Last year after stopping short of declaring that Kashmir was no longer part of India–”autonomy,” “self-determination” and all the other good things–our Prime Minister curiously stopped pursuing the line. And now Lal Chowk has happened. Expectedly, Our Leader in the Blue Turban has mouthed the usual platitudes: “hoisting the Indian flag in Lal Chowk will arouse divisive tendencies,” “people should not get worked up,” “this is a deep-rooted conspiracy hatched by the Opposition,” etc. In effect, peace at any cost. After all, it was his party that the Apostle of Peace and Non-Violence belonged to. Chauri Chaura, Khilafat Movement, Jinnah, the Partition, and Peace. Let’s not blame poor Manmohan Singh.
But let’s look at what a national flag is. A piece of cloth, paper, and canvas upon which is painted some nice colors, which makes it look attractive. And so it should make perfect sense to agree with the Congress party worthies that the truckload of BJP supporters and other nationalist-minded people are creating a fuss over nothing, really.
But the law of the land provides for a Flag Code of India that lays down elaborate guidelines on how, where, when, and who should hoist the Indian national flag. It also stipulates severe punishment for violating the code. What is interesting is that the National Flag is governed by the provisions of the Emblems and Names (Prevention of Improper Use) Act, 1950 (No.12 of 1950) and the Prevention of Insults to National Honour Act, 1971. The last one is worth repeating: Prevention of Insults to National Honour. The full text of the Code can be downloaded here. But we digress.
Let’s let the Code itself define what the Indian flag is.
The Indian National Flag represents the hopes and aspirations of the people of India. It is the symbol of our national pride. Over the last five decades, several people including members of armed forces have ungrudgingly laid down their lives to keep the tricolour flying in its full glory.
In other words, the Indian Flag is synonymous with India. It isn’t for superstitious reasons that coffins of soldiers killed in combat are draped in the Indian Flag. We live in times where even the most obvious things need to be said and said loudly: a flag is a symbol. Every nation needs its symbols. An extreme case is the USA where although the usage of the national flag goes to ridiculous extremes–bikinis and suchlike–the patriotic undertone is unmistakable.
But it takes perhaps only India, despite having such an elaborate Flag Code, to make a vulgar mockery of it. Actually correct that. It takes only an India under the dispensation that we currently have that flouts every norm of decency, kills national pride bit by bit, debauches democratic institutions, and thinks nothing of bartering the Indian national interest for the sake of remaining in power indefinitely. In the Kashmir affair de disgrace, the UPA headed by the Congress party has demonstrated yet again that it is willing to trade Indian territory if it means even appeasing separatists, an epithet for Pakistan-backed terrorists.
Let’s rewind a little and look at this photograph (courtesy the excellent blog of Vinod Sharma).
That’s the Pakistan flag at Lal Chowk, Srinagar hoisted last year when a few innocent, misguided youth harmlessly pelted a few pebbles at our policemen and military personnel. Boys will be boys.
What did the government do? Nothing. Well actually it did quite a bit but we’ll get to that in just a while. And now in the same Lal Chowk, Indians want to hoist the Indian Flag on Indian soil. What does the Indian Puppet Prime Minister do? He says:
…the Republic Day was a solemn occasion that joins all Indians in a shared celebration of nationhood. This was not the time to “score political points, embarrass state and local administrations…or to promote divisive agendas.”
A shared celebration of nationhood is meaningless if you block trains stealthily, divert people, and generally use state force against people who want to celebrate the very nationhood you’re talking about–Republic Day flag hoisting is a celebration of nationhood, isn’t it, Mr. Prime Minister? The nation would love to hear you explain how India-flag hoisting on Indian soil on a solemn occasion constitutes scoring political points, embarrassment and divisive agendas. The nation is waiting with bated breath for your 2011 Republic Day speech. Oh wait, but we know where he gets his instructions from. Never mind the speech.
So let’s return to last year when the Pakistan flag was hoisted at Lal Chowk. One arm of the government promptly deployed forces to quell the poor pebble-pelters, the real victims. The other arms quietly activated the Secular Galaxy to do the rest. The media was at the forefront. First, it claimed that “harmless” stone pelting was happening. Then it claimed that nobody was hurt in the stone pelting. Then it claimed that a “few people” were hurt. Then it claimed that the stone pelters were the victims of state high-handedness. Further it blacked out news of Pakistan-flag-unfurling at Lal Chowk. Still further, it invited an Islamic lunatic who threatened a Kashmiri Pandit representative, live on Screw-the-People type shows. The print media added more fuel by writing reams of op-eds on the same sickening “victim” theme in the same sickening vein. Court Hagiographers became overnight defendants of what were subsequently called rageboys on Twitter. And so we had a situation where the government sent the army to rein in rebellion–for what? Logically, for protecting its sovereignty? Ensuring peace on its dominion? On the other hand, we had a situation where the same government pinched its media (since known as #mediamafia, #chormedia #dalalmedia) handmaidens to heap abuse on the selfsame army.
Cut to the present.
Simply put, we as a nation have been reduced to a pathetic state where we need to take out yatras to demand “permission” to hoist our own flag on our own soil–I know I’ve said this a few times already but it bears infinite repitition. Worse, the government is hell-bent on suppressing this “demand.” As they say, it happens only in India. In other words, the state will not think twice before using physical force if somebody wants to express his/her patriotism. Of course, it has its miserable set of justifications none of which stand the scrutiny of reason, decency, morality and the rest. The media as always has already taken the cue. It now says the Indian Tricolour should be in our hearts and “not for show” that the worst kind of politics is that of nationalism, that patriotism isn’t about a political yatra, etc etc. One wonders what kept them busy when Pakistan expressed its “nationalism” in the same Lal Chowk last year. Or when Arundhati Roy continues to openly advocate sedition.
But we’re well-versed with their brand of preachy self-righteousness, the I-have-all-the-answers approach. Like bridled horses, their vision is firmly set in the singular direction of 10 Janpath. The Congress declares it’s willing to grant autonomy to Kashmir? Rageboys become victims, the army becomes evil. The BJP declares that it’ll take out a march to hoist the Indian Flag at Lal Chowk? Nationalism, patriotism are dirty politics and flag hoisting is a matter of personal choice, a lofty feeling that should be carried within our hearts and not expressed in public. You do you’re dead, you don’t you’re really dead.
Here’s the thing: the evil geniuses in the Congress have realized that Kashmir is probably a lost case, hence the “autonomy offer.” But it doesn’t really matter to them if Kashmir goes; there’s still plenty of India left to cut up. Assam is boiling, its demographics rapidly altering. Several border districts of West Bengal are Muslim-majority where atrocities against Hindus are on the rise. Kerala has become the Jihad factory of the South. Swami Lakshmananda is brutally butchered by the Conversion Mafia and the state apparatus–including Her Highness–doesn’t shed a tear. Large parts of Orissa suffer the same fate. Maoists backed by the Missionary Mafia and all kinds of separatists run riot over large swathes of Indian territory, and our Lion of a Home Minister pays lip service. And so on until a day might arrive when nationalists will need to take out a yatra to hoist the Tricolour on the Red Fort. The Secular Brigade will, as is its wont, play the same tune. If you think this is an incredible future scenario, think about how we got to the present in the first place.
And herein lies the deception and the hypocrisy. The liberal-jholawala-bleeding-heart brigade that lectures about personal choice, freedom to not stand up when the national anthem is played, freedom to not respect the National Flag, think nothing about heaping scorn on a system that provides them the freedom to say these things. I’m reminded of this legendary dialogue from A Few Good Men:
We use words like honor, code, loyalty…we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use ‘em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it.
Members of this self-righteous bleeding-heart brigade when not busy bellowing against national flag-hoisting, is busy wearing their surnames as a national treasure. The reason is obvious: a surname is not merely a name, it is a symbol of glorious ancestry, wealth, accomplishment, learning, lineage or whatever. Try belittling one of these surnames? Party-brawls ensue outright. But the national flag is…oh well, who cares as long as it doesn’t affect me personally.
Flag hoisting in India has deeper connotations. It was one of the more common and popular forms of protest against the British. In 1922, M K Gandhi was imprisoned by the British on charges of sedition (incitement to rebellion). The Congress (yes) party asked Sardar Patel to lead the 1923 Nagpur Satyagraha against a law banning the raising of the Indian flag. His commanding presence and personal example had thousands of volunteers rallying behind him in no time. In the end, he got the British government to release hundreds of prisoners and allow the hosting of the Indian flag in public.
Today, the same Congress party is doing the same thing to us that the British did back then.
Tags: BJP, BJP Ekta Yatra, Congress, Freedom, India, Indian History, Indian Media, Indian National Congress, Indian Politics, Indian Secularism, Kashmir, Lal Chowk, Liberals, Media Watch, National Emblems, National Flag, National Pride, National Symbols, Nationalism, Patriotism, Politics, Pseudosecularism, Pseudosecularism Hall of Shame, Republic Day, Secularism
“ I assume that an intelligent person like you understands the difference between causation and correlation….”
Dear Sunil:
I think the relation between the cause and the intended effect was in fact implied by your good self. Read below:
Sunil: “No it would show to them that the Indian state will not allow its constitution to be undermined by a bunch of Bullies….”
In other words the march in 1992 was stare down ‘a bunch of bullies’; Show them who was the BOSS! That was the intended effect!!
Let me repeat it for you, S-L-O-W-L-Y this time; you implied:
ACTION was = March in 1992
The expected EFFECT was = ‘A bunch of bullies’ cowed down.
That was fantasy land 1992; Now let us look at the real world 2010-2011:
ACTION= March in 1992 The actual EFFECT = ‘A bunch of bullies’ became ‘thousands of bullies’ and 100 plus kids died on the streets of Srinagar; a whole media revolution on the net by ordinary kids calling for Azaadi A first!!
But then you can put some more spin on it.
Sunil listen; you can play around with words all day if you like, it does not change anything one bit; separatist will go on claiming they are ‘occupied territory’ and we will continue to claim otherwise using the Indian jawans to back our claim.
The fact remains that the only day India can declare a victory in Kashmiris will be when a bunch of Kashmiri kids to raise a Tiranga in the Lal Chowk. That is one thing that people like MM Joshi should be working towards; lets is all political gimmickery…
Regards.
Dear Sunil,
It seems that you have decided to dig in your heels and continue to argue over a side issue that was not even my main point. Still, I tried to provide you with information from peer reviewed sources available on the net. Usually the peer reviewed articles are quoted because even if one discounts their conclusions they provide useful facts and references. It seems that you want to discount the entire papers all together.
Other information that you dispute is available in books etc. I have mentioned Mark Tully’s book. Additional resource is another book by S. P. Dange on the Punjab insurgency.
The reference to Umranangal was made with the comment to check up the newspapers of the time especially the local vernacular press and correlate his activities covering several years; you decided to dismiss it as an equivalent to a celebrity photo op.
With such an attitude I am not sure what else can convince you.
I have asked you for your references; I have yet too see one!
Here below is a dry outline of the events as they unfolded; from another source; I don’t have the time available to comment on it in detail but note the underlined parts; it closely validates all that I have been saying.
On the main topic too, I have yet to hear your solution other than a repetition of the same mantra: Kashmiris must learn to this they must be made to do that…. etc. All that stuff has been repeated by the politicians since the Kashmir problem began. You seem to suggest that one march every ten years is enough to scare the separatist into becoming Jeffersonian democrats?
Well in case you have not noticed, the Indian army has held umpteen flag marches without any effect. I am sure you have a million explanations; the proof is in the pudding; Kashmir remains on the boil.
The only thing left is to use tanks against stone throwers; maybe we should try to wipe them all out like Israel keeps trying from time to time; may be that will show them our resolve!
I don’t know…
Anyway here below is the parts from the article I mentioned.
Notice the underlined parts.
Sikhs in Punjab
Tensions between Sikhs and New Delhi heightened during the 1980s, as the government did not respond to Sikh grievances. Gandhi remained active in the political arena, and by January 1980 had regained stewardship of the nation. Sensing that she had allowed too much freedom and authority at the state level in the past, she began a process of centralizing power and thereby came in direct conflict with some states that sought greater autonomy……
…Punjab was faced with escalating confrontations and increased terrorist incidents. Akali Dal only achieved limited concessions from the government and Sikh separatists prepared for battle. In the Golden Temple enclosure 10,000 Sikhs took an oath to lay down their lives if necessary in the struggle. Renewed confrontations in October 1983 resulted in Punjab being placed under central government authority……
…The Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, then initiated Operation Blue Star which took place on 5-6 June 1984. The Golden Temple was shelled and besieged by the army to dislodge the terrorists. The fighting continued for five days. Bhindranwale was killed and there was serious damage to sacred buildings……
….The intervention had disastrous consequences for the Sikh community and the whole country. Sikh-Hindu communalism was aggravated, Sikh extremism was reinforced, and political assassinations increased……
…In 1987 the state government was dismissed and Punjab was placed under President’s Rule. Extremists spread terror throughout Punjab and the Indian government mounted a campaign of anti-terrorist measures designed to restore the situation in Punjab to normal……
In May 1988 the Punjab police and Indian paramilitary forces launched Operation Black Thunder against armed extremists who had again created a fortified stronghold within the Golden Temple. At least 40 extremists and several police officers were killed during the battle……
President’s Rule was finally brought to an end following elections in February 1992, which were won by Congress (I). However the elections were boycotted by the leading factions of Akali Dal and attracted an extremely low turnout (only about 22% of the electorate).
