Clash of Monotheisms Part 2

The rate at which it is going, God’s Own Country will soon be transformed into The Only God’s Own Country. But because Kerala hasn’t reached such an enlightened state of things yet, let’s just call it the Clash of Monotheisms Part 2. In Part 1 of the said clash, two unfortunate girls were kidnapped, forcibly converted to Islam, and illegally detained. But now, things have gotten spicier in the historical hub of world spice trade.

…a college lecturer, T J Joseph, was attacked by some unidentified men who [...] waylaid their vehicle and pulled out the lecturer, after bursting explosives to create a scare. While Joseph was being attacked, his mother and sister were warned not to step out of the vehicle. The gang fled the scene after severing his right hand.

The well-educated, professionally-successful, newly-prosperous, noble-cause-supporting, resort-going, and eco-tourist urban middle crowd has blissfully closed his/her eyes to the Islamic underbelly that lies beneath the bourgeoning tourism industry of Kerala.

Lecturer T J Joseph’s “crime” was to frame this question in the BCom exams.

The question paper, for an internal degree exam in March, contained a text taken from an article written by P T Kunjumuhammed, a director of several award-winning films and former CPI(M) legislator.

Referring to his film Garshom, Kunjumuhammed explained in the article that the thread for a scene in the movie, in which the protagonist speaks to God, was picked from his own experience about a madman who used to speak to God. While reproducing the conversation as a passage for punctuation, Joseph replaced the mad man with Muhammed, thus making it seem like a dialogue between God and Muhammed.

The question paper in the original Malayalam can be viewed here.

It’s a miracle that poor T J Joseph is still alive, presently nursing his wounds after a marathon 15-hour surgery. Needless, Muslim organizations of all hues condemned this “heinous” act etc but, the subtext is clear: Joseph deserved this for insulting the Prophet.

Protesting against the question paper, Muslim organisations, particularly the Popular Front of India and Jamaat-e-Islami, had said it was an insult to Prophet Muhammed.

But of course, the Prophet’s name must be mentioned in nothing except the most profound, flattering, and reverential tones. Anything less is an insult deemed fit for Talibanesque punishment by self-appointed guardians of Islam. To be sure, Kerala currently teems with such self-appointed guardians. And this state of affairs is only the logical outcome–given the nature of forces at play–of what transpired over the past few decades.

The rampant Islamization and all its attendant hooliganism-at-will remains a timebomb waiting to explode. Kerala lost the plot the day communists established their stranglehold in the state and perpetuated it with hook and mostly crook. Following the grand dream of establishing Red Paradise in India, it teamed up with Christists and Islamists to “fight” the common enemy, the Hindus the result of which we’re witnessing today. While it once commanded huge majorities, the Left in Kerala has begun to depend heavily on the support of all kinds of thugs and declared terror-enablers to form a government and stay in power. This includes teaming up with the Kerala Muslim League, the direct descendant of the same Muslim League that said, less than 100 years ago, that Muslims couldn’t stay in a Hindu-dominated country and sliced off that portion of India that is Pakistan today. Then there’s Abdul Nasser Madani, the man allegedly behind the 1998 Coimbatore serial blasts, the 2008 Bangalore blasts, is suspected of having links with LeT, and has served prison for 8 years, booked for sedition. This man heads the PDP, which has an alliance with the ruling LDF. Kerala has today become God’s own laboratory of Islamic terror. The SATP website provides us this intelligence (I provide just a sample below):

[March 17, Kannur & Ernakulam] 185 people from Kerala were reportedly selected by the LeT and provided preliminary training at camps conducted in various centres. The Special Investigation Team (SIT) probing the terror link to Kerala obtained this information from three Kashmiri youngsters, identified as Fiyaz Ahammed (26), Sajad Ahammed Reshi alias Hanzulla and Shabbir Ahammed Tali alias Abu Saquib (20). These three youngsters took part in the terror camp organised by the LeT in Kupwara and Dorusa forest areas in Kashmir during October 2008, along with a five-member team from Kerala. The Lashkar camp had 17 members, including seven Pakistanis and three Kashmiris. Yasin, Fayaz, Shakeer alias Rahim and Fayiz who were killed in encounters with the Police in Kashmir and Abdul Jabbar, who had escaped the scene, constituted the militants’ team sent from Kerala to Kashmir. “The Malayalis joined the camp in the second week of September. Shakeer alias Rahim was their leader. He could speak Urdu,” said Fiaz Ahammed. Shabbir Ahammed Tali told the Police that 180 more youngsters were waiting in Kerala after the preliminary training to join the Jihad. “One Ustad had indoctrinated them,” said Tali.

[Feb 27, Kottayam] Two suspected Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) cadres, identified as Shibili and Hafeez Hussain, who were arrested for reportedly attending a secret training camp held by the outfit in 2007, were remanded to a 15-day judicial custody. About 40 cases were pending against the duo in various parts of the country, including in Gujarat, Indore in Madhya Pradesh, Karnataka and Malegaon in Maharashtra. Nearly 40 SIMI cadres had participated in the camp for about three days, the Police mentioned, adding that till date, ten cadres were arrested in this connection.

