDP of Nagaland is one billion dollars (one thousand million dollars) but the Nagas are tribals.
So what? Nagaland does have people involved in agriculture, in fact 90% of them and besides 1.4 billion is not a lot of money as GDP. If you do have any proof that a “top bosses of the Southern Baptist Church” is getting a load of money I would like to see it.
@Sid
“The religion itself does not need any change. It needs correct interpretation so that better social structures can be facilitated”. I am sorry I should have written reform in religion instead of change of in religion. I was thinking it would have the same understanding and it didn’t so my bad.
“Why should that stop us to arrange for the defense?”
So what exactly is your idea of defense? Should we kill all the Muslims, Christians in India would that solve the problem?
“If a few so-called Dalits go out and get converted, I do not see a problem”. Why do you want anybody to move out of the religion?
“Secular good-natured people like you who preach peace and understanding to your own”
I like the fact you called me good natured, I just hope that you were sincere when you said that.
@ Kaffir
“Slavery, killing of women (burning or stoning), intolerance and killing of non-Abrahamic people – to name a few. How are these “features” better that caste-based discrimination (the one stick used to beat Hindus), is beyond me”.
It is not better in anyway but unfortunately they dont have to live with most of them and the fact that they do have to live with caste-based discrimination, not that it goes away
completely if you get converted but the prospect of being slightly richer and discriminated would seem more lucrative then being poor and discriminated.
Look guys I am not saying those guys are not using money, muscle and media power to get what they want. I am just saying we have flaws too which are helping them. The fact that we people do know theses facts should do something about it.
PS just a request, that we do not make labels(“pseudo intellectuals in media and their followers like you”) when we are trying to make a point. After all we are in this forum to understand others point of view about a subject. I mean I can also call this guy fanatical dickhead but that doesn’t really get me anywhere in the argument does it. If you do have a point please make it without adding adjectives to the guy whom you disagree with.
25. January 2010 - 3:30 PM
Shaz – I gave you a lot of facts. Explain these facts and why you are completely comfortable with them.
26. January 2010 - 3:02 AM
Shaz,
“So what exactly is your idea of defense? Should we kill all the Muslims, Christians in India would that solve the problem?” – And may I ask where did I say that random violence would solve the problem? Random violence never solves anything, it complicates the problem. I may come up with a list of initiatives to stop conversion, but there are other more capable and dedicated gentlemen who has done terrific works in this regard. Try Shourie’s “Missionaries in India” (title may be slightly different) for a basic idea if you are interested.
“PS just a request, that we do not make labels(“pseudo intellectuals in media and their followers like you”) when we are trying to make a point.” – Request rejected. You yourself started the labeling game first. -> “…first reforming our religion before we go on blaming the others.”
We are not blaming someone here, we are accusing others with definite proof of conversion activities. Had the government listened, we would not be talking here.
26. January 2010 - 3:20 AM
Larissa,
Finally found someone who shares the same feelings abt the jew pandering.
Jews can look after themselves very well.I admire them for how they have survived. We do not have to look after them
Little do people realize that all three abrahamic religions have subjugated us. The EIC was dominated by Jewish houses.
No one will look out for us but ourselves and we need to stand on our own two feet.
26. January 2010 - 10:07 AM
Shaz – you are saying “Look guys I am not saying those guys are not using money, muscle and media power to get what they want. I am just saying we have flaws too which are helping them. The fact that we people do know theses facts should do something about it”.
When a Karate black belt breaks into your house and beats you up and steals your stuff, would you say the blame lies with yourself for not having a black belt like the thief? It is impossible to compete with rich nations when it comes to missionary activies or activities mainly meant for conversion but disguised as social service activities. (just like our TV manufacturers cannot compete with Sony). But there are trade restirictions for economic, but sadly none for social issues. Check out Vietnam, China and Thailand and see why missionaires have not been able to spread their deviousness… it is because of the laws. Not because religions followed in China, Vietnam and Thailand are perfect and do not have any flaws. WHEN YOU FIGHT WITH A AGRESSOR, DONT TRY TO VICTIMISE YOURSELF BY LOOKING AT YOUR FLAWS. . There is nothing in this world without a flaw, even a beautiful full moon. If you cannot accept missionaries are agressors, I am afraid there is no meeting point and therefore no point in discussing this.
26. January 2010 - 7:58 PM
Let me guess. Comrade Shaz here is going to claim that he is a Hindu. To add a touch of authenticity, the good comrade is going to claim that he is a brahmin. (Only brahmin Hindus are authentic Hindus in the commie-catholic worldview). Or has he done both already, without wasting much time that is?
26. January 2010 - 11:52 PM
FYI
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100125/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_christian_unity;_ylt=AtUWgYiUrQhjOFRTtNuYSkY7Xs8F;_ylu=X3oDMTMxNzgwbGJjBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMTI1L2V1X3ZhdGljYW5fY2hyaXN0aWFuX3VuaXR5BHBvcwMxMgRzZWMDeW5fcGFnaW5hdGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNwb3BlZGVjcmllc2E-
27. January 2010 - 9:45 AM
@Sid
“I may come up with a list of initiatives to stop conversion, but there are other more capable and dedicated gentlemen who has done terrific works in this regard. Try Shourie’s “Missionaries in India” (title may be slightly different) for a basic idea if you are interested.”