….Despite the continuing violence between the separatists and the security forces, the large turnout in the municipal elections in September 1992, the first in 13 years, afforded some hope that normality was returning to Punjab. The local council elections in January 1993, the first for 10 years, also attracted a large turnout……
…..Most of the militant groups in Punjab traced their origins to Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. After the storming of the Golden Temple the number of militant groups operating in Punjab grew. Some authorities claimed there were no more than 1,700 armed militants, while many journalists believed there may have been five times that number…….
The militants were organised in more than half a dozen major groups and all theoretically operated under the authority of one of the Panthic Committees which functioned as decision making bodies and issued instructions. The main militant organisations included: the Khalistan Commando Force (Paramjit Singh Panjwar faction); Khalistan Commando Force (Zaffarwal); Khalistan Commando Force (Rajasthani group); Babbar Khalsa; Khalistan Liberation Force (Budhisingwala); Bhindranwale Tiger Force of Khalistan (Sangha); Bhindranwale Tiger Force (Manochahal); All India Sikh Student Federation (Mehta Chawla); and the Sikh Student Federation (Bittu).
In addition to this there were perhaps dozens of other groups, some representing splinter factions, as well as loosely organised armed gangs.
….Attacks on civilians were claimed as acts of retaliation for government violence. Other killings appeared to represent executions of suspected collaborators or informers. Militants also kidnapped civilians for extortion, frequently murdering their victims when their demands were not met. Threats were made to the minority Hindu population in an effort to drive them out of Punjab. As a result thousands of Hindus fled the state…….
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/punjab.htm
“Who are these experts? What is the proof of their expertise? ”
Dear Sunil,
and not us bloggers. Of course you are free to cite your own otherwise it is your opinion versus mine; one amateur versus another…..
The credentials of the authors are available with the paper itself; for example the major from fort leveanworth is a Staff college officer. Staff college is similar to the science of military strategy and tactics as say the MCh degree is for a neuro-surgeon. You are as unlikely to grasp the nuiances of counter insurgency by using your ‘logic’ as you are likely to come up with a treatment for a neuroblastoma just because you understand high school biology. If it wasn’t so then the Indian army would not bother to establish advanced officers school for military strategists. That is what makes them experts.
Regards
The point in having a debate over this with you is not to cross link to academic papers”
@ Gorky
Only Sangh Parivar swear by Nationalism, and that is their primary concern. All others swear by Secularism. Nationalism for them is only subservient to their spurious version of Secularism. So, I consider Sangh Parivar as the only nationalist organization in India. Why could not you tell Dr. Khan that if Kashmir secedes from India then you would demand expulsion of all Muslims from the rest of India? Why did you leave that dirty job to Hindutvadis instead? Is not that hypocrisy? You are a doctor, you should prescribe ‘medicine’ or ‘drug’ not ‘pharmacopeial preparation’ which we lawyers prefer to call it sometimes. It is worthwhile to note here that Nehru tried to use same contention as your while negotiating Kashmir issue with his Pakistani counterpart, but Pakistan and its Indian agents like Journalist A. G. Noorani shot it down as ‘self-imposed’.
I love to take on ‘trashy liberals’ on internet, because here I can afford to be politically incorrect which hits them like ‘invective’. Apart from police Officers e. g. J. F. Rebeirro and K. P. S. Gill, some politicians and journalists too played valiant roles in containing insurgency in Punjab. they are/were the slain Chief Minister Beant Singh, youth leader Maninderjit Singh Bitta ( who has been crippled for life), Buta Singh ( as union home Minister) CPI leader Satpal Dang and journalist Tavleen Singh.
“Only Sangh Parivar swear by Nationalism, and that is their primary concern. All others swear by Secularism. Nationalism for them is only subservient to their spurious version of Secularism….”
Dear Archpagan:
As I mentioned earlier, we cannot judge people’s commitment to the nation just by the slogans they can shout; many of the so called ‘trashy liberals’ too have served the nation well, sometimes even more so than others. During the insurgency in Punjab, many ordinary leftist and Marxist workers were killed by a dozen yet they did not stop from condemning Bhindranwale as a coward and a murderer. For such people secularism is not an end in itself but a means to an end; which is building a strong nation.
You ask me why I didn’t tell Dr. Khan that all Muslims would be expelled if Kashmir goes; for that would be judging all my countrymen by the actions of a few traitors. It would be wrong for the same reason that it was wrong to judge all Sikhs due to the acts of those espousing terrorism in the name of Khalistan. On a personal note, one of the most painful slogan that I ever read was ‘Maneka beti sardaar ki; desh ke ghadaar ki’ written by someone on a wall in Delhi in the aftermath of the anti Sikh mania in 1984. It was painful because even as some people were writing those slogans, others; Sikhs; Indians to core; were putting their own life on the life fighting the nation’s battle.
You mentioned a few well known names. That is true; there were heroes and so were many others, average people, who fought and died unknown and unsung; that is the way it should be. For every famous patriot I want to believe that there are thousands more who are out there carrying the same dedication. Therefore I cannot judge all Muslims based on a single Geelani any more than I can judge all Christians based on an Arundhati Roy.
It has become a fashion in some countries to wear their patriotism on the sleeve; in the US Sarah Palin famously declared in a red state that she was representing the pro-America part of the country; as if others were anti-US. We must be careful not to fall into a similar trap; to judge people’s patriotism by their political beliefs. I used the word Hindutva wadis as an expression that is thrown at me by people from the opposite end of the political spectrum than you. For me, both sides are my countrymen and we need them all to help build a strong nation.
You may not like to believe this but I don’t give a free pass to those advocating a breakup of my country. After we had a discussion, Dr. Khan asked me to write my views from an Indian perspective on Kashmir. I wrote an essay and he was brave enough to put it up on his blog. You are welcome to take a peek at the link given below and give your comments. I would in fact be honored if you do so.
Democratic nation building is a long process and arduous process and in a democracy political differences are healthy. We must debate and disagree but must not forget that at the end of the day we must pass off our nation a little stronger to our children than when we found it. For that, I think we need people like you as well as Dr. Khan.
Regards.
http://sudhan.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/the-kashmir-conflict-and-the-republic-of-india/
@Gorki:
I believe a massive flaw in your approach is to assume that anything an “expert” says is most likely to be true that “ordinary” bloggers shouldn’t question. You are unable to explain in simple english why a certain statement does or does not make sense with facts. You cannot have self-referential statements, friend.
I don’t care if it was the legendary patriot Sam Manekshaw writing this article on kashmir counter-insurgency – that would be impressive, yes, but not convincing. Why? any reference you quote for any major argument you make should be from a first hand or independent source. “The diary of an unknown kashmiri that i based my arguments on – is a good example of that – it is largely unbiased, *first-person* account of events of 1989. The good US officer bases his entire thesis on *tons* of other references, many of which probably are second- and third-person references themselves and the domino effect continues.
Rather than medicine, i would look at math as a good role model here. There, new theorems are proved only by re-using existing and verified theorems, and not using existing so-called expert conjectures- not even if that conjecture was made by Ramanujan.
Btw, the “eminent” JNU/marxist historians who are rewriting india’s history have mastered the art of this self-referential cheating. The Bush regime used this technique to sell the iraq war. It is extremely effective, yes, but it is quite dishonest too.
I am NOT suggesting that you are doing this. I don’t think you are. But I urge you to not fall in the same trap and repeat my request – kindly show us factual accounts / data / independent sources for your statements on kashmir and punjab, and if your arguments are data-driven, it needs no “expert” crutches, and if u can do that, even a so-called expert cannot argue with that.
any reference you quote for any major argument you make should be from a first hand or independent source. “The diary of an unknown kashmiri that i based my arguments on – is a good example of that – it is largely unbiased, *first-person* account of events of 1989….”
Dear Cricfan:
Ok fine. But watch what you ask for, you might just get it.
Let us go by your argument, a first had argument is more reliable; fine. The example of an unknown Kashmiri writing in a diary is duly noted.
So far so good.
Then why must the personal account by yours truly; (i.e. my own personal experience) in Punjab
not be cited as an example?
Did you see how many times I was snubbed here by people saying my own experience\account was unreliable?
Notice any observer bias?
Just kidding.
I understand cynicism is good and all data should be verified. Unfortunately in today’s world one way we tend to establish reliability is by correlating with more than one sources; that is where the references come in handy. Another way is to go by peer reviewed data; making an assumption that peers have vetted out the sources. A third way is to go by the reputation of the institutions; your criticism (and example of JNU etc.) is noted in that regard. Over time if an institution lets crap out its reputation suffers…
Anyway, I am not discounting your post, only pointing out the difficulty in reviewing stuff. I do however believe that all said and done, experts in the field (reliable ones) can make more informed judgments than amateurs especially on highly technical topics such as counter insurgency techniques.
If expertize of the ‘military experts’ was not important then handful of foreigners would not have bested the natives over and over again in battlefield after battlefield.
Capt. Amrinder Singh recently wrote a book called ‘The last Sunset’ about the Lahore armies circa 1845-48. In it recounted an anecdote about Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Apparently the natives Sikh Sirdars held a poor opinion of the ‘Purbias’ in the British army till Holkar came into Punjab with a large army being pursued by a much smaller British force. Most Sirdars thought Holkar was a poor general; except Ranjit Singh who immediately understood the effect of superior training the British ‘experts’ had imparted to the native troops. He then stated hiring European soldiers (mainly French) to train his army. The effect was beyond phenomenal. By some accounts the Punjab army was the best in Asia by the time the Maharaja died and performed marvelously in the Anglo Sikh wars.
Regards.
@gorki , a politically charged situation like Kashmir is a perfect target for every tom, dick, and harry to come out with their books. Peer reviews are misused by a colluding group of self-promoting “experts”. So its not difficult to find correlated sources to suit a preferred political narrative. Reputation of institutions mean little to zero. In the end, your arguments have to stand on their own feet to gain credibility. that is one of the good things about the blog-sphere.
Yes, I might even take your word for events that you say occurred, but that is not exactly a scalable model is it ? If you choose to cite references, then the onus is on you to ensure you get the most reliable ones – merely stating that it is by an ‘expert’ is not sufficient. Has this US dude ever set foot in J&K and talked to the people there, surveyed civilians, pandits, past and present, talked to jawans and officers ? To me it appears like he’s most likely parked his yank butt in the US, looked up a bunch of books and come out with his conjectures. At best this ensures some objectivity, but such a long-distance effort is highly susceptible to being only of academic use, if at all. The point is that, it is unlikely that many will be truly convinced (if not impressed) by a product of such an exercise.
However, my basic premise and question remains unanswered and is quite simple and @Ava mentioned something along the same lines: The violence, ethnic cleansing and discarding of representation was done willfully by the kashmiris when there was a pre-existing peace, right to worship, powerful muslim leadership, and super-representation, and this initiation of violence and murder was due to their adoption of radical islam aka ‘jihad’. Therefore, the problem will only go away permanently when they shed radical islam. Any other solution is merely postponing the facing the question and equivalent to “wishing the problem away”. This doesn’t require any expert opinions. How do *you* respond to this ?
Secondly, the march to lal chowk may well be considered to be a political gimmick by some. That is beside the point. That a bunch of unarmed private citizens are not allowed to hoist their national flag on soverign territory is a utter disgrace to india. A few years from now, if congress activists were to stage a similar march and the ruling party were to block it, it would be equally disgraceful. This cowardly act clearly shows that the appeasement policy in Kashmir has miserably failed – mainly because the congress government refuses to address the basic question.
I would not be surprised if many agree that there is nothing more strategic than the eradication of radical/jihadist islamic thought in this world.
“I would not be surprised if many agree that there is nothing more strategic than the eradication of radical/jihadist islamic thought in this world…..”
Dear Cricfan:
No surprise at all. In fact that is the bottom line for all the strategist ‘dudes’ sitting around in the think tanks around the free world because radical Islam\political Islam\Wahabbism what ever you want to call it, threatens everything that we cherish. (If you read the whole article, it ends with a number of suggestions, among them is a bullet point which specifically mentions targeting enemy propaganda using counter information. I happen to agree.
Only please remember that the best way to do so will be to deny the enemy the ear of our impressionable youth in the valley. It is not hard to understand what needs to be done. The armed terrorists have already been neutralized by the armed forces however the political arm of the same ideology is alive and kicking; it cannot be neutralized by the army.
We have to combat the political arm politically, by presenting a forceful counter argument to any argument that the Geelanis can make. The best is already in place; to their charge that the Kashmiris are not ‘free’ our counter charge is that there is a Kashmiri CM, a Kashmiri cabinet and a Kashmiri administration in place; all elected in an open and free election. The longer this arrangement (even if somewhat inefficient) survives, the weaker the separatist politicians become. An analogy from Punjab would be the withering of the support for separatist like Simranjit Singh Mann once the mainstream politicians were elected to office in the state. (Mann and his handful of candidates have been losing their security deposits regularly in the last few elections)
As for the Jihadist ideology, we are not alone; governments from US to Western Europe to Central Asia are now in agreement that it has to be stamped out just like the Communist ideology before it. Only it is a generational battle and will take time; determination and a lot of patience. There are many versions of Islam besides the Wahabbism, many of them gentler ones. In time they will prevail.
Regards.