I don’t need to separately comment on the extent of penetration and network these worthies have managed to establish.

To be sure, Kerala is not alone. It has its “sister” state, West Bengal for company, where the Communist government has both teamed up with the Islamists and allowed massive influxes of illegal Bangladeshi Muslim immigrants. This influx has almost overnight, altered the demographics of several towns bordering Bangladesh. The conclusive fact being that Communist governments in India are powerless to counter the brutal forces that teaming up with Islamists inevitably unleashes. What was once a mere electoral/rhetorical gimmick is today an evil that is both indispensable and a force that they cannot fight against–like riding the tiger and all that.

T J Joseph’s case, like those Love Jihad cases, wouldn’t have received such widespread media coverage if not for the powerful Christian lobby. It would’ve gone the way of the Marad massacre and numerous other Love Jihad cases where victims were Hindu girls–buried in an obscure column on Page 5. T J Joseph had apologized on an earlier occasion for “insulting” the Prophet but this time around, some extra-devout servant of the Prophet had decided enough was enough. Despite this coverage, it is anybody’s guess which direction this case will head. The fact that Christian fundamentalists like John Dayal, all the way up to Ratzinger..err..the Holy See have pressed the self-mute button shows the Muslims have bet their money on what has historically worked for them: brute force. Fear of death is infinitely more potent than fear of God.

The same applies to the cocktail-sipping and self-righteous secular protest-mongers. Why aren’t they courageously taking up cudgels on behalf of poor T J Joseph like they did on behalf of Qatar’s newest star citizen? Where’s that fire that they once directed against the French President because he said disgusting things about the oh-so-chic burqa? Given all this evidence, why aren’t they calling Kerala as the Islamic terror laboratory the way they labelled Gujarat as the “Hindutva” laboratory? Will Sagarika Ghose stand up and condemn these barbarians as “sullying the fair name of the Religion of Peace” the way she routinely chastises Hindutva fanatics (sic) for “appropriating the fair name of Hinduism?”

However, I apportion a large part of the blame on the expanding middle and upper middle class for blissfully closing its eyes to the reality terror show unfolding before our eyes almost on a daily basis. How did we come to this pass where this class places higher priority over distributing panties to a third-rate, & small-time wannabe politician over being watchful about the more real dangers that it faces? What will it take for them to wake up? A family member’s hand similarly chopped off?

Our apathy will cost us dearly.

 

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213 comments for “Clash of Monotheisms Part 2

  1. Ot
    July 12, 2010 at 11:08 PM

    Hello Comrade Jal Park,

    Interesting dialogue between you and Anand But ..

    >>The question should read: Should we get used to the fact that a lot of people follow Islam?

    Can you remove your left foot off your moth please. Folks here acknowledged that Islam has billions of followers, whereas you have been insisting that only a few follow it … This is getting bizarre, man.

    Regarding the poll Anand mentioned, did you get a chance to look up the Pew Attitudes Survey I referred to earlier? 64% of non-Muslim Indians think Muslims are intolerant, 73% think Muslims are fanatical, 67% think they are violent…. Not lending your theory a whole lot of support, as you can see. I much sympathize with you, but guess who needs to get used to what?

  2. July 12, 2010 at 11:07 PM

    @Anand

    “more uncomfortable with your language that suggests that we must get used to the killing of innocents”

    I can’t believe I’m reading this. After all this time and so many comments you feel that I’m ok with the killing of innocents? Have you actually read nothing I’ve written till now?

  3. July 12, 2010 at 11:03 PM

    @Anand

    You’re not worried by the fact that psecular wants to kill me?

  4. Anand
    July 12, 2010 at 10:59 PM

    @JAL PARK

    >>Are you comfortable with someone using language like this? Isn’t this sort of talk as dangerous as that which some other religions use?

    Oops sorry, missed it the first time round. I am actually more uncomfortable with your language that suggests that we must get used to the killing of innocents than I am with psecular’s.The simple reason is that he hesitates to use his real name unlike you who is posting with true identity. Take two politicians. One is openly asking for bribe (and urging people to get used to corruption) and the second one is secretly collecting bribe, but is publicly pretending to be in favor of clean practices. Who is more dangerous for our country? The second person can be held to values; the fear of exposure holds him back. The first guy is out of control!

  5. July 12, 2010 at 10:57 PM

    @Anand

    You’re ok with psecular saying that I should be quarantined and killed (since I’m an Atheist) ? You really think that’s ok?

    “is the very little support the get-used-to-intolerance idea is getting.”

    That’s because of the nature of this blog. If I were to do the same poll on my own blog, the results would be very different.

    “The question should read: “Do you agree that we must get used to intolerance, terrorist attacks and Islam in general?”

    No. The question should read: Should we get used to the fact that a lot of people follow Islam?

    Intolerance, terrorism etc are acts which are committed by humans. What their religion is should not be a question.

  6. Radical Humanist
    July 12, 2010 at 10:52 PM

    Assuming of course, the muslims are receptive development. But even then how would we know if that can succeed? Saudi Arabia is relatively more developed amongst the developing world, yet it still clings to the pedophile, and more than any other country!