I would love to read it right now, unfortunately, my financial restrictions right now(poor grad student
) do not allow me to buy the book, but I would do definitely try to buy the book in the book in the near future. All though in the mean time I would love to hear what your suggestions are on the matter.
@ OT
“Let me guess. Comrade Shaz here is going to claim that he is a Hindu. To add a touch of authenticity, the good comrade is going to claim that he is a brahmin. (Only brahmin Hindus are authentic Hindus in the commie-catholic worldview). Or has he done both already, without wasting much time that is?”
Well since you are so interested in classifying into one member of your commie-catholic-Islamic fundamentalist-Jewish Zionist-Media lackey nexus plots to rule the world, let me lay down what I believe in. I don’t believe in the system that caste is itself is hereditary. I think one has to earn the right to be a Brahamana, Kshathriya, Vysha or Shudhra. I don’t think our karmas in our previous lives are responsible for a caste you are born into. Our Karmas this life would dictate where we fall into this varanas. After all if i claim to be from any one of the castes by birth it would defeat my argument.
@2bornot2b
“There is nothing in this world without a flaw, even a beautiful full moon. If you cannot accept missionaries are agressors, I am afraid there is no meeting point and therefore no point in discussing this”.
Well I will not dispute that they are aggressors, but by continuing to have caste based discrimination we are just painting a big bull’s eye on ourselves. Why give them an opportunity to criticize us at all, its not that we are looking for their approval but we are just following the basic tenement of Hinduism to the be compassionate to all living things starting with your fellow human being.
For those of you who have stepped up to call me everything from a media lackey to a full blown commie-catholic, (which I think is a cross between communist and a catholic which having a cross between a cat and a dog, catdog) I must ask you do you people actually believe that we have discrimination based on caste lines or not. If your answer is no, well my advice is stop living in a denial mode. If you agree that we do have caste based discrimination, I am asking as someone who cares for the welfare of the Sanatana Dharma that we play a part in stopping it.
27. January 2010 - 12:00 PM
Shaz,
Caste based discrimination does not only exist amongst Hindus. So how come we have never seen an African pope yet?
My husband once recalled how he went to a christain aids hospice and all the women actually doing the dirty work when it came to taking care of the patients were poor tribal girls, not the nuns. So this is not discrimination? That HIndus (and not Christians and Muslims) are the only ones to practice discrimination is the biggest myth propagated by the Indian media (and its not hard to guess what sources most of this media gets its funding from)–
27. January 2010 - 12:23 PM
Shaz – Agree.. .there are some caste based discriminations.. but the colossal entities that propogates discrimination is the government and politicians. Sanatana Dharma does not have anythign to do with it. But, that does not give free license / excuse to anyone to come into my country and con people. People will continue to criticize us regardless. Because, we dont fit their bill… They will criticize us until we toe their line. Let us not be a football of other people’s opinions, but at the same time learn to look at ourselves critically.
27. January 2010 - 9:54 PM
Comrade Shaz,
You aired some unsolicited opinion. You seem to love that sort of thing. Here are my unsolicited opinions, in no particular order:
1. Seriously man, it’s a bad idea to justify communist murder with insensate rationalizations like, “but how does Nandigram discredit communist ideology?” etc. Killing innocent people is not justifiable, no matter what gobbledygook cause one believes in; whether it be the upliftment of the proles or the “freedom struggle” of the Palestinians.
2. The innate intolerance of Abrahamic faiths is brilliantly explained by liberals like Richard Dawkins. The point is that the Christian belief system doesn’t need excuses like the presence of caste system to spread hate against Hindus; its holy book provides ample _theological_ justification for doing so. Some atheist critics of the faith also stress its racist nature. Being essentially white man’s/European’s religion, it continues to serve an imperialist cause.
3. Why do I make point #2 above? Because I am developing my ideas on how the vice-like grip that Abrahamic faiths exercise on identities came to be. How do religious loyalties develop? I am interested in this question as an atheist. Take a dude named D’Souza or Briganza. What makes him a religious fanatic? In all likelihood, misery forced a Gaonkar or a Shirodkar to become D’Souza/Briganza. Perhaps a man was converted on pain of death — the Portuguese were ruthless. Or maybe a pious padre raped an unfotunate woman, all in the name of god. To me a European surname on a dark-skinned Indian conveys embarrassment. I am not suggesting for that reason these names should be dropped. My wonderment is at the power of Abrahamic faiths in transforming defensiveness into fanaticism. Many Muslims likewise believe that their pre-Muslim past was darkness. Naipaul calls this the “convert’s neurosis”.
27. January 2010 - 10:07 PM
Oops, one more unsolicited opinion:
Why do some people post on blogs with multiple identities? I am developing my ideas on this question as well. I think they admire the terrorist’s tactic. If a terrorist is bound by an armyman’s reasonably honorable code of conduct, he cannot accomplish his terrorist objectives. A G.I cannot choose random, non-combatant targets. He cannot kill an armed opponent who wishes to surrender. The trouble with assuming a single, consistently-used net identity is that the guerrilla tactic cannot be used. With multiple identities, consistency of stand and logic can be dispensed with. If you think about it, a terrorist is a coward. In all likelihood, the terrorist’s dad was an asshole too. Boils down to parenting.
28. January 2010 - 12:52 AM
Sudarshan,
Thanks for the links. After Muslims, it is now pope’s turn to act like a victim while real victims struggle to find a listener to their grievances. Now this man would come to India some day and then entire media would run after him to report on his holiness’ grievances.