@gorki: More specifically, the brit’s disdain for any humanity except their own kind created the problem, and fundamentalist islamists perfected it. I agree that it can’t be fixed in one shot, and may require a sequence of steps. I’m no ‘expert’ to say what those steps should be, but whatever they are, they must be transparent means to this frank end and done from a position of strength. And it obviously cannot be a bunch of weaklings in delhi throwing money at the kashmiris to appease – this will only create contempt and embolden terrorists, but not change minds one bit.
Dear Archeo,
Many Thanks for your response.
1. You said – I think the relation between the cause and the intended effect was in fact implied by your good self – Again i would like to request you to understand that one single event like hoisting a flag does not guarantee that the bullies will be cowed down and kashmir will return to normal. I assume you are intelligent enough to understand that there are no silver bullets for these issues and that a host of measures need to be taken in conjunction with each other for the situation to be brought under control. Not allowing the constitution to be undermined is one of them. However since you belong to the “I ate banana and had a bad exam so next time I will not eat banana before the exam” school of logic you missed the entire point.
2. You said – That was fantasy land 1992; Now let us look at the real world 2010-2011:
ACTION= March in 1992 The actual EFFECT = ‘A bunch of bullies’ became ‘thousands of bullies’ and 100 plus kids died on the streets of Srinagar; a whole media revolution on the net by ordinary kids calling for Azaadi A first!! – How can you be so sure that this was due to the flag hoisting by MM Joshi. There were a hundred other variables that were operating in the valley at that time including breakdown of the law and active support by Pakistan. This is where you need to keep your banana logic aside and ponder over matters in a more nuanced matter. Also even if the Flag Hoisting by MM Joshi led to this situation would you undermine the constitution just because it offends the Kashmiris? Tomorrow if the Hoisting the Tirangaa starts offending the Shiv Sena (who start to assert that only the Bhagwa Dhwaj can be hoisted in Mumbai) would you use the same banana logic to support them?
3. You said – The fact remains that the only day India can declare a victory in Kashmiris will be when a bunch of Kashmiri kids to raise a Tiranga in the Lal Chowk. That is one thing that people like MM Joshi should be working towards; lets is all political gimmickery – The constitution guarantees the right to hoist the tricolour and that is the right that needs to be protected political Gimmickry be damned. Who decides what sort political Gimmickry is allowed and what is not. I think that NREGA is political gimmickry , does this give me the right to use violence to stop the Govt from implementing it? You with your banana logic might be willing to live in such a Fascist/soviet state where “intellectuals” like you decide what should be allowed in the name of political Gimmickry and what should not, I for one dont want the Indian republic to become such a state.
Regards,
Sunil
Hello Gorki,
Many Thanks for your response(albeit muddled).
1. You said – It seems that you have decided to dig in your heels and continue to argue over a side issue that was not even my main point. – Gorki, I don’t think Punjab was a side issue in your argument. You talked about the migration of Hindus from Punjab being greater than that from Kashmir (which you have completely failed to prove) and then drew parallels between the two both in terms of the causes and the remedies. If you have not been able to substantiate your grand theories on Punjab and Kashmir and feel compelled to accuse my questioning of your muddleheaded analysis of “digging in heels” , please be my guest. By the way I would be grateful if you could respond to the 15 or so points that I have raised before you accuse me of obstinacy. Spit and scoot is the hallmark of a propagandist and not an “intellectual” like you.
2. You said – Still, I tried to provide you with information from peer reviewed sources available on the net. Usually the peer reviewed articles are quoted because even if one discounts their conclusions they provide useful facts and references. It seems that you want to discount the entire papers all together. – I have taken in to cognizance the information and facts contained in what you have provided, what I refuse to do is your accept your assertion that their conclusions should also be accepted unflinchingly because they are “experts”.
3. You said – The reference to Umranangal was made with the comment to check up the newspapers of the time especially the local vernacular press and correlate his activities covering several years; you decided to dismiss it as an equivalent to a celebrity photo op. – I am not concerned with Umarangal. What I require from you is proof of your assertion that the Hindu Migration from Punjab was greater than the KP migration from Kashmir. What proof have you provided for that? What reference have you cited ?
3. You said – With such an attitude I am not sure what else can convince you. – Look in the mirror my friend.
4. You said – I have asked you for your references; I have yet too see one! – What reference have you asked for???
5. You said – Here below is a dry outline of the events as they unfolded; from another source – What source???
6. You said – I don’t have the time available to comment on it in detail but note the underlined parts; it closely validates all that I have been saying. – Firstly there are no underlined parts. Secondly, do you want me to believe that the since the excerpt is from “another source”, it must be true?? or is it because it closely matches your assertions that it is true?? Also in the excerpt I find it very convenient to have completely ignored the activities of Bhindranwale prior to Blue Star including the fortification of the Harmandar sahib and the weak and effete response of the local law and order machinery to the open flouting of all laws. But then since you believe that everything you find on the internet is true, this too must be true isnt it?
7. You said – On the main topic too, I have yet to hear your solution other than a repetition of the same mantra: Kashmiris must learn to this they must be made to do that…. etc. All that stuff has been repeated by the politicians since the Kashmir problem began – None of the stuff I have talked about has been spoken about by the politicians leave alone implemented. Everything has been done in a reactionary fashion to stop damage control. How many politicians have said that article 370 will be withdrawn, how many politicians have told the kashmiris that they have to live within the constitution of India without fear or favor no matter what their grievances. All we have got from the politicians is How kashmir is special and how the special rights of kashmiris will be protected and how the Govt will keep on shoveling tons of cash on them just to humor them.
8. You said – Well in case you have not noticed, the Indian army has held umpteen flag marches without any effect. I am sure you have a million explanations; the proof is in the pudding; Kashmir remains on the boil. – Yes and that has helped Kashmir regain some sense of normalcy after the dark days of early 90s. Thanks to the army Flag Marches we have had elections in kashmir, Thanks to the Army flag marches, terrorist violence in kashmir is a fraction of what it was, thanks to army flag marches tourists have started reconsidering Srinagar as a destination. Like you said the proof of the pudding is in the eating and hence by your own logic we need more flag marches. Thank You.
9. You said – The only thing left is to use tanks against stone throwers; maybe we should try to wipe them all out like Israel keeps trying from time to time; may be that will show them our resolve! – Bad Idea.
10. You said – You are as unlikely to grasp the nuiances of counter insurgency by using your ‘logic’ as you are likely to come up with a treatment for a neuroblastoma just because you understand high school biology. – No my friend, biology is a science that has established but complicated cause and effect that can only be observed and inferred from in a certain environment or lab to which ordinary people have no access. Therefore expertise in these sciences comes by way of special observations and information available only to select group of experts. This is not the case with geo politics. The observations are available to everyone to study and infer from. Also there does not exist clear causation in these matters as it does in science. Therefore to say that just because i consider a Doctor’s opinion sacrosanct I should hold a policy wonk in the same veneration is intellectually lazy to say the best and asinine to say the worst.
11. You said – If it wasn’t so then the Indian army would not bother to establish advanced officers school for military strategists. That is what makes them experts. – My friend if you study these experts established by the Indian army you will realize that what they have said about Kashmir and Punjab is completely contrary to your assertions and half baked stories. Please read what KPS Gill (who by your definition is an expert) says about Punjab and Kashmir. Please read what LT General SK Sinha (who by your definition is an expert ) has to say about kashmir. Before you start postulating on the importance of listening to experts please heed your advice and read these experts, I am sure you will the experience very enlightening.
Once you have read these experts, you will realize why I dont cross link to “expert” papers because for every “expert” who endorses your view, you can find ten who don’t and the argument reduces to a “my daddy says so and so and he must be right because my daddy strongest” level of Churlishness (which is the line of logic you are very good at by the way).
Regards,
Yours Expertly
Sunil
@Sunil
I think that people who live in places like Jammu and Kashmir realize that India is already a banana republic. Muslims multiply quickly and soon when their numbers increase and get more aggressive (as it always happens in places where they are in the majority, no one else is allowed to flourish) then stupid Hindus will blink and wonder what happened? That is supposing they survive an imminent war with China (sure to happen as China tries to deflect from social tensions and as India’s militar is thoroughly outdated) in the next few years without losing even more terrority…
Dear Sunil:
I just saw your comments and went through them quickly and will make some brief comments. (I will ignore the insults (muddled head etc.) and the narcissistic self references (yours expertly etc.)
So just a brief restatement of what I am saying (and some questions)
1. The number of Hindus leaving Punjab is not available on the net but can be computed if one takes the time to painstakingly review raw data from vernacular press reports of that time. Umranangal comes to mind since he was in the news a lot over a period of time trying to work with the migrants. The fact that the net does not carry the data does not mean it did not happen; however it is a minor point (as how many people died in Delhi riots versus Ayodhya riots does not make the pain of any one less than the other)
2. The reference to the article I quoted is a link at the bottom; the underlying did not show when I uploaded it. Read the parts pasted.
3. What you say is ‘conveniently ignored’ is not ignored; only it was a small part of the larger picture; Bhindranwale was the militant arm with a few hundred men; the Akali rebellion involved lacs; Bhindranwale did not cause the Akali rebellion, it was the other way round. (If you dispute this, show me the references; your opinion being only yours)
4. All that your are saying ‘scrap article 370; Kashmiris have to live within the constitution etc. have been said before by many BJP politicians; Jagmohan ruled Kashmir with an iron fist during his tenor; his statements and actions can be looked up)
My questions to you are as follows:
You have mentioned that the onus to become better Indians is on the Kashmiris; since they have not done so since 1989 (proof being that even though there are less terrorists but more civilians are revolting) what should be done with them?
a) More of the same?
b) Re send a Jagmohan like Governor?
c) What if they still don’t change?
d) Throw them into Pakistan?
e) A final solution for them all?
OR accept the status quo till the time they change (i.e a low grade war in Kashmir with only the might of the Indian army holding them down while they imbibe the prescription you suggest?)
Since you feel the central governments so far though elected (congress\BJP\other coalitions since 1989) have had a weak response and have not listened to real men like yourself, what should real men do if the elections continue to re-elect politicians who seem to be constrained by the larger geo political situation; should India do away with a democracy; if not who ‘should do’ all that you suggest?
Specific answers only please, if you can.
And another thing; go easy on the insults etc. if you can
)
(it may be satisfying to call your opponent an idiot but IMHO it seems more like an attempt to make up for a lack of relevant argument.
I find it childish to respond in kind
Regards.
Gorki,
I don’t see where Sunil insulted you. Calling someone’s argument muddle-headed or muddled is not the same as calling the person muddle-headed. If you can’t distinguish between the two and conflate them, seems like you’re the one being childish/immature. (Note: I didn’t say “You are immature.”)
Anyway, carry on. Interesting debate.
Dear Sunil,
Feel free to disregard my above post (which I wrote rather hastily while distracted by other things). Now I have a bit more time so let me elaborate. Since we are discussing two issues and it gets confusing let me split them up for clarity.
I want start by admitting that I find the current dialogue rather unsatisfying because it seems to defeat my entire purpose, which for me is to understand the various viewpoints (and the proposed solutions) on Kashmir, from both the left and the right. In addition I am trying to share my own thoughts based on my own experiences. Thus what I am interested in is a two way dialogue but so fat it has been a case of two people talking past each other. It seems that so far we can’t even agree on the ground rules. I want to push the reset button and start again if we can.
First of all I am a bit unclear on the ground rules.
1. You seem to be asking me for some kind of proof for all the things you differ from me including the chronology of the events. To this I have tried to respond by giving my personal observations and private conversations; activities of a local leader; and written papers dealing with the period in question. It appears that none of these are found to be satisfactory.
Am I misunderstanding the question then? How do you want me to provide the supporting evidence?
2. Second, regarding what you wrote, I have asked you some references to back it up; do you find it an insult? If so then that is not the intention of the question; only a civil question as one would ask a colleague during a technical discussion.
So now let us take just the Punjab, I will restate what I have tried to convey on that issue. Let me know what you disagree with and what kind of a proof I could give:
1. There were three parties from the Sikh side: a) Political leadership b) Militants c) the Sikh people.
2. Punjab problem was a political issue; precipitated by an illegitimate act of the Center (dismissal of the Akali Govt.) militancy was a by product. The Akalis had played the Sikh card from time to time (usually when out of power) but had never asked for a Khalistan. The closest they came to making a separatist demand before till 1983-84 was when they had passed the Anandpur Sahib Resolution (which they promptly forgot once in power). Most people in Punjab had not heard of or cared about Khalistan before 1984.
3. The movement was started by the Akalis in 1980 as a Dharmyudh which they declared in the name of the people of Punjab. It escalated slowly through various phases; Dharamyudh; the threat to the Asian games; the Chakka rokko day, the jail bharo part of the andholan, the burning of the constitution and finally the threat to stop food grain from leaving Punjab in may 1984.
4. All of the above were Akali programs headed by the leadership made up of Talwandi, Tohra, Badal, Longowal, Umranangal, Barnala, etc all of whom were professional politicians. Bhindranwale was no part of any of this till the very end. (His relations were always uneasy with these; by 1984 he was not on talking terms with some including Longowal and was openly issuing death threats to others (Umranangal).
5. The second part of the struggle were the ‘militants’ represented by Bhindranwale before 1984 and the Panthic committee after 1984.