    I brought up Constantinople to show the expansionist nature of Islam. Other examples would be…..North Africa, the Balkans, Iran, Iraq etc. ad infinitum.

    What I am trying to say is that Islam and Modern Civilization are absolutely exclusive of each other. You can’t expect to sit in the sidelines and say “yeah dude, it will be fine if we let it be”. Choose one:
    1. Islam
    2. Peace

    I think, you are not seeing Islam for the threat it is because you don’t believe that it is a demographic timebomb. Others have tried to convince you, but it seems to be of no avail…

    Some possible scenarios of Islam vs. Humanity (regarding England, but India has more Muslims so they should apply)
    This is how things would work out according to you:
    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/07/crystal-ball-for-britain-part-1.html

    And here is how others would see it:
    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/07/crystal-ball-for-britain-part-2.html
    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/07/crystal-ball-for-britain-part-3.html

  7. Anand
    July 12, 2010 at 10:51 PM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park

    I looked at that comment of psecular, and am puzzled as to what you are so worked up about. Islam, Christianity and Communism do want to eradicate anyone who don’t subscribe to their ideology, what is so surprising about it? I told you my experience with a commie who justified the killing of school children by Islamists. There are commie extremists who publicly expressed the view that Nandigram is no blot on their ideology. What is surprising about one more ideology, pissed off by the violence of Islam, Christianity and Communism, joining the bandwagon, if that’s what psecular is doing at all? You reap as you sow!

    Frankly, your line frightens me much more than psecular’s. I am more worried by the implied suggestion in your 9th-grader question that ordinary people should not express any opposition to intolerance and bigotry; that they must instead get used them. I can a imagine sleazy politician like Jyoti Basu gloating and trying to spread cynicism: “see? what can you do about corruption? You can’t stop us even if you are PM, he he he!”. But when it is done by a seemingly educated person like you who also is advocating getting used to it, then, sorry, your protestations about psecular seem like a mugger complaining to the police that his victim rebelled and beat him back!

    But the heartening thing about this debate is the very little support the get-used-to-intolerance idea is getting. If you don’t believe me, you should try this experiment. Do you have a commie blogger friend, like a Briganza or a Dsouza? Ask the fellow to host a poll for you on his blog. The question should read: “Do you agree that we must get used to intolerance, terrorist attacks and Islam in general?” Report the results back — just make sure the commie dude won’t manipulate or delete them. :-)

  8. July 12, 2010 at 10:30 PM

    @Radical Humanist

    I should also mention that religions like Christianity and Islam thrive under persecution. By saying stuff like you want to eradicate it, you’re only putting their backs up. I promise you that such an approach will only make things worse. If you want to look at history, the roman empire tried damn hard to eradicate christianity and we all know what happened.

    It’s far more productive to let people know that there’s no threat to them.

  9. July 12, 2010 at 10:22 PM

    @Radical Humanist

    From what I know, Constantinople fell from outside and not from radical elements within it. What is needed is an example of a community where Islam is in a minority and has risen up and destroyed that society from within.

    But I think you correctly hit on the point of development. To use your words, if history has shown us anything, it’s that development and economics exert a benign influence. This isn’t surprising. Once a person is comfortably off, they don’t want to disturb that position.

    So the best option is to just focus on development and in time (perhaps 50-60 years) we will all be much better off. Incidentally, 50-60 years isn’t a long time in terms of nation building.

  10. Radical Humanist
    July 12, 2010 at 10:16 PM
  11. Radical Humanist
    July 12, 2010 at 10:09 PM

    @BJP
    “The US has never had any great love for Islamic elements. Yet I would think the spectacular cock ups in Iraq and Afghanistan would teach us that just invading another country and engaging in violence doesn’t work.

    Now there are some people who are advocating invading Iran. Ridiculous…”

    The hellholes should be left to enjoy the divine Prophet’s teachings. However, where the pedophile followers are not strong (i.e. not in population majority) , every attempt should be made to stop them from reaching that position. Of course you could say that they are no threat etc. However history does not lie. You can look what happen to Constantinople or Istanbul as it is know today. Islam is at its core a collectivist tribal culture, with expansion as a natural proclivity. True enough all followers are not violent….but once the numbers increase, the violent elements magnify. Look at Saudi Arabia where no other religion is allowed or Pakistan where non-muslims were about 10% at the time of the partition. If you want to see effects today, visit a muslim ghetto in a non-muslim country. I understand cities such as Paris, Brussels, Rotterdam and London have this problem already. How about preaching your gospel of tolerance to them?

    In India, look at Kashmir. And why will the Muslims breed like rats? For one, it is their duty to that to conquer the kaffirs. Also, polygamy. And of course, muslims are always the most undeveloped community from an economic perspective. And there is a strong correlation between the level of development and fertility rates. What is this if not a ticking timebomb?

    Now, look you here, sir. We don’t want to tolerate intolerance. And what better example of intolerance than Islam, hm?

  12. July 12, 2010 at 10:06 PM

    @Anand

    Incidentally Anand, you shouldn’t just be worried about the extremist religions here. Look at psecular’s comment for example. He’s openly advocating quarantining and eradication of anyone who doesn’t subscribe to his particular brand of ideology.

    He recommends the cleansing of Christians, Atheist, Muslims etc – all of them in one sweep and says that none of them are innocent. That “Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism as its usually called is the only system that etc etc…”

    Are you comfortable with someone using language like this? Isn’t this sort of talk as dangerous as that which some other religions use? So let’s just focus on all fanatics instead. Surely you can’t object that no?

  13. July 12, 2010 at 10:00 PM

    @Anand

    For once I agree with everything you say!

    I agree that a minority is a controlling power. The online and onstreet protests in Iran show that large numbers of people are resisting this minority. So yes – we have to be afraid. And this is true for all religious violence. I agree completely.

    But now what do we do about it? Leaving aside Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc let’s turn to our own country. Clearly you and I by ourselves can’t do much other than just being wary and aware of the danger of religious fantaics. If this discussion is to lead to anything without being a complete waste of time, there must be some action that we agree on.

    Which is why I keep coming back to the main point. What would one do if one had the power?

  14. Anand
    July 12, 2010 at 9:33 PM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park,

    >> Yet I would think the spectacular cock ups in Iraq and Afghanistan would teach us that just invading another country and engaging in violence doesn’t work. Now there are some people who are advocating invading Iran. Ridiculous…

    This is a manifestation of the revived crusades that I was talking about. Two of the world’s extremist ideologies, Christendom and Islam, are facing off each other again. (No, I don’t think any decent human being worth his salt should get used to either of them). If Iran also joins the conflict, it will definitely escalate.

    But this is none of our business, and we should adopt a strictly hands-off approach. If there are any lunatics in our country who want to join the frontlines, we shall be glad to ship them off, but the government of India must remain strictly neutral. That is what I said too when some people said that we should send troops to Iraq. We shall not side with either of the warring parties.

    There potentially is an upside to Iran also getting drawn into the crusades business. Because of AfPak we have been enjoying relative calm along the LoC. More of the quagmire to the west of us means greater peace for us.

  15. Anand
    July 12, 2010 at 9:25 PM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park,

    >>You say that millions and billions revere it but no one follows their religion 100%.

    But that is the scary part! Only a small percentage of the believers follow the fun edicts of the faith, such as putting women in the veil and idolaters to the sword, and yet they have such phenomenal success. A major chunk of their population lives according to the dictates of this small percentage, mired in a medieval mindset. It wants to rebel and free itself, perhaps, but the grip of the small minority is strong. Even those from among this population who voluntarily made liberal environments their home are not free from the clutches of this minority: there are conflicts with host populations, terrorism, the killing of innocents, demands for Sharia and the whole works. This small minority is the main instigator in most every significant conflict in the world today, and its victims run into thousands annually.

    But this minority’s crowning glory is that it managed to cultivate defenders who proclaim to the most rabid of Islamists out there that they will not waver from the path of asking unbelievers to get to used to the Islamists!! Only a few followers of the book accomplished this feat! Now imagine what more of them cannot accomplish? If their numbers double, for example, I’d know it from some chap arguing that we must get used to them by conceding their latest demand (such as paying jajiya tax, perhaps). At this rate, the amount of worry and concern demonstrated by people like you (about the imminent massacre of Muslims by bloggers) seems to be a good indicator of how close to the precipice we are. For Allah’s sake — and make that Mao’s sake as well — please, get more worried!

    All in all, this line that the people you want us to get used to are only a few in number is of no consolation to me. It is getting _me_ very worried and concerned instead.

  16. July 12, 2010 at 8:28 PM

    @Malavika

    “No. Your theory is flat wrong”

    Like I said – this isn’t the forum to debate this issue. Let me know if you still want to continue this…

  17. Malavika
    July 12, 2010 at 8:20 PM

    BJP again”
    “Religion is bad because god is an illogical concept.”

    No. Your theory is flat wrong and still you did not furnish any facts to butress your assertion.

    Organized religion is BAD. There is no moral equivalence between
    Varthamana Mahavira or Indic traditions and Prophetic sytems. Your dishonesty shows when you equate these two.

    You are a closed minded bigot. You make sure no amount of facts change your opinion.

  18. July 12, 2010 at 7:26 PM

    @Malavika

    What’s a Momin?

    “And your Islamic ideology has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing of Hindus in KAshmir, Pak and Bangladesh? “

    What does this mean? Are you suggesting I support all that?

    “I live in India and my interest is not to end up like Hindus in Kashmir/Pak/Bagla.”

    I don’t think you have anything to worry. We’re now a mature democracy. Are you really worried that Muslims are going to go on a rampage and kill you in India?

    “So, If all religions are equally bad why are minorities like Muslims, Parsis, Jews, and etc thriving in India and decimated in KAshmir and Pak?”

    I’ve not denied that Islam has more violent elements than most religions (though not more than Christianity I might add.) Why not point to the US and ask why there’s no Islamic or Jewish violence? The situation depends on economic levels, education, maturity, etc. Religion is a small part of it.