6. Bhindranwale was a small town preacher with no understanding of political theory or of national\international issues who headed the Damdami Taksal which had nothing to do with politics till Jail Singh pulled him up for brief election campaigning in the 1980 election (there have always been and still are at least a dozen such ‘Sants’ and ‘deras’ in competition with each other in Punjab). Even after his brief exposure he showed no interest in politics. His dera had a bloody clash with the Nirankaris in 1978 on a minor religious issue and led to deaths. Bhindranwale issued a death threat (carried out by his loyalist) against the Nirankari leader as a personal vendetta. (As is the case in such clashes, it was all the while done in the name of ‘Sikhi’) Only a few Sikhs had heard of him till then and even less cared. (The Nirankaris had a huge following of their own Sikh sect)
7. Lala J. Narain was a witness in the murder trial in which Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was named a defendant and told the truth earning JS’s wrath. (It was still a personal issue). JS issued a threat again and had the Lala killed. (Still nothing to do with the Akali struggle which was separate so far, on entirely different issues)
8. By now (1982-83) Punjab was on the boil; close to 35000 people had court arrested in the name of the Akali Dharamyudh in the name of the ‘Sikhs’. Bhindranwale now too started making noises in the name of the ‘Sikhs’. While the Akalis talked political stuff; (river waters, justice for Punjab; ASR) Bhindranwale had a laundry list of ‘police atrocities’ on the ‘Sikhs’ and calling for elimination of individual police officers. A few were killed; the most prominent was DIG Atwal; himself a devout Sikh.
9. Up to this point and later, while the Akali campaign started winning sympathy with the ordinary Sikhs to their cause (especially after the manhandling of ordinary Sikhs; even some army and police officers travelling in Haryana during the Asiad) most Sikhs were suspicious of Bhindranwale and many were openly opposed and Sikh politicians opposing him remained popular enough to make public speeches against him. The Law and order was going from bad to worse and while it could have been handled more forcefully; especially after the murder of DIG Atwal; the peaceful ‘Akali Morcha’ was by now a genuine anti-center movement among the Sikh masses.
10. Sensing the anti-center mood of the masses (and fearing arrest) Bhindranwale moved into the Golden temple, both for security from arrest and to be identified with the Sikh struggle (the source of Akali power, the SGPC has headquarters there) About this time; the last year or so before OBS, JS wrapped himself in the Sikh colors and proposed to be their champion. Incidentally this was when his break came with the Akalis. Only Tohra was on good terms with him; Umranangal called for his expulsion from the GT (in retaliation JS sent his men to finish him at his home).
11. Ironically it was the operation Blue Star; carried out by another Brar (Bhindranwale was a Brar Jat) that freed the moderate Akalis from Bhindranwale’s threats but it was the OBS which gave the Sikh movement a decisively separatist turn. Many moderates became radicalized and die hard nationalists like Khushwant Singh and Amrinder Singh became vocal supporters of the Sikh cause against the Govt. Before OBS the number of armed militants was perhaps 200-300, it became thousands afterwards. Many more people were killed per week after OBS than before. This number (both the militants and their victims grew) even bigger after the Delhi riots and continue to grow till the 1992 elections in Punjab.
12. Coming back to the third of the three groups (politicians, militants and the people) the Sikh people were only luke warm to the Akalis before 1980, they felt the Akalis were wronged in 1980; they became pro Akali till 1984 (Jail Bharo\Rasta Rokko etc) They felt victimized in the Asiad fiasco and decidedly turned sympathetic to the militants in 1984 and many ordinary, apolitical Sikh young men actually became militants after November 1984.
13. The tide turned back in 1992 onwards when the armed suppression was supplemented by political steps; elections, promise of rehabilitation of surrendered militants and the chance for the Akali moderates to take part in the political process (municipality and other elections which they swept)
In this entire Saga, the cantankerous Akalis demonstrated that while they had a good handle on the Sikh peasantry they were quiet satisfied with enjoying political power won through legitimate means; elections (when they lost fairly in the last elections they let the Congress finish a full term).
The very same people who had signed the ASR, had called for a Dharamyudh, had burnt the constitution have quietly let the ASR die a quiet death; (Though none of their major demands were ever met by the federal Government!!
And in all of this nowhere did the issues of Sikhi versus neo-Sikhi etc came into play.
Now dear friend, if you dispute any of the above please tell me what and why. (I would prefer to see any published texts\references etc.) We can come to Kashmir later….
Regards.
Dear Kaffir:
Perhaps then i am demonstrating an observer bias
Thanks for the interest, and feel free to comment; as I said, I am here trying to learn as much as I can regarding different viewpoints.
Regards.
Dear Gorki,
I do not have the extensive knowledge of the Punjab issue to discuss it with some confidence, but I do think that if Indians cannot exercise their right enshrined in the Constitution (to hoist an Indian flag anywhere in India) and such attempts are labeled as stunts, then there’s little use to have those rights in the first place. This is good enough for me, and I’ll let you and Sunil continue your deeper discussion.
Best.
Dear Gorki,
Many Thanks for responding. Allow me to answer your questions one by one.
ON THE MIGRATION OF HINDUS FROM PUNJAB
1. You said – The fact that the net does not carry the data does not mean it did not happen – You made an assertion that the migration of Hindus from Punjab was far greater than the cleansing of the KPs from Kashmir. I asked you for data. You failed to produce it. Now you say that just because there is no data, does not mean it did not happen. If you have not seen data how do you know? Have you gone and counted how many Hindus left? I assume you understand that in a debate if you throw a number, the onus is on you to prove it. I cannot call you a pedophile and then say that just because I don’t have evidence, it doesn’t mean its not true. Please ponder over this before you start on Umranangal again.
2. You said – however it is a minor point (as how many people died in Delhi riots versus Ayodhya riots does not make the pain of any one less than the other) – The scale of the tragedy might be minor for you, it is not for me. The pain of 400,000 KPs cleansed from the valley cannot be compared to the pain of a handful of people whom Shabana Azmi met. I would be grateful if you could refrain from trivializing the KP tragedy by such shallow comparisons.
Regards
Sunil
Dear Gorki,
ON MILITANCY IN PUNJAB
1. You said – There were three parties from the Sikh side: a) Political leadership b) Militants c) the Sikh people. – Agreed
Let me now repeat some of the things you have said –
1. The second part of the struggle were the ‘militants’ represented by Bhindranwale before 1984 and the Panthic committee after 1984.
2. His dera had a bloody clash with the Nirankaris in 1978 on a minor religious issue and led to deaths. Bhindranwale issued a death threat (carried out by his loyalist) against the Nirankari leader as a personal vendetta. (As is the case in such clashes, it was all the while done in the name of ‘Sikhi’) Only a few Sikhs had heard of him till then and even less cared. (The Nirankaris had a huge following of their own Sikh sect)
3. Lala J. Narain was a witness in the murder trial in which Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was named a defendant and told the truth earning JS’s wrath. (It was still a personal issue). JS issued a threat again and had the Lala killed. (Still nothing to do with the Akali struggle which was separate so far, on entirely different issues)
4. Bhindranwale now too started making noises in the name of the ‘Sikhs’. While the Akalis talked political stuff; (river waters, justice for Punjab; ASR) Bhindranwale had a laundry list of ‘police atrocities’ on the ‘Sikhs’ and calling for elimination of individual police officers. A few were killed; the most prominent was DIG Atwal; himself a devout Sikh.
5. The Law and order was going from bad to worse and while it could have been handled more forcefully; especially after the murder of DIG Atwal; the peaceful ‘Akali Morcha’ was by now a genuine anti-center movement among the Sikh masses.
6. Sensing the anti-center mood of the masses (and fearing arrest) Bhindranwale moved into the Golden temple, both for security from arrest and to be identified with the Sikh struggle (the source of Akali power, the SGPC has headquarters there) About this time; the last year or so before OBS, JS wrapped himself in the Sikh colors and proposed to be their champion. Incidentally this was when his break came with the Akalis. Only Tohra was on good terms with him; Umranangal called for his expulsion from the GT (in retaliation JS sent his men to finish him at his home).
7. Ironically it was the operation Blue Star; carried out by another Brar (Bhindranwale was a Brar Jat) that freed the moderate Akalis from Bhindranwale’s threats but it was the OBS which gave the Sikh movement a decisively separatist turn.
8. Before OBS the number of armed militants was perhaps 200-300, it became thousands afterwards. Many more people were killed per week after OBS than before. This number (both the militants and their victims grew) even bigger after the Delhi riots and continue to grow till the 1992 elections in Punjab.
9. They felt victimized in the Asiad fiasco and decidedly turned sympathetic to the militants in 1984 and many ordinary, apolitical Sikh young men actually became militants after November 1984.
Now if I were to summarize this narrative
1. The militancy in Punjab gained maximum strength after Operation Blue Star
2. Operation Blue Star happened because Bhindranwale went and fortified himself in the Harmadar Sahab Complex.
3,. Before Bhindranwale did this, he had a free run in Punjab killing anyone who opposed him and even murdering a leading public figure like Lala Jagat Narain and DIG Atwal
4. By your admission the law completely broke down in the face of this assault by Bhindranwale which only emboldened him.
If I were to take your narrative at face value, it would be amply clear that had the law and order machinery been strong and not weak, it would have eliminated the threat from Bhindranwale (by elimination I don’t mean Killed) much before he could run around Punjab with a truck full of AK47 toting youths. If that had happened, there would have been no fortification of the Harmandar Sahab, consequently no Operation Blue Star, consequently no militancy in those dark years between 84 and 92. This is exactly what I have been saying since the very beginning. The reason for the militancy was the weakness of the state in dealing with Bhindranwale and his goons. I fully supported the peaceful movement of the Akalis against the Bloody Congress (except for the burning of the constitution and stopping wheat supplies from Punjab). However what I cannot and no sane person can support is undermining the constitution and using violence for perceived or even legitimate grievances. That leads to the kind of terrorism we have seen in Punjab and that is exactly the mistake we have made WRT to flag hoisting at Lal Chowk.
My comments on some other points you raised.
1.You said – (especially after the manhandling of ordinary Sikhs; even some army and police officers travelling in Haryana during the Asiad) – This was most shameful and goes to show how a breakdown of the law only goes to feed the circle of violence.
2. You said – elections, promise of rehabilitation of surrendered militants and the chance for the Akali moderates to take part in the political process (municipality and other elections which they swept) – I find this point quite interesting. We have had similar measures in kashmir as well. Why do you think this does not seem to be working there. The answer perhaps lies in the Islamic nature of the militancy and the fact that the state has not dealt with the separatists with the same firmness as it did in Punjab.
3. You said – And in all of this nowhere did the issues of Sikhi versus neo-Sikhi etc came into play. – You are entitled to your opinion, but to me it is amply clear that separatism cannot exist in an identity vacuum. It needs the support of an identity to stand up. In case of Punjab it was the identity of neo sikhi wallahs (the tat khalsa type, fed on the ideology of Bhai kahan Singh Nabha’s “Hum Hindu nahin hain” and the myth of Khalsa being superior to everything else in the world). In case of kashmir, it is Islam and nizam e mustafa. That makes the kashmir problem more intractable than Punjab because unlike Punjab, the quest for a separate homeland for their sunni identity is actually backed by their religion.
In most of the above comment, I have used your facts and your data. If you want me provide you with a specific reference please ask me for it.
Regards
Sunil
Hello Gorki,
If I may disregard your request to ignore your earlier post, please find my response below.
1. You said – All that your are saying ‘scrap article 370; Kashmiris have to live within the constitution etc. have been said before by many BJP politicians – Yes they have been talked about but nothing has been done about them. Like I said earlier, in politics actions speak louder than words.
2. You said – Since you feel the central governments so far though elected (congress\BJP\other coalitions since 1989) have had a weak response and have not listened to real men like yourself, what should real men do – This is totally unwarranted, hence no response.
3. You said – a) More of the same? – NO
4. You said – b) Re send a Jagmohan like Governor? – NO
5. You said – c) What if they still don’t change? – Since the answer of the above questions is NO, this question is not applicable.
6. You said – d) Throw them into Pakistan? – NO
7. You said – e) A final solution for them all? – NO
8. You said – OR accept the status quo till the time they change (i.e a low grade war in Kashmir with only the might of the Indian army holding them down while they imbibe the prescription you suggest?) – NO. The wound will continue to fester until it becomes unmanageable and has to be cut off.
My solution for the J&K Problem
1. Abrogate article 370 and extend the constitutional rights of all Indians to Kashmir
2. Allow peaceful protests and demonstrations
3. Protect the constitutional rights of every citizen in the state irrespective of religion/state of origin etc
4. Use non lethal force against violent but unarmed protests
5. Use lethal force against armed separatists.
Regards,
Sunil.
Dear Sunil,
I saw all three of your posts this morning. You repeated my post and then wrote:
“I fully supported the peaceful movement of the Akalis against the Bloody Congress (except for the burning of the constitution and stopping wheat supplies from Punjab)…”
Thus you admit that the broad chronology of the events was indeed as I had mentioned. (Whew; thanks.
)
Also you admit then that the Akalis had a valid grievance at their dismissal to launch a ‘Dharamyudh.’ If so then it is clear that the movement started purely from a political grievance. (Where does the Sikhi vs. neo-Sikhi come in? )
In addition to this you said that you ‘fully supported’ the Akali movement. I find that interesting because I assume that the ‘fully’ also include the support for the ASR which was a big part of their program.
Also you do admit then that the ongoing political unrest provided Bhindranwale with a perfect cover to merge his private petty but violent agenda with the larger political struggle in the garb of protecting ‘Sikhism’.