    And like I told you before – let’s get into the debate of “all religions are bad” elsewhere. This thread has already too many comments. But I get the feeling that unless I answer you you’re going to keep pestering me about this. So here’s my answer. Religion is bad because god is an illogical concept.

  19. Malavika
    July 12, 2010 at 6:34 PM

    BJP said:
    “But I’m currently more interested in India because I live here. I’ve also written about outrages committed in other countries and so have other bloggers. It’s not this vs that.”

    So you think Kashmir is not in India? spoken like a true Momin. And your Islamic ideology has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing of Hindus in KAshmir, Pak and Bangladesh?

    I live in India and my interest is not to end up like Hindus in Kashmir/Pak/Bangla. These momins are from the same genetic material as Hindus except the ideology. The results are clearly there to see.

    You still did not answer my Q. Here it is again

    So, If all religions are equally bad why are minorities like Muslims, Parsis, Jews, and etc thriving in India and decimated in KAshmir and Pak?

  20. Sandeep
    July 12, 2010 at 6:02 PM

    Harsha,

    Yes. I know about the Charvaka siddhanta. But what is your point exactly?

  21. July 12, 2010 at 5:37 PM

    @Anand

    I’m more concerned about what individual people say rather than what some book says. You say that millions and billions revere it but no one follows their religion 100%. So personal opinions on blogs are more important since they come straight from the people themselves.

    @Malavika
    I never said it’s ok. But I’m currently more interested in India because I live here. I’ve also written about outrages committed in other countries and so have other bloggers. It’s not this vs that.

  22. Malavika
    July 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM

    Bhagwad Jal Park said:
    “It worries me because if people come to power who think that Islam is the root of all evil, they have the capacity to cause untold suffering in the same way that Hitler thought Jews were the cause of all problems”

    Your Freudian slip is showing, you are not worried that in over 50 nations leaders thinks it is ok to kill, rape, enslave kaffirs and infidels. In these nations women are stoned to death for being victimized, and minorities are ethnically cleansed and discriminated. And you are not worried about apalling cruelty being inflicted on the hapless minorities , but worried about ‘what might happen’?

    You atheism mask drops and we can see your Tayuiyya/Kitman.

  23. Harsha
    July 12, 2010 at 9:59 AM

    I honestly have no idea what you think about atheism, but it isn’t exclusive to ‘western’, ‘cultureless’ people. It has always been there, except as a minority. Have you heard about Charvaka?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%81rv%C4%81ka#Beliefs

    This philosophy, which is both Hindu, and atheistic, existed before Christ, in 6 BC. And this just one of the many minor branches.

  24. Anand
    July 12, 2010 at 9:22 AM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park

    I asked you to sort out your confusion and make up your mind whether dangerous ideas lead to the persecution of innocents or not , and your respond with: “point me to a blog where everyone is saying that Hindus are a danger to society .. etc”. This is a free world. Let me read your rights to you. If you are not able to answer a question — and that includes the following question — you can remain silent.

    How about this:

    “When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. ”

    This is not on a mere blog. The passage occurs in a holy book revered by billions of people. Millions of copies of it are in existence. It is learned and studied in millions of schools around the world. Do you think the passage reflects a noble sentiment? If not, do you think those who target “idolaters” are in no way influenced by it?

  25. Kaffir
    July 12, 2010 at 7:45 AM

    =>
    The US has never had any great love for Islamic elements.
    =>

    What do you mean by Islamic elements? What time-period are you talking about? Just the one that you are aware of, i.e. last 5-7 years or so? Another lacuna in your knowledge of US history? And what would you interpret as “great love”?

    Would doing business with Islamic countries qualify as “great love”?
    Would giving money in aid to Islamic countries qualify as “great love”?
    Would giving citizenship to Muslim refugees from Islamic countries qualify as “great love”?

    And since when have states and countries based their affairs on “great love”? And should they? Questions for you to ponder and then write some posts on your blog. ;)

  26. July 12, 2010 at 7:28 AM

    @Radical Humanist
    The US has never had any great love for Islamic elements. Yet I would think the spectacular cock ups in Iraq and Afghanistan would teach us that just invading another country and engaging in violence doesn’t work.

    Now there are some people who are advocating invading Iran. Ridiculous…

  27. Radical Humanist
    July 12, 2010 at 5:00 AM

    From the way things are looking now across non-muslim countries. carnage appears to be a close prospect. And it will be wrought due to the fact that we did nothing about it – we got “used to Islam”. And as I stressed before the only way to engage it is by politically incorrect measures.

  28. July 12, 2010 at 1:53 AM

    @Anand
    Please point me to a blog where everyone is saying that Hindus are a danger to society and peace to substantiate your claim.

  29. Anand
    July 12, 2010 at 12:59 AM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park

    If you can believe that the opinion that Islam is the root of the problem will lead to carnage, you shoould have no difficulty accepting that the belief that kaffirs are the root of evil will lead to mass murder too. It’s not just due to ‘crazy people’ you know. Try untwisting your knickers a bit, :-)

  30. July 12, 2010 at 12:37 AM

    @OT

    “So your interest in this blog post is not the Islam Problem, but your morbid fear that the readers of this blog may in the future massacre Muslims on a large scale.”