Also you admit that the political unrest and its various phases (Rasta Rokko\Chakka Jam; Rail Rokko, Jail Bharro; burning the constitution; Food Rokko etc. covering the entire State) were major anti Government programs going on at that time. You also agree then that they were showing no signs of weakening; on the contrary were escalating (to the point it was making supporters like you uneasy with things like the burning of the constitution and the food rokko plan)
So now in such a charged political atmosphere (that is going from bad to worse over the years) do you expect the law and order machinery to perform? Imagine for a moment that you are the DC or an SSP in a district where do you put your resources? Protect the public buses? Protect the railway stations from being looted? Arrest a petty preacher for seditious speech? Solve the daily petty crimes? What?
The point is that in hindsight what you say makes sense yet in the real world any unrest over time stretches the law and order machinery; an 18 day ‘peaceful’ protest in Cairo was enough for the looters to make away with valuables from the local museum. Imagine what it would be in 180 days? 360 days?
Even in hindsight treating any such problem as a ‘law and order problem’ only is difficult. Bhindranwale for all his illiteracy etc. was a very charismatic man and a master manipulator of public sentiments yet in a place like India\Punjab it does not take much to convert a simple ‘law and order problem’ to a major timebomb when it comes to the issue of ‘deras’ and the ‘Sants’.
As evidence I would like to cite the recent trouble over the Sirsa dera Ram Rahim controversy which was led by some faceless people (not even close to Bhindranwale’s little finger in terms of demagoguery) and yet caused several days of rioting; at least one death and tens of people injured. Yet it had to be handled delicately; and all the while the constitutional rights of the Sant Gurmeet Singh were trod upon (if one believes in the adage that one is innocent unless proven guilty) but it was a question of keeping peace versus strictly upholding the law in letter.
What would I have done if I was the administrator in charge? I don’t know; my idealistic impulse (like yours) says that I should have held the dealt with the rioters with a firm hand, pragmatism tells me it would have led to a more inflamed situation; rioting, more deaths etc.
Listen dear friend, I am not against what you are saying in principle; let the constitutional rights of all be respected come what may. Indeed that is the goal for our Republic and that is what I am trying to work towards in my own small way. Yet one can’t be oblivious of the ground realities; ours is still a weak democracy; we have a democratic constitution but sometimes very unlawful and undemocratic society. To make it what it should be; all of us need to first understand our limitations and then work on eliminating them. For that political farsightedness comes first.
I don’t claim I have all the answers yet neither do I think any one else has. For example you said:
My solution for the J&K Problem
1. Abrogate article 370 and extend the constitutional rights of all Indians to Kashmir 2. Allow peaceful protests and demonstrations 3. Protect the constitutional rights of every citizen in the state irrespective of religion/state of origin etc 4. Use non lethal force against violent but unarmed protests
5. Use lethal force against armed separatists.
Yet at another place in answer to my suggestion of political steps you also said:
“….I find this point quite interesting. We have had similar measures in kashmir as well. Why do you think this does not seem to be working there…”
Admitting, that so far, things have not worked very well in Kashmir although all your suggestions (barring article 370) too have also been attempted there.
Regarding the issue of article 370. Every Indian knows that it has to go; yet even the BJP government could not muster the political will to make it happen in five years of their rule. You know why; Vajpayee and Advani are neither stupid nor unpatriotic; but they understand that in a democracy the law can only be made and implemented by the ‘consent of the ruled’. It is that elusive consent that seems to be missing in Kashmir so far and once that comes; the article will go; as surely it must.
So Sunil my friend, it was good interacting with you and I understand your position better now; hope you do mine. I have already spent a lot of time on this issue and don’t have much more to add. I am sure you will respond. I will read it with interest; but will probably not have more time to respond.
I would like to take leave but on a cheerful. Therefore I will share a joke that I read recently and enjoyed immensely. Here goes:
An unconfirmed report from the UN stated the following exchange occurred on the UN general assembly floor:
“A representative from India began : ‘Before beginning my speech I want to tell you something about Rishi Kashyap of Kashmir, after whom Kashmir is named. When he struck a rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ‘What a good opportunity to have a bath.’
He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water.
When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.. A Pakistani had stolen them.’
The Pakistani representative jumped up furiously and shouted, ‘What are you talking about? The Pakistanis weren’t there then.’
The Indian representative smiled and said, ‘And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech….”
Jai Hind.
Regarding the issue of article 370. Every Indian knows that it has to go; yet even the BJP government could not muster the political will to make it happen in five years of their rulegorki
how do u know that all indians want abrogation of art 370.the reverse is true. what r the telengana/gorkhaland/bundelkhand/vidharbha//northeatern states/tribal acts
the kasmiri pandits have all rights to buy the entire kashmir. why cant the nationalist indians collect money and buy evrything in the name of kashmiri pandits and send them back as the owners of vast amounts of lands and properties.absence of art 370 has not prevented the demands of telengana and co and in contrast application of similar articles for those areas would have avoided these lingering protests.
there is no art 370 in tamilnadu.can any northindian come and organise the supremacy of hindi and the need to make hindi the only national language in tamilnadu.its funny to see people giving childish stupid solutuions
Dear Gorki,
Many Thanks for your response. My comments below.
1. You said – Also you admit then that the Akalis had a valid grievance at their dismissal to launch a ‘Dharamyudh. – I said that they had a legitimate grievance and that I fully support the peaceful means they used to address that. I never said I supported the Dharamyudhh. Please don’t ascribe to me things that I have not said.
2. You said – If so then it is clear that the movement started purely from a political grievance. – The Akalis were motivated by political grievance, but by your own admission Bhindranwale had no truck with them and also by your own admission it was the killing of Bhindranwale in Blue Star that led to the militancy during 1984 -1992. Therefore by your own admission, there could not have been a link between the legitimate Akali political grievance and the militancy.
3. You said – In addition to this you said that you ‘fully supported’ the Akali movement. I find that interesting because I assume that the ‘fully’ also include the support for the ASR which was a big part of their program. – NO. I fully support their right to peacefully protest the dismissal of their government and nothing else.
4. You said – Also you do admit then that the ongoing political unrest provided Bhindranwale with a perfect cover to merge his private petty but violent agenda with the larger political struggle in the garb of protecting ‘Sikhism’. – YES. And that is why if the state had been strong on Bhindranwale, this issue of saving sikkhi from the baman and the baniyas would not have arisen in the first place.
5. You said – Also you admit that the political unrest and its various phases (Rasta Rokko\Chakka Jam; Rail Rokko, Jail Bharro; burning the constitution; Food Rokko etc. covering the entire State) were major anti Government programs going on at that time – YES.
6. You said – So now in such a charged political atmosphere (that is going from bad to worse over the years) do you expect the law and order machinery to perform? – WHY NOT?. The job of the law and order machinery is to perform under all circumstances. Just because there is political unrest does not mean the Law and order machinery has and excuse to not perform. By your logic it was OK for the Delhi Police to have watched Thousands of Sikhs being burnt in Delhi, just because their was political unrest. There you have just absolved the Delhi Police of criminal negligence. Thank You.
7. You said – Imagine for a moment that you are the DC or an SSP in a district where do you put your resources? Protect the public buses? Protect the railway stations from being looted? Arrest a petty preacher for seditious speech? Solve the daily petty crimes? What? – ALL OF THE ABOVE.
8. You said -an 18 day ‘peaceful’ protest in Cairo was enough for the looters to make away with valuables from the local museum. Imagine what it would be in 180 days? 360 days? – Invalid comparison. We are not Egypt and I don’t know about you, but I don’t aspire to be like them either.
9. You said – Bhindranwale for all his illiteracy etc. was a very charismatic man and a master manipulator of public sentiments yet in a place like India\Punjab it does not take much to convert a simple ‘law and order problem’ to a major timebomb when it comes to the issue of ‘deras’ and the ‘Sants’. – That does not mean that every time a charismatic preacher starts to undermine the law, the state has an excuse to absolve itself of all its law and order responsibilities. Would you be so understanding if a charismatic Gujarati Hindu “Bhindranwale” overwhelms the state and starts targeting the Muslims????
10. You said – As evidence I would like to cite the recent trouble over the Sirsa dera Ram Rahim controversy which was led by some faceless people (not even close to Bhindranwale’s little finger in terms of demagoguery) and yet caused several days of rioting; at least one death and tens of people injured. Yet it had to be handled delicately; and all the while the constitutional rights of the Sant Gurmeet Singh were trod upon (if one believes in the adage that one is innocent unless proven guilty) but it was a question of keeping peace versus strictly upholding the law in letter.
What would I have done if I was the administrator in charge? I don’t know; my idealistic impulse (like yours) says that I should have held the dealt with the rioters with a firm hand, pragmatism tells me it would have led to a more inflamed situation; rioting, more deaths etc. – The dera sacha sauda issue has more layers to it like the support of the dera for the Congress and the consequent thirst of the Akalis for revenge. However without going in to them, I dont quite understand your logic that just because we have screwed up the law in every such situation since independence, screwing up the law and the constitution should become an acceptable practice for us in the name of “practical considerations” and “religious sentiments” – Also I assume you will prescribe the same practical/soft touch interpretation of the law when Hindu Fundamentalists target Hussain or go on a rampage against perceived slights to their religion. Would you??
11. You said – Yet one can’t be oblivious of the ground realities; ours is still a weak democracy; we have a democratic constitution but sometimes very unlawful and undemocratic society. To make it what it should be; all of us need to first understand our limitations and then work on eliminating them. For that political farsightedness comes first. – So we should make our constitution subservient to every bully in the country and hope that after being bullied by religious/caste/community leaders of every denomination, we will automatically become strong some day. If wishes were horses you would be a millionaire many times over my friend. The republic does not become strong by compromising on its constitution and hoping that some day when it is strong, it will repair the damage. The republic becomes strong by taking a principled stand against any dilution in its values and by having the ability to pay any price to defend it. Strength and respect are earned by hard work and sacrifice an not by hoping that our limitations will some day vanish automatically. I don’t quite understand how you according to you a weak democracy can become stronger by engaging in progressively craven actions??
12. You said – Admitting, that so far, things have not worked very well in Kashmir although all your suggestions (barring article 370) too have also been attempted there. – INCORRECT. Points 1 and 3 of my suggestion have NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED. And they happen to be the most critical ones. Again please don’t ascribe to me what I have not said.
13. You said – but they understand that in a democracy the law can only be made and implemented by the ‘consent of the ruled’. It is that elusive consent that seems to be missing in Kashmir so far and once that comes; the article will go; as surely it must. – So by your logic if in a constituency the “ruled” (by the way, in democracy people are not ruled over, they are governed by their representative. Please bear this important distinction in mind) want to have a sharia law that allows adulterers to be stoned to death, the state has no right to overrule it and impose the constitution on them?? If the Gujarat throw out all muslims from the state and declare Gujarat to be a Hindu rashtra, will you apply your principle of “consent of the ruled”. There was overwhelming “consent” from the ruled for the demolition of the janamsthan masjid in Ayodhya, why did you not ask the Government to step aside and allow the demolition?? The fact that people elect governments on the basis of the constitution means that their primary consent is towards the implementation of the constitution and all their other desires are subservient to it. That is how a republic works but if you want to turn India in to a banana republic with “consent of the ruled” at every end, be my guest
14. It was nice talking to you as well Gorki. I think you have most of the facts right, but your analytical framework seems to be in need of some overhaul. I hope this conversation will help you with that.
Regards
Sunil
Dear Ganapathy,
Please go back to the rear body orifice you have crawled out of. Thanks.
Regards
Sunil.
Dear Sunil:
Pardon me for writing again but I am writing because I had earlier told you I understood you position and had written my last post. Yet your last note raised some more questions in my mind and I am left wondering whether you understood what I meant but more importantly if I understood what your positions were.
So let me start with the minor clarifications first:
1. You said:
“I fully supported the peaceful movement of the Akalis against the Bloody Congress (except for the burning of the constitution and stopping wheat supplies from Punjab)..”
AND
“I never said I supported the Dharamyudhh. Please don’t ascribe to me things that I have not said….”
Wasn’t the ‘Akali peaceful’ movement itself called the ‘Dharamyudh’ from the day one when they started sending out peaceful ‘jathas’ for courting arrest? (AFAIK they never directly protested their dismissal; only indirectly using the above methods and grievances). Specifically what part of the Akali movement did you support and what part did you not support?
Am I misunderstanding you?
2. Then you wrote:
1. “Yes they have been talked about but nothing has been done (about article 370) about them. Like I said earlier, in politics actions speak louder than words.
Again, I am not sure I understand the last part; since it has not happened ‘in politics’ in the last 63 years how is it to come about other than by first building a political will?
What specific political actions do you propose and realistically speaking, how long will it take to accomplish that? Who (names of likely people) will do it?
Specifics plan please.
3. Finally about Kashmir you wrote the following cryptic lines:
“The wound will continue to fester until it becomes unmanageable and has to be cut off….”
I don’t want to assume anything so can you elaborate what it means? At what point will the ‘wound be considered unmanageable’
Who and what do you propose to be ‘cut off’?
How will it be done?
Thank you
Dear Sunil:
Now let me come to the part that has been truly troubling me because the answers that you give have a direct bearing in my own small World as will become apparent below.
You wrote:
“By your logic it was OK for the Delhi Police to have watched Thousands of Sikhs being burnt in Delhi, just because their was political unrest. There you have just absolved the Delhi Police of criminal negligence. Thank You….”
AND ALSO:
“The republic does not become strong by compromising on its constitution and hoping that some day when it is strong, it will repair the damage. The republic becomes strong by taking a principled stand against any dilution in its values and by having the ability to pay any price to defend it…..”
Let me give you a little background about my real world first.
The issue of Delhi riots is a burning ember in the hearts of the Sikh communities around the world. Every Baisakhi, Gurpurab, Diwali and other major community events, in many Gurudwaras across the US and Canada, when people gather in large numbers those riots are remembered and anti-India feelings are vented out.
In my part of the World, youngsters; many of them who were not even born in 1984 hold stalls handing out literature about the riots, copies of the manuscript titled ‘Who are the Guilty’ and books such as ‘Reduced to Ashes’ etc. and hold vigils.
Needless to say most of them (and their parents) are very angry with India and are against the Indian state. Some even still talk about Khalistan. Now mind you, these are not terrorists by any stretch of imagination. Most of them are straight A students, involved in community work, volunteer at the local hospital and demonstrate ample empathy in their personal lives.
My wife, (who often volunteers there) and I sometimes try to tell them (and their parents) that India is far more than that; and in spite of all the past ugliness, we cannot lose faith in it; only do what ever we can to help make it better. My line of reasoning is exactly what I (and what Dr. Ambedkar wrote once) that is ‘India is a still a weak democracy because even though it has a great constitution, often its people have undemocratic urges and let our country down; and that all of us have to work to make it better’
Their (the teenagers) counter argument is exactly what you wrote (that I am absolving the murderers and the complicit police and to back their claims they say exactly the same thing you say in the second statement, that:
“…the republic does not become strong by……. the republic becomes strong by taking a principled stand against any dilution in its values and by having the ability to pay any price to defend it……”
Their argument is further that although a few well intentioned people like yourself continue to spout the above rhetoric, it is mere words.
The guilty continue to go scot free and in many cases continue to enjoy power and prestige in India even 26 years later. Government after Government came and went, the cases drag on in the Indian courts and while a few small fish are hauled up once in a while, serious justice has been delayed and denied.
So my question to you is this: What should I (or you if you are there instead of me) tell these guys besides the lofty rhetoric that will make them less anti-Indian?
What specifics can I cite other than saying that India is still a work in progress; a weak democracy (such as the way the US was in the 50s, during the time of the Jim Crow South) and that we will have to build a political consensus among the people first, using constitutional methods and till that happens, we must never talk about revenge etc.?
Again, please be very specific.
Thank you.
dear sunil
how i wish bjp and shivsena get 450 seats in the parliament and abrogate art 370(enlighten me if any other political party supports abrogation of art 370)and solve the kashmir problem or the indian problem.
india survives just becos of reservations/special articles for tribals/scheduled castes/lingusitic minorities/religious minorities etc and the day they r removed kindly remember how even the jidhadi islam cannot keep west and east pak together inspite of iron military rule.
Dear Gorki,
Welcome back. My clarifications below.
1. You said – Wasn’t the ‘Akali peaceful’ movement itself called the ‘Dharamyudh’ from the day one when they started sending out peaceful ‘jathas’ for courting arrest? (AFAIK they never directly protested their dismissal; only indirectly using the above methods and grievances). Specifically what part of the Akali movement did you support and what part did you not support?
Am I misunderstanding you? – YES. As you have earlier said the Akali Dharamyudh had several aspects including the ASR, stoppage of wheat from Punjab, burning the constitution etc. I only supported the constitutional and peaceful aspects of their protest and not the Dharamyudh in its entirety. I hope this clarifies my position to you.
2. You said – What specific political actions do you propose and realistically speaking, how long will it take to accomplish that? Who (names of likely people) will do it?
Specifics plan please. – I am more than mildly amused that after postulating on muddleheaded solutions like “we should not rock the boat” and “we should aim to have the consent of the ruled” etc etc you expect me to give you a specific plan with the names and designations of the actors in it. I will choose to ignore this for the time being and explain my plan to you in some more detail. I am sure you understand that in a democracy the actions of the government are supposed to be driven by the will and wishes of the majority. Therefore the only way the Government can act in the manner specified above is if we can mobilize public and intellectual opinion in favor of the idea and make it an election issue. The only way that can happen is if people are aware of the causes of the conflict and the danger that it poses to their succeeding generations. My argument with you is a humble attempt in that direction. I hope that clarifies my position.
3. You said – I don’t want to assume anything so can you elaborate what it means? At what point will the ‘wound be considered unmanageable’
Who and what do you propose to be ‘cut off’?
How will it be done? – Like I have explained earlier, the government acts the way it finds most convenient to act. At this point in time it is most convenient for the government to do nothing and allow Kashmir to simmer. However, I am sure you have observed the attempts of “public intellectuals” like Barkha Dutt and Vir Sanghvi to mobilize opinion on how India is an occupying force in Kashmir and how it would be best for us to let go of it. If the situation is allowed to continue in Kashmir, we will continue to witness periodic Pakistan inspired unrest in Kashmir followed by the wailing of our intellectuals. Once this pattern sets in, it will be a matter of time before public opinion turns in favor of the solution postulated by our intellectuals and it would now suddenly become convenient for the Government to let go of Kashmir (something that the Manmohan Singh Govt was very close to doing in its negotiations with pakistan as disclosed by Musharaff and Pakistani diplomats).
I hope this clarifies the minor points you have raised
I would be grateful if you could also respond to the 15 or so MAJOR points that I have raised. Many Thanks.
Regards
Sunil.
15 or so major points…
Dear Sunil,
I may have missed the specifics of the questions or may be you missed my answers. Can you repeat them? Sorry…
@ Ganapathy
I suggest you change your name to Katua Ganapathy
This is an addendum to my earlier (Feb 21st 1.07 am) post to Sunil:
Dear Sunil,
You earlier wrote:
“…..So we should make our constitution subservient to every bully in the country and hope that after being bullied by religious/caste/community leaders of every denomination, we will automatically become strong some day. If wishes were horses you would be a millionaire many times over my friend….”
AND ALSO
“ The republic becomes strong by taking a principled stand against any dilution in its values and by having the ability to pay any price to defend it…….”
When you post your response, kindly list the specific steps that brought the ‘bullies’ who violated the constitutional rights of thousands of Sikh Indian citizens in 1984 to justice and how many ‘paid any price besides empty rhetoric’ to uphold the constitutional rights of the victims even 26 years later.
That would be very helpful for me because then I would be able to better educate my fellow townspeople in my part of the world as to why India is not a weak democracy.
(The list of the guilty is easily available on the internet).
Feel free to give examples of the punishment meted to them by our (not weak) Republic under the laws of ‘our constitution’ and other steps taken under any administration (including the non congress governments) as well if you have to.
Thank you.
Dear Gorki,
Welcome Back. My apologies for the delay in answering your questions.
My response below.
1. You said – I may have missed the specifics of the questions or may be you missed my answers. Can you repeat them? Sorry… – My post dated February 5, 2011, 7:39 PM – Points 2, 3,4,6. My Post dated February 5, 2011, 10:15 PM points 2 and 3. My post dated February 11, 2011, 10:44 AM point 2. My post dated February 11, 2011, 11:25 AM points 1,2,3,5,6,7. My post dated February 17, 2011, 7:25 PM points 8 and 11. My post dated February 19, 2011, 3:10 PM points 1 and 2.My post dated February 19, 2011, 3:47 PM main point about Bhindranwale. My post dated February 20, 2011, 8:47 AM points 2,6,7,9,10,11,13.
2. You said – In my part of the World, youngsters; many of them who were not even born in 1984 hold stalls handing out literature about the riots, copies of the manuscript titled ‘Who are the Guilty’ and books such as ‘Reduced to Ashes’ etc. and hold vigils. – As long as these pamphlets expose the way the state under the congress absolved its responsibility to protect the constitutional rights of Sikhs from the marauding Congress Goons, more power to them.
3. You said – Needless to say most of them (and their parents) are very angry with India and are against the Indian state. Some even still talk about Khalistan. Now mind you, these are not terrorists by any stretch of imagination. Most of them are straight A students, involved in community work, volunteer at the local hospital and demonstrate ample empathy in their personal lives. – This is exactly what I meant when I said that the state must be strong in the face of communal bullying to stop a vicious circle of competitive violence from starting and going out of hand.
4. You said – My wife, (who often volunteers there) and I sometimes try to tell them (and their parents) that India is far more than that; and in spite of all the past ugliness, we cannot lose faith in it; only do what ever we can to help make it better. – A very admirable stand. My compliments to you and your wife.
5. You said – Their (the teenagers) counter argument is exactly what you wrote (that I am absolving the murderers and the complicit police and to back their claims they say exactly the same thing you say in the second statement, that:
“…the republic does not become strong by……. the republic becomes strong by taking a principled stand against any dilution in its values and by having the ability to pay any price to defend it……”
Their argument is further that although a few well intentioned people like yourself continue to spout the above rhetoric, it is mere words.
The guilty continue to go scot free and in many cases continue to enjoy power and prestige in India even 26 years later. Government after Government came and went, the cases drag on in the Indian courts and while a few small fish are hauled up once in a while, serious justice has been delayed and denied.
So my question to you is this: What should I (or you if you are there instead of me) tell these guys besides the lofty rhetoric that will make them less anti-Indian?
What specifics can I cite other than saying that India is still a work in progress; a weak democracy (such as the way the US was in the 50s, during the time of the Jim Crow South) and that we will have to build a political consensus among the people first, using constitutional methods and till that happens, we must never talk about revenge etc.? – First of all, there is absolutely no doubt that the state has failed in its responsibility to protect the constitutional rights of many of its citizens (including the KPs and the Sikhs who were targeted in the wake of Indira’s assassination). The remedy is not to say we are a weak democracy and we should bow to every other bully (like Bhindranwale or Sajjan Kumar) who challenges the law and try to build consensus (on what by the way). The solution for the young Sikh kids who you meet is for them to come to India and reopen the cases pending in the courts. Generate awareness about how A&^*holes like Kamal Nath have been let scot free and made important ministers in the cabinet of the FIRST SIKH PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA. Only by asserting their constitutional rights and spreading awareness will we be able to force the courts and the state to punish the Guilty of the Pogrom of 1984. Your young friends are most welcome to come here and volunteer for such legal work. However as a disclaimer given my experience with expat NRI Sikh kids, their ideology of “Raj karega Khalsa” and “Khalsa is superior to everything else in the milky way” and “Khalsa was always a separate nation” etc is not welcome.
6. You said – When you post your response, kindly list the specific steps that brought the ‘bullies’ who violated the constitutional rights of thousands of Sikh Indian citizens in 1984 to justice and how many ‘paid any price besides empty rhetoric’ to uphold the constitutional rights of the victims even 26 years later.
That would be very helpful for me because then I would be able to better educate my fellow townspeople in my part of the world as to why India is not a weak democracy.
(The list of the guilty is easily available on the internet).
Feel free to give examples of the punishment meted to them by our (not weak) Republic under the laws of ‘our constitution’ and other steps taken under any administration (including the non congress governments) as well if you have to. – This is exactly my point. We have failed to protect our constitution. We have failed numerous times since independence including the riots of 1984. This does not mean that every time the constitution is put to the test, we hide behind our past failures and bend over again in the hope that some day we will become strong and be able to repair the damage. My thoughts on the pogrom of 1984 and what should be done have already been given above.
Regards
Sunil.
“I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain”
(John Adams; American founding father, President and thinker; implying that building nations is a generational task, not finished in a hurry)
Dear Sunil,
You wrote:
“As long as these pamphlets expose the way the state under the congress absolved its responsibility to protect the constitutional rights of Sikhs from the marauding Congress Goons, more power to them……”
AND
“This is exactly what I meant when I said that the state must be strong in the face of communal bullying……………”
I think you are confusing the role of the state and that of the citizens here. The STATE is not fifteen year olds holding vigils for wrongs done and ignored a quarter century ago. A state is a definite entity; made up of all its organs; the executive (along with the entire administration, civil and military at its command), the legislature, the judiciary, (and perhaps the media). All these make up the state.
Because all these failed and have continued to fail the citizens of Delhi and elsewhere 26 years ago, the kids have to stand up to remind it of its job. It is not the job of 15 year olds to prosecute the guilty; it is that of the state. Moreover the crimes in 1984 were not committed against the Sikhs alone; it was a crime against the state itself. A strong state is one which has a monopoly on all forms of violence; anyone else indulging in such acts without legal sanction challenges and undermines the state.
What you are calling ‘increasing awareness’ I call it building a consensus. On what you asked. My answer to that is to build a consensus on the above paragraph because a state does not exist in a vacuum; it reflects the will of its people. In 1984 what was even more painful than the riots itself was the huge mandate the congress received literally weeks after it had indulged in the worst form of political party inspired rioting in the history of independent India. That was the act that broke the hearts of many who were otherwise nationalist Indians till then.
Today we can reflect back with some understanding and only forgive the electorate for condoning such violence by admitting that our democracy is not mature enough and thus is a work in progress. Words of BR Ambedkar come to mind when he said that the democracy in India is being planted in a very hostile climate; only the topsoil is democratic or words to that effect.
You wrote “However as a disclaimer given my experience with expat NRI Sikh kids, their ideology of “Raj karega Khalsa” and “Khalsa is superior to everything else in the milky way” and “Khalsa was always a separate nation” etc….”
Sunil, you seem like a decent sensitive man and I am sorry that you came across people whose ignorance became apparent from their arrogance. I would love to invite you to our community to see for yourself the kind of kids that are growing up here.