    Not specifically readers of this blog, but yes. I’m afraid that people with the mentality of looking at a certain group and blaming them for all problems are prone to such acts.

    “Which is why your defence of Islamic intolerance, and the recommendation that we must “get used to it”, worries me.”

    I don’t really care for Islam. I care for individual people who are just born into a religion without thinking about it.

  31. Ot
    July 12, 2010 at 12:29 AM

    Hello Comrade Jal Park,

    >>It worries me because if people come to power who think that Islam is the root of all evil

    I get it. So your interest in this blog post is not the Islam Problem, but your morbid fear that the readers of this blog may in the future massacre Muslims on a large scale.

    It is interesting that you bring up Nazism though. Today the ideology that’s most vocally carrying on the antisemitic agenda of Hitler is political Islam. When Muslim terrorists attacked Chabad House in Mumbai, they sexually tortured the inmates before killing them. To travel all the way from Pakistan to perpetrate such cruelty on a minuscule Jewish minority in Mumbai (I mean, why not just put bullets in them, man? Or at least gas them, like the Nazis did?), even desiring a certain death (or “martyrdom”) for oneself in the process, requires a dehumanizing ideology. Nazism was one. Little Muslim children are taught that Jews are “pigs”. In Muslim countries, it is fairly common for Jews to be referred to as “Jewish pigs”. You have been making a good song and dance about referring to people as “groups”. That is precisely what Islam does. Islam owes nothing to unbelievers, certainly not even compassion. (Ok, I take that back. If you pay protection money, you can live as a dhimmi). Untold suffering is resulting as a consequence, as we speak, and you are oblivious to it all. You speak in mysterious tongues, surely. Innocents _will_ be harmed. Untold suffering _will_ result. Hmmm.

    I don’t think it is a good idea to get used to the killing of innocent people. I don’t think it is a good idea to get used even to the notion that it is inevitable that innocents will be targeted. People have a right to expect a world free of untold suffering. Which is why your defence of Islamic intolerance, and the recommendation that we must “get used to it”, worries me. Of course, you are full of it, the milk of human kindness, I mean. But so was Chamberlain. Do you think he was a bad guy?

    I’m only explaining that my commenting here is not motivated by any grander plan than countering your dangerous idea. But that 9th-grader question, as Anand put it, is not as crappy as he thinks. I’ll maybe think about it sometime.

  32. July 11, 2010 at 11:15 PM

    @Anand

    It worries me because if people come to power who think that Islam is the root of all evil, they have the capacity to cause untold suffering in the same way that Hitler thought Jews were the cause of all problems.

    Basically, people in power should not prefer one group of people over another and demonize one group at the cost of another.

  33. Anand
    July 11, 2010 at 10:42 PM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park

    If you believe that only political/executive action at the level of the prime minister matters and then nothing else does, then you are wasting your time trying to muster support for your get-used-to-Islam idea on this blog. But you are here, and you’re spending good amount of time on it too. Obviously, you are eager to influence the thinking of the readers of this blog. I’m intrigued why. Can you not sleep well at night until the said readers stop talking about the intolerance of Islam? Why not? What difference does it make to you?

  34. July 11, 2010 at 8:48 PM

    @Anand

    Unfortunately, for anything real to come out of this discussion, we need to agree on what should be done. That’s why I asked you what you would do if you were in power. Because you have such strong opinions on this, I want to know what you would do if you were given a free hand.

    Otherwise, you’re essentially telling me that what the government has been doing is correct and there’s no better way. If there is a better way, tell me what you would do.

  35. Anand
    July 11, 2010 at 5:59 PM

    @Bhagwad Jal Park

    I note with interest that you are very strongly attached to this “what will you do if you are President of the United States” question. The last time I deliberated on this weighty matter was in grade 9 or so, during a school essay writing competition. It is a closed chapter, I am not going to strain my grey matter on the subject again. You better ask me what would I do being just me, and my answer to that question is that I remain opposed to intolerant and exclusivist ideologies, regardless of whether they call themselves “Islam” or “Communism”. Your insistence that people should “get used to” Islam puzzles me. There is not much I can do about the pervasive corruption all around also. But anybody who suggests that I should get used to it is, in my eyes, complicit in colluding with the corrupt, if not corrupt himself.

    How about you get used to criticism of Islam instead? The said criticism is in fact growing in strength day by day. In Europe, from where we borrowed ideologies like secularism, veils are being banned. You see, rebelling against intolerance and bigotry is intrinsic to human nature. You are not going to be very successful asking people to get used to them. Instead, _you_ should get used to the opposition to them. What can you do anyway, other than getting used to it? If this is your blog, you can delete comments you dislike as soon as they are posted (though such tricks are best left to loser commie nutjobs brainwashed by their loser commie dads. ;) ) but what can you do about thousands of web pages out there you have no control over? Can you really indoctrinate people, as OT has been saying, into not speaking their mind? In fact, not getting used to free expression can hurt yourself, because it may leave you with this itch to delete comments you dislike, but then you are helpless! Think it over.

  36. Incognito
    July 11, 2010 at 2:26 PM

    >>>‘For someone who claims that labels are bad, you seem very keen to make liberal uses of them.