In our community, not only Hindu and Sikh kids but also Gujarati and Kannada kids man those stalls I wrote about earlier, learn Bhangra and participate in Nagar Kirtan and cultural festivals.
It is my hope that someday kids all over India will do the same. At least the omens seem good from what I hear these days.
My offer (inviting you) is a sincere one; if you ever happen to be in these parts (Northern California) my wife and I would love to host you for a few days and show you our community, because underneath, your democratic and humanistic impulses dont seem to be all that different than our own. (If you wish, you may contact me at gorki291@gmail.com)
I have not forgotten about your questions; perhaps most people have lost interest in our two man conversation by now and we can take up our discussion privately on the mail. If not the answers will have to wait till the weekend since I have a couple of meetings to prepare for before then.
Let me know either way.
Regards.
Dear Gorki,
My apologies for the delay in responding to your post.
1. YOU SAID
I think you are confusing the role of the state and that of the citizens here. The STATE is not fifteen year olds holding vigils for wrongs done and ignored a quarter century ago. A state is a definite entity; made up of all its organs; the executive (along with the entire administration, civil and military at its command), the legislature, the judiciary, (and perhaps the media). All these make up the state.
MY RESPONSE
The State is not an extraterrestrial body that exists independent of the citizens. The citizens make up the state and the state is run by citizens. All the organs of the state are made up of citizens, hence for the state to change the citizens have to make that change. Holding vigils with Mombattis will not change the state. Now you might think that the job of 15 year olds is hold mombattis in a vigil, I think that the job of every citizen is to be the change that she/he wants to see in the state. That is why they have a saying in India – Yatha praja, tatha raja.
2. YOU SAID
It is not the job of 15 year olds to prosecute the guilty; it is that of the state. Moreover the crimes in 1984 were not committed against the Sikhs alone; it was a crime against the state itself.
MY RESPONSE
When did I say that it is the job of 15 year olds to prosecute the guilty? It is the job of every responsible citizen to use every constitutional means possible to bring the guilty of 1984 to Justice. But that is not going to happen by holding mombattis on a vigil somewhere in North California. It will happen by using the legal and political system to exert pressure on the organs of the state, which is what I would suggest your young friends to do.
3. YOU SAID
A strong state is one which has a monopoly on all forms of violence; anyone else indulging in such acts without legal sanction challenges and undermines the state.
MY RESPONSE
A state by its definition has monopoly over violence. A strong state is one whose organs (as defined by you) are robust and work vigorously for ensuring the health of the State. And for that to happen, the citizenry has to be vigilant ready to use constitutional means to keep a check on the functioning of those organs. It cannot be achieved by lighting mombattis somewhere in North California.
3. YOU SAID
What you are calling ‘increasing awareness’ I call it building a consensus.
MY RESPONSE
There is a huge difference between consensus and awareness. Please don’t conflate the two.
4. YOU SAID
In 1984 what was even more painful than the riots itself was the huge mandate the congress received literally weeks after it had indulged in the worst form of political party inspired rioting in the history of independent India. That was the act that broke the hearts of many who were otherwise nationalist Indians till then.
Today we can reflect back with some understanding and only forgive the electorate for condoning such violence by admitting that our democracy is not mature enough and thus is a work in progress.
MY RESPONSE
Gorki you make two critical and deeply flawed assumptions in your argument. Assumption 1 – The electorate in India in 1984 voted for the congress on the basis of what happened in Punjab.
Assumption 2 – The electorate was fully aware of what happened in Punjab in 1984 and what was done by the Congress goons after Indira’s death.
Both these assumptions don’t add up in Indian politics.In India Voting decisions are taken on the basis of complex local and national factors based on incomplete knowledge of the facts. The vote of the electorate is not an educated and unequivocal endorsement of all the actions of a political party. Hence my focus on creating an aware and active citizenry that will stop parties from fooling the electorate with rhetoric and hollow promises.
5. YOU SAID
In our community, not only Hindu and Sikh kids but also Gujarati and Kannada kids man those stalls I wrote about earlier, learn Bhangra and participate in Nagar Kirtan and cultural festivals.
MY RESPONSE
I hope that the Sikh kids also learn Dandiya/Garba and participate in Ugadi.
Anyway, I think that we have far digressed from the main topic of constitutional rights and the responsibility of the state to uphold them. You seem to think that since the state is weak, it should compromise on its constitutional values and hope to repair the damage someday when it miraculously becomes strong, while I think that it is the moral responsibility to every citizen to use every constitutional means possible to actively drive the state to strength.
Like Gandhi said – All compromise is based on give and take, but there can be no give and take on fundamentals. Any compromise on mere fundamentals is a surrender. For it is all give and no take.
Regards
Sunil
Dear Sunil:
I think I am going to wrap up this conversation because it has outlived its usefulness on this blog. I will just make some final comments and then leave the field to you.
When I call attention to the weakness of the Indian democracy you assume I am advocating an acceptance of the status quo. It is not the same thing; in fact getting out of denial is the first step to fix things.
Regarding the role of the State and that of the citizens, their respective rights and duties; major texts have been written about it over centuries. One will have to discuss Rousseau and Montesquieu, Hobbes and Locke to understand this. At the heart of it lies the ‘social contract’ between two parties; the State and the Citizen. The citizen is supposed to provide an allegiance to the State in return for a guarantee to certain ‘inalienable rights’. The Indian State lists those as a right to social, economic, political justice, a freedom of speech, worship, belief and faith among other things. Most political theorists believe that when any of those guarantees are withdrawn (or not fulfilled) by the State, then the people have the right to rebel. This has been argued and questioned ad nauseam but this is the principle that formed the legal basis of many a rebellion since (including the Boston Tea Party and the subsequent American Revolution). This principle also forms the basis of checks and balances that distinguishes a constitutional Republic from a tyranny of the majority (the examples of which you gave when you raised the questions of Ayodhya temple\mosque destruction etc. in the name of a majority wish)
The issue of justice for the Delhi riot victims is not something people are ‘unaware’ of. It was something that happened in the very heart of the Republic under the very nose of all the institutions that make up the State and in full and glaring light of the national and the international media. The issue has been there and awareness has been raised for a quarter of the century. Still you write about raising awareness! How unaware do you think is an average educated Indian of what happened? You wrote:
“It is the job of every responsible citizen to use every constitutional means possible to bring the guilty of 1984 to Justice. But that is not going to happen by holding mombattis on a vigil somewhere in North California….It will happen by using the legal and political system to exert pressure on the organs of the state, which is what I would suggest your young friends to do….”
Either you are deliberately trying to rub salt in some very raw wounds using a cruel joke or else you are very naïve and perhaps ill informed.
For a quarter of a century, the Sikh community and its leaders like Khushwant Singh and General Arora among others have filed numerous civil and criminal suits, appealed to all political parties in India, written volumes of papers, provided reams of data and yet ten inquiry commissions later almost none of the criminals have been brought to justice.
Publication after publication has discussed in detail how elaborate steps were taken by the establishment including the police and the politicians to continue to deny justice. A Time article two years ago severely indicted the Indian system of justice saying that while law requires evidence, many of the complaints were never registered; others had their evidence destroyed; many of the surviving victims and witnesses are now dead. I don’t know about India these days but here in the US there is a dictum that says ‘justice delayed is justice denied’.
I doubt there is anyone today inside or outside India who can accuse the Sikhs of not trying hard enough using legal means to get justice. Those vigils I talk of today are a sign of despair and resignation; and an attempt to channelize youthful energy away from hatred and anger.
Please don’t add anymore insult to injury……
Thank you.
Dear Gorki,
I am more than mildly amused by the fact that you choose to ignore most of my points and unilaterally decide to wrap up the conversation. I am also amused by the way you have obfuscated the entire debate. However thanks very much for confirming my suspicions. And one more time here goes my response.
1. YOU SAID –
At the heart of it lies the ‘social contract’ between two parties; the State and the Citizen. The citizen is supposed to provide an allegiance to the State in return for a guarantee to certain ‘inalienable rights’. The Indian State lists those as a right to social, economic, political justice, a freedom of speech, worship, belief and faith among other things. Most political theorists believe that when any of those guarantees are withdrawn (or not fulfilled) by the State, then the people have the right to rebel. This has been argued and questioned ad nauseam but this is the principle that formed the legal basis of many a rebellion since (including the Boston Tea Party and the subsequent American Revolution). This principle also forms the basis of checks and balances that distinguishes a constitutional Republic from a tyranny of the majority (the examples of which you gave when you raised the questions of Ayodhya temple\mosque destruction etc. in the name of a majority wish)
MY RESPONSE
Gorki you have still not understood the basic premise of a nation state. The citizen IS THE STATE. In a democracy with a well defined constitution, the citizen decides what the state should do. The state is not a body that lands from Mars to rule the citizen. The state exists to fulfill the constitutional wishes of the citizens and governs them through representatives selected by the citizens and there is a big difference between failure of governance and failure of a state. The failure of a state is caused by an illiberal and poorly thought out constitution. The failure of governance is caused by unsuitable representatives and the failure of the citizens to recognize them and punish them. The citizens of a nation state don’t overthrow the state when governance fails, they overthrow the government by voting against it. Hence your call to overthrow the state just because governance has failed is like throwing the baby with the bathwater. What will you achieve by overthrowing the Indian state, in the absence of a responsible and educated citizenry, the new state will also fail in its duties irrespective of whether it is called, Khalistan or Pakistan or Bangaldesh or Kashmiristan. In a democracy with a liberal constitution you don’t overthrow the state, you overthrow the government. And please don’t justify colonialism by confusing the American revolution with happened in Punjab. the American revolution and the Boston tea party were not primarily against poor governance, they were against foreign rule. Please read “Common Sense” by Thomas Paine and educate yourself before making such fallacious arguments.
2. YOU SAID –
The issue of justice for the Delhi riot victims is not something people are ‘unaware’ of. It was something that happened in the very heart of the Republic under the very nose of all the institutions that make up the State and in full and glaring light of the national and the international media. The issue has been there and awareness has been raised for a quarter of the century. Still you write about raising awareness! How unaware do you think is an average educated Indian of what happened
MY RESPONSE
Your argument is that an average Indian is aware of what happened and has done nothing to help the Sikh Community. You also seem to think the average Indian has endorsed the Massacre of the Sikhs by voting for the Congress in 1984. You seem to conflating how democracy works in the USA with how it works in India where the average voter has several more considerations and is much more poorly informed about the actual events. This is something I explained in my previous post, however since you wont listen to it let me now pose the very same question back to you
a. If there is awareness about what the congress did to the Sikhs in delhi in 1984, why does the congress keep getting substantial votes and seats in Punjab.
b. If there is awareness about the slogan “Maneka beti sardar ki, quam hai gaddar ki” used by Rajiv Gandhi’s supporters in 1984 when Maneka Gandhi stood against him, why has Punjab elect a Congress Government to the assembly again in 2002.
c. If there is awareness about how the Sikhs were massacred by the Congress Hoodlums why is it that Gurudwaras across the country expressed gratitude to Sonia Gandhi for making Manmohan Singh the first Sikh PM of India.
d. If there is awareness about the Injustice perpetrated by the Congress on the Sikhs in 1984 why did the congress get 45% of the vote in Punjab in the 2009 elections and in 1999.
If I use your logic about there being adequate awareness in India, then there should be even more awareness amongst Sikhs. Therefore by your logic, either the Sikhs are Dumb or suicidal or both to have repeatedly voted a party that has caused them maximum damage since Abdali and Ghalugra. Since the Sikhs are neither dumb nor suicidal , the only logical explanation is that there is a combination of lack of awareness and unwillingness to vote on the basis of this one issue and lack of political mobilization on this issue.
3. YOU SAID
For a quarter of a century, the Sikh community and its leaders like Khushwant Singh and General Arora among others have filed numerous civil and criminal suits, appealed to all political parties in India, written volumes of papers, provided reams of data and yet ten inquiry commissions later almost none of the criminals have been brought to justice.
Publication after publication has discussed in detail how elaborate steps were taken by the establishment including the police and the politicians to continue to deny justice. A Time article two years ago severely indicted the Indian system of justice saying that while law requires evidence, many of the complaints were never registered; others had their evidence destroyed; many of the surviving victims and witnesses are now dead. I don’t know about India these days but here in the US there is a dictum that says ‘justice delayed is justice denied’.
I doubt there is anyone today inside or outside India who can accuse the Sikhs of not trying hard enough using legal means to get justice. Those vigils I talk of today are a sign of despair and resignation; and an attempt to channelize youthful energy away from hatred and anger.
MY RESPONSE
I never said that there have been no efforts to get Justice for the Sikhs of 1984. Also unlike you I don’t believe that it is responsibility of only a General Aurora or Khuswant Singh to get them Justice. It is responsibility of each and every aware citizen of the country to do so. But just because justice has not been served so far and the organs of the state continue to malfunction does not mean that we should get despondent and in a sign of resignation continue to justify the malfunctioning of those organs Vis a Vis Kashmir. By postulating a stand of cowardice, resignation and despondency both WRT to the Congress Pogrom against the Sikhs and the Sunni Muslim Pogrom against the KPs and India you are INSULTING not only the Sikhs and KPs who lost their lives but also the Indian State but also the memory of our Gurus (I assume you are Sikh) who said
Deh SHiva var mohe, shubh karman toh kabhoon na daroon
Na daraon ari soh jab jaye ladon, Nischaya kar apni jeet karoon
As a request, next time don’t obfuscate the debate like you have done this time and keep your muddleheaded and despondent appeals for compromising the Indian Constitution for every two bit communal bully confined to Mombatti Vigils in North California. We don’t need it here, Thank You.