    Didn’t notice quotation marks ?

    >>>“Aren’t you just a little bit presumptuous here to assume that only you’ve seen the truth?

    Isn’t that presuming ?

  37. July 11, 2010 at 2:25 PM

    In any third-world country, there will always be lots of problems to solve, attitudes and behaviors to condemn. But because attention and moral outrage are scarce commodities, a prioritized list will always be required.
    With that in mind, its obvious that in India the Muslim demographic rise is a timebomb waiting to explode in a carnage mirroring 1947-48. This is priority number 1.
    There is massive, massive poverty due to Nehruvian socialism and its abhorrent contemporary carrier – the Indian National Congress. This is priority number 2.
    Due to numbers 1, and 2, and applying Nitin Pai’s excellent theory of Competitive Intolerance, the Hindus are copying the methods of Muslim and Christian censors and bullies, increasingly. But of course the media and the pseudo-secular class will only notice this late, pathetic copying, and not the originators of intolerance and violence.

    So the choice is clear, to be free and prosperous, the Jihad and Naxalism must be defeated, socialism must be defeated, and then when Hindus feel secure in their own homeland, they will undoubtedly stop copying Monotheist intolerance. If they don’t, well its not a hard problem taking care of idiotic parasites like Raj Thackeray.

  38. BJP Inverse
    July 10, 2010 at 11:56 PM

    Mr. BJP firstly hats off fr stayin so long n replyin relentlessy albeit gibberish at times… man yuo keep yapping about how your an atheist over n over again… whats the big efffing deal man…. all i can say is this
    1) all religions(ideologies) arent equal as in there are a few that foster hatred and a few..well one actually… that say give people space to have their perspective on things… no prizes for guessing which is what…..
    2) its the ideology thats wrong n needs corrections n people following them must make an effort to rectify it.. oh no wait if they do that may be they will lose a limb or two… well if you have insurance cover i guess its a green signal
    3) u said “In a way, it’s a very good thing that people die and new people come who aren’t emotionally burdened by past incidents.” have you ever,god forbid… oops forgot u were an atheist :), held in your arms a bunch of goo which moments ago was your friend or relative??? please refrain from talking about such things so casually…..

  39. cricfan
    July 10, 2010 at 10:53 PM

    @ Bhagwad Jal Park: ” …There are no “Islamic Terrorists” and “Hindu Terrorists” – there are only terrorists .. ”

    Firstly, i appreciate the points u have been trying to make. i really do; Now, a cursory glance at the reporting done by the vast “mainstream” english language media of india and their stats with regard to their coverage of religon-related violatence shows that it is most certainly not fair-and-balanced coverage, with an equally lopsided followup, (or non-followup). They do not adopt your ‘fair’ position since they know precisely which side of their naan is buttered. So will you speak out against this horrific practice by the ELM at every forum possible, including your blogs, since this principle appears to be so dear to you?

  40. cricfan
    July 10, 2010 at 10:00 PM

    couple of points to add to the comments.
    1. All religions are not the same
    2. ‘tolerance’ is vastly different from mutual respect

    Excerpts from good ol’ rajiv malhotra’s writings on this topic –
    http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009/02/06/what-is-hindu-identity/
    … Hinduism Offers Mutual Respect, Not Merely Tolerance
    There indeed are certain kinds of identities in this world which are divisive. This is because they claim exclusivity. If an identity claims exclusivity, it argues that: “For me to be valid, you cannot be valid. For me to be right, for my sacred book to be valid, anything that’s different must be invalidated. It has to be dealt with, maybe by violence, maybe by non-violence, but it has to be dealt with and it cannot be considered valid.”

    Such an identity of course creates conflict. And such an identity can at best offer tolerance of others who are different. But ‘tolerance’ is a very patronizing term. It means that “I don’t really think you are legitimate but I will put up with you.” This is what tolerance is. Luckily, Hinduism does not have this problem because Hindus do not claim exclusivity. Instead, they offer mutual respect rather than just tolerance…. “

  41. Malavika
    July 10, 2010 at 9:32 PM

    BJP said:
    “I’m an Atheist. Have you heard me use threatening language? No. So don’t use a group as a catch all phrase.”

    You are a class A jerk who defends the most intolerant and fascist ideas.

    In fact true atheists like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Ayaan Hirsi and will be apalled at your skullduggery. Try posting your crap on Sam Harris web site and see the response from other Atheists/Agnostics.

    As for me I am liberal Hindu.

  42. July 10, 2010 at 8:24 PM

    @psecular

    Attack individuals. Not groups. You said:

    “…use the threatening tone used daily by your esteemed friends in islam, xian, communist, fascist & atheist circles.”

    I’m an Atheist. Have you heard me use threatening language? No. So don’t use a group as a catch all phrase.

    Talk about people. Not groups. Otherwise you’re being dishonest.

  43. Radical Humanist
    July 10, 2010 at 5:24 PM

    Atheism as danger and a cult? What am I reading?