Regards
Sunil.
Dear Sunil,
This is hilarious. You said:
“Gorki you have still not understood the basic premise of a nation state. The citizen IS THE STATE. ……Please read “Common Sense” by Thomas Paine and educate yourself before making such fallacious arguments…….”
Here below is what Thomas Paine himself has to say on this topic:
“SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher….”
(Thomas Paine in common sense)
I think he had someone like you in mind when he wrote ‘some writers…’
Let this above faux pas be a lesson for you. I am thoroughly familiar with the works of Plato, Montesquieu, Hobbes, Locke, etc on the topic of Social contract. Next time, if you feel like dropping some important sounding names around, don’t vaguely ask me to read ‘so and so’. Either quote the relevant passages or else stay out of it.
Next coming to your question about why the people in the great democratic and constitutionally state of Punjab vote for the congress.
I am surprised that you have to ask.
In case people haven’t noticed they vote for the congress alternately because they have no other viable choice. On one side they have a bloody congress party and on the other side the kleptocracy that is the current Akali Dal which is more appropriately called the Badal Dal, Pvt. Ltd. Company, fully supported by the BJP.
Currently it is owned by papa Badal, Sonny Badal, daughter Badal, Daughter in law Badal, son in law Badal, brother in law Badal (all of whom hold or have held ministerial level or other elected positions). Most business interests in the state also, ranging from transport to TV stations are also held by the same private Ltd. Company…..
Now last let us come to your flowery rhetoric regarding the Sikhs. Let us cut to the chase and assume that the entire congress party is made up of the scum of the earth so nothing can be expected out of them. Fine with me.
You wrote:
“Also unlike you I don’t believe that it is responsibility of only a General Aurora or Khushwant Singh to get them Justice. It is responsibility of each and every aware citizen of the country to do so….”
Really; that is a very, very big statement; responsibility of ‘each and every aware citizen…’ Hmmm!
Do you think then that the former home minister, Shri L.K. Advani is an unaware citizen? A.B. Vajpayee? Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley, Ananth Kumar? Navjot Sidhu? Are all these also unaware citizens?
If not what has been their contribution besides empty words like yours?
What did any one of these do when they were running the Union government?
Before that?
Since then?
The current Chief justice of India; is he also an unaware citizen?
All the other the chief justices since 1984? Unaware too? If not did any of them care to take a suo moto notice of any of the millions of the news reports?
The current Police chief of Delhi, Pst chiefs?
The attorney General? Past attorney generals? all of them blissfully unaware?
If not then any one of these above mentioned worthies read a report with dates names, actions, etc. called ‘Who are the guilty’? If so, what action if any against any of the heavy weight culprits?
If people like me have become despondent and I now call any more talk about justice a joke it is because it has become one; a cruel one because for all the talk of still providing the ever elusive ‘justice’ many of the survivors are now dead and there is no way to help or harm them any more.
Some justice and some unaware citizens; my foot!
Before calling what I do ‘cowardice’ kindly tell me what have you done, in your individual capacity as an ‘informed’ citizen to get justice for the riot victims and what do you have to show for your efforts?
What blog or citizen support groups do you run, how many victims have you helped?
You see empty rhetoric comes easy; it doesn’t cost anything.
A few years ago I got into an argument with a very bitter man trying to defend the Indian Republic on the exact same topic. In the end he sneeringly told me that:
“When you get justice from your Indian Government send me a post card or an email, till then keep your rhetoric to yourself….”
You have my email address above, when I hear from you that justice has been done, I will forward the news to him. Till then I will not hold my breath any time soon…..
Have a good day.
Here is what you wrote:
“It is the job of every responsible citizen to use every constitutional means possible to bring the guilty of 1984 to Justice. But that is not going to happen by holding mombattis on a vigil somewhere in North California……”
And here below is reality; of the ‘Republic’.
A quick search on the net about what the ‘aware’ and ‘responsible’ leadership of the BJP and the Akali Dal is doing; (and something they only remember when out of the Union Government). Or maybe their Mombattis are ‘constitutional ones’ compared to the ones our kids carry here.
Read the news clip and the date below:
“New Kerala.com New Delhi, Nov 2, 2010
The opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) led by its senior leader Arun Jaitley Tuesday took out a candle-light march here to demand punishment for those guilty in the 1984 anti-Sikh riots.
Addressing the workers, Jaitley blamed the Congress for the murder of thousands of Sikhs in the aftermath of the assassination of then prime minister Indira Gandhi in 1984.
“It is regrettable that today one of the Sikhs is the prime minister but he is unable to ensure justice to the Sikhs. Not a single guilty person of the riots has been punished. Due to delay in justice, there is great anger among the community,” he said.
BJP workers tried to march from Jantar Mantar in central Delhi to parliament, but were taken into preventive custody midway.
Leaders of Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) also took part in the march.
Akali Dal MP Harsimrat Kaur Badal said the Congress was trying to defend its leaders Sajjan Kumar and Jagdish Tytler and this had angered the community……”
In case you are still wondering why I feel debating with you is a waste of time!!
Enjoy
Dear Gorki,
First of all, welcome back again
Your ability to obfuscate and attribute things things to me that I have not said and declare a victory continue to amaze me.
YOU SAID
This is hilarious.
MY Response
Yes it is. Because you confuse a citizen for society and Government for the State. Notwithstanding your knowledge about the social contract you seem to be very adept at conflating terminologies as and when it suits you. My request to you is to please refrain from such obfuscations. And since you know everything about Plato, Montesquieu, Hobbes, Locke, etc please enlighten us as to how you can compare the insurgency in Punjab with the Boston tea party or the American revolution – a point you conveniently chose to ignore amidst your self congratulatory ramblings.
YOU SAID
In case people haven’t noticed they vote for the congress alternately because they have no other viable choice. On one side they have a bloody congress party and on the other side the kleptocracy that is the current Akali Dal which is more appropriately called the Badal Dal, Pvt. Ltd. Company, fully supported by the BJP.
Currently it is owned by papa Badal, Sonny Badal, daughter Badal, Daughter in law Badal, son in law Badal, brother in law Badal (all of whom hold or have held ministerial level or other elected positions). Most business interests in the state also, ranging from transport to TV stations are also held by the same private Ltd. Company…..
Now last let us come to your flowery rhetoric regarding the Sikhs. Let us cut to the chase and assume that the entire congress party is made up of the scum of the earth so nothing can be expected out of them. Fine with
MY RESPONSE
So you do agree that people in India have other considerations when voting. Therefore your assumption that the overwhelming majority for the Congress in 1984 was an endorsement of what they did to the Sikhs is fatally flawed as I pointed out earlier. Phew that was not so difficult was it?
YOU SAID
Do you think then that the former home minister, Shri L.K. Advani is an unaware citizen? A.B. Vajpayee? Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley, Ananth Kumar? Navjot Sidhu? Are all these also unaware citizens?
If not what has been their contribution besides empty words like yours?
What did any one of these do when they were running the Union government?
Before that?
Since then?
The current Chief justice of India; is he also an unaware citizen?
All the other the chief justices since 1984? Unaware too? If not did any of them care to take a suo moto notice of any of the millions of the news reports?
The current Police chief of Delhi, Pst chiefs?
The attorney General? Past attorney generals? all of them blissfully unaware?
If not then any one of these above mentioned worthies read a report with dates names, actions, etc. called ‘Who are the guilty’? If so, what action if any against any of the heavy weight culprits?
If people like me have become despondent and I now call any more talk about justice a joke it is because it has become one; a cruel one because for all the talk of still providing the ever elusive ‘justice’ many of the survivors are now dead and there is no way to help or harm them any more.
MY RESPONSE
Yes they have failed the country as have many others on many other occasions. That does not mean that you want them fail again on Kashmir. No more obfuscations please.
YOU SAID
Before calling what I do ‘cowardice’ kindly tell me what have you done, in your individual capacity as an ‘informed’ citizen to get justice for the riot victims and what do you have to show for your efforts?
MY RESPONSE
Let me assure you I have done more than lighting mombattis in North California and teaching Bhangra to Kannada kids.
YOU SAID
Or maybe their Mombattis are ‘constitutional ones’ compared to the ones our kids carry here.
MY RESPONSE
I never said your mombattis were unconstitutional, I said they were useless same for those held by Jaitley and the Badal boys and girls. Please stop attributing things to me that I have never said just because you have no answer to the 15 or so points that I have raised earlier (which also you chose to conveniently ignore despite making your nth comeback after declaring that you will be closing the discussion).
Regards
Sunil
PS. Knowing you, I have a feeling this isn’t over yet
@Gorki
You said:
1. Establish a national economic recovery and reconstruction plan that
focuses on encouraging tourism and international investment in order to reduce
unemployment, the recruiting base for insurgents. 2. Develop an information campaign that focuses on reconciling the Kashmiri and Indian government in order to begin winning back popular support in J&K. 3. Continue to use the military and information as the primary instruments of national power to fight Islamic extremists and traditionalists who will continue to exist in Kashmir regardless of any peace deal with separatists. It is primarily in this context that I made the comment to not ‘rock the boat’ till the job is done. ”
I think you do not understand that the Indian government has been pouring a great deal of money for these people, they have it quite good because the place is like a black hole that consumes all funds and shows no outcome. People in places like Sikkim were won over because the government built a great deal of infrastructure, but helping the develop works because their culture is Hindu-Buddhist. Its the culture of these people, Kashmir valley I hear is now filthy and dirty, after the Pandits left the educational starndards have shrunk to abysmal levels. You have to think what do these people want? They are free to worship in their temples, they controlled the valley in terms of everything, if you were non Muslim it was almost to start a business because of discrimination of non-Muslims, now they have kicked out all the Hindus out of the valley who have as much a right to the valley as they do, they live off the money of the State (a citizen in Bihar by contrast gets only a few hundred per capita as compared to these people), if they cannot improve it is wholly their fault, and the fact that they have shot themselves in the foot as regards crafts and furnitutre and carpet industry does not make it better. The unscrupulousness was such that no one wants to buy Kashmiri carpets outside India as people are tired of getting bad quality and being over charged. Its the mentality of these people that needs a change if anything, Kashmir valley does not belong to them alone but to Hindus and Buddhists who also have been living there for centuries and bravely resisted converstion at the hands of Muslims for centuries. Read the lager history of Kashmir, the persecution of Pandits was horrible through centuries, what they recently suffered is just a continuation of what they suffered in their own lands with the arrival of Islam and the recent exodus is a repeat of what has been going in the history of Kashmir for centuries. They were targeted unlike the Sikhs as they were seen as a threat because they had refused to convert over the centuries despite all pressures…
Smart country… still US, Uk, aussies flock malaysia… the country gives them what they want, bars, nightclubs, massage parlours… at the same time protects its own people from predatory evangelists…
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/07/malaysian-police-arrests-christians-for-trying-to-convert-muslims-later-frees-them—-it-was-all-a-m.html
lol this clown Gorki is still here batting for his Jihadist brothers.
He would make a good dhimmi.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zENuDflPejY/RyEfGz41VcI/AAAAAAAAAvY/2j1MmLhis1c/s320/TheDhimmiAward%5B1%5D.gif
interesting and useful set of slides on the events of post-1947 Kashmir shared by Shantanu at the London school of economics last week:
http://www.slideshare.net/jaihind/jammu-kashmir-lse-mar-11
Amid the fog of disinformation that is created by the ELM and opportunists like Geelani, this serves as a useful recall tool.
Waited until winter ended to add this comment. As was mentioned earlier, ‘fragile peace’ in Kashmir touted by pro-jihadi leftists coincides with winter. Come summer, it is open house. no surprise.
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/nearly-450-militants-waiting-to-infiltrate-into-jk-says-army/20110426.htm
http://in.news.yahoo.com/video/national-22564751/kashmiris-condemn-the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden-25089157.html
These are the people that the congress and its secularist losers appease and support.
And these people.
http://viigo.im/6rIb
Must See Pic -
http://is.gd/NWlEs4
Once upon a time the Vedic culture was spread as far as terretories of Afghan. There still are cities there that have reference in Mahabharat. Many refrain from calling India as Bharat or Hindustan. As bad as politicians are, we have to realize, they are mere reflection of people voting them to power. This is result of abondonment of “chaturvarna system”, which was founded on basis of skills and inclination of people, and each varna with respect and gratitude; and replacement of that by moeny-is-all-that-matters system. Today whatever is left of so called kshtriyas have lost their mettle, brahmins are left to do rituals with some mantras they have learned from parents – not understanding a word of what they are saying meant, vaishya and shudras (not kshudras) – where most people (from all vernas) have gravitated to – due to moeny-is-all-that-matters attitude. And those that are holding on to whatever, sometimes fervently, either don’t know or forget or have misconception what is at base of whatever/whoever they believe siad. We are splitting up rapidly from what once held us all together, reasons abound – have-havenot (money, power, knowledge …), misconstrued vernas, external forces. Unity is what allowed britishers to rule us. They saw already broken varna system, and didn’t take a genius to figure what they needed to do. Our selfish politicians since then have continued “divide and conquer”. So don’t be surprised to things getting worse and worse, do the right thing to turn the tide around.