  44. July 10, 2010 at 4:54 PM

    @psecular

    You can’t call a person fundamentalist unless they actually start beating up people, whether it’s atheists, muslims, or hindus. What they think doesn’t matter. Otherwise you’ll start seeing everything as a threat before it happens which needs to be “nipped in the bud.”

  45. psecular
    July 10, 2010 at 3:38 PM

    @baghwad jal park,
    exactly Mr.jal park, I have borrowed everything from communist, Islamist, Nazi charters to show you how dangerous and over the top things can go when stupid people with really strong opinions take control of various aspects of the society. I am happy that you could see the point. There was no other way to make you understand the threat except use the threatening tone used daily by your esteemed friends in islam, xian, communist, fascist & atheist circles. The gist was to convey that nobody in right mind should allow members of above radical clubs to thrive. In democracy these things should be nipped in the bud else, they will eat that very democracy which allowed them to grow.

    hope you got the point. FYI Atheism has become just an another form of fundamentalism followed by a group of equally dangerous people who are pissed o with organized religion. Hinduism & other un organized religons have nothing to do with all this bull shit. Modern day atheists and followers of semitic cults should keep away from pulling it into that blood feud.

  46. Rama
    July 10, 2010 at 7:13 AM

    BJ Park, you are a jerk. Period. Or you must have landed from Mars this week. How could you be soooooooo blind to the obvious , namely Islamist Terrorisim? Religion does matter as tenets of Islam demands it’s followers to kill Kaffirs. You have failed to come out with names of Hindu terrorists and when cornered, you are trying hide under this ” terrorist have no religion” blanket.
    Anybody with little bit of brain knows that both Islam and Christianity are the curse of mankind.
    99% of terrorisim (or more?) activities are carried out by this outfit called ISLAM. Basically, Muslims need to be saved from Islam.
    You are really pissing a lot of people off by your holier than thou attitude and pig headedness. Stop being a wanker.

  47. July 10, 2010 at 6:57 AM

    @psecular
    @Incognito

    I’ll ask this question for the third time:

    What would you do if you were the prime minister with can easy majority? Give me a practical solution that would correct the ills of society as you see them with regard to Muslims, Atheists etc.

  48. July 10, 2010 at 6:54 AM

    @psecular

    You sound exactly like one of the dangerous people you’re talking about with sentences like:

    “…etc cannot be considered innocent or benign”, and

    “…and hence should be quarantined and slowly eradicated.”, and

    “…You deserve no mercy as you are not innocent”

    Do you even realize how dangerous you sound? I don’t think any commentors in this thread will endorse your feelings. You’ve gone over the top.

    @Incognito

    “is actually more influenced by the ‘secular’ ‘liberal’ gibberish that the ‘intellectless’ fashionably mouth. In short, B’P is a wannabe.”

    For someone who claims that labels are bad, you seem very keen to make liberal uses of them.

    “Sunday schools, madrassas, are places where such blinding lenses are fitted. ‘Secular’ newspapers/TV channels also fit such lenses on their unwary readers/viewers. B’ad JP apparently got one fitted by them.”

    Aren’t you just a little bit presumptuous here to assume that only you’ve seen the truth?

    @Anand

    I made almost exactly the same point in an earlier comment. The words were a lil different, that’s all!

  49. Incognito
    July 10, 2010 at 5:22 AM

    >>>“1. You see the world as an atheist, whereas others see the world as Hindus.
    2. From what I’ve seen and read, there are significant and irreconcilable differences in these two world-views, which lead to you asking questions on a blog like this.
    3. So, unless you learn to look at issues through a Hindu lens, you will keep asking such questions and you will keep wondering why others have a different perspective.

    @ Kaffir,

    You are discounting commenters like Radical Humanist and Ot who apparently incline more towards ‘atheism’ that ‘hinduism’, yet there are no “significant and irreconcilable differences” between their comments and that of commenters like Anand, psecular or yourself.

    ‘Atheism’, ‘hinduism’, ‘kaffir’, ‘muslim’… are all labels. Claiming a label or assigning a label does not mean anything.

    B’ad JP merely claims a label ‘atheist’, is actually more influenced by the ‘secular’ ‘liberal’ gibberish that the ‘intellectless’ fashionably mouth. In short, B’P is a wannabe.
    Real atheists like Pat Condell or Dawkins, or commenters mentioned above, do not parrot the lines of ‘secular intellectless’. They have, rather, more original ideas.

    To say “unless you learn to look at issues through a Hindu lens…” is really meaningless. For ‘hindu’ itself is a chimeric label, created by westerners. ‘Hindu lens’ is equally so.

    Going beyond labels is necessary. “Wolves in sheep’s clothing” is a well known phrase. Labels are mostly clothing.

    Looking without any lens is advisable in most cases, except when defective vision is diagnosed.

    Children are usually born with healthy vision. Unfortunately many parents make them wear lenses from childhood, that in many cases impairs their vision as they grow up. Sunday schools, madrassas, are places where such blinding lenses are fitted. ‘Secular’ newspapers/TV channels also fit such lenses on their unwary readers/viewers. B’ad JP apparently got one fitted by them.

    In most cases, when such lenses are abandoned, people regain their healthy eyesight gradually.

    dhanyavaad